Inclined Bed Therapy - Sleeping With The Head End Of The Bed Elevated

[JayDee]

"Best Kept Secret That Peatarians Never Knew..."
and also the closest thing to a Magic Bullet, IMO.

I learned about it some 9 years ago, but I had to theoretically "get it" (OMG!!) before I finally started it... (now 15 months into it with many great effects).

[varicose veins] There's an old thread somewhere on that forum that shows progress of someone healing them... Might be this one:
Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema? | Page 1 | Naked Science Forum

 

[JayDee]

Maybe my biggest wish for IBT is for a good biologist to look into the old theory for sap flow by J.C. Bose, explain it to the layman, and have knowledgeable people share opinions if they think Bose already figured it out, or if Andrew Fletcher won it...?

Probably some time after Ray's reply you already saw in this thread, I asked him this (Nov 2017) ...

Subject: Did J.C. Bose already have TRUE theory for sap flow in trees...?

Just in case you're familiar with those writings of Bose too... (The Physiology of the Ascent of Sap (1923), etc.)

I think I've seen around 8 theories for sap flow... There's one in Pollack's The Fourth Phase of Water, etc.

My friend Atom Bergstrom [aware of IBT] has read his share of Bose and feels that Bose probably proved the true workings of sap flow with over 200 experiments...

Is that something you would agree with...? ( ~solved long ago, but forgotten?)

Or was some percentage still lacking...?

REPLY:

Ray Peat: I think Bose was right. The reason people scoffed at his idea was similar to the reason people scoffed at the idea that nerves have a contractile movement during the conduction of an impulse, or that heat generation is continuous, not saltatory, between the nodes of myelinated nerves. The people who explain the movement of sap by transpiration and “capillary attraction” don’t like to think about guttation, which is most obvious at 100% relative humidity when there’s no transpiration. It’s just one place where the ignorance of official biology is very visible, and the funny thing is that biologists aren’t embarrassed by it.
- - - - - - -

To not overtax Ray, I did not explicitly push and ask if he totally understood the IBT theory and would consider it in his reply...

My hunch is that undoubtedly Andrew proved something with his theory, but that it is too early to use it to explain a lot of things the way he does. It feels slightly too mechanical to me. And AFAIK, it only has one or a few proofs vs. the many by Bose for his theory...?

Andrew is aware of this, but does not seem inclined to look into this deeper... Seeing the results he's getting, and the seemingly false theories he *did* look into, he seems confident his theory is the one (or afraid it may not be?). Me, I first want some expert biologists to consider at least Andrew vs. Bose.

Although I also think Andrew has an understandable bias I don't always agree with, I cannot stress enough what a #1 Nice Bloke he is (as a person and giving this away for free).

The Bose theories are in several of his books probably, and maybe this one solely devoted to it...
Internet Archive Search: The Physiology of the Ascent of Sap

 

[charlie]

I'm in. Planning on how to raise the bed now.

 

[Taotatoes]

https://m.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/art/50278335/ for people who use slatted bed frames. Not sure if it has multiple settings... perhaps it’s just for sitting...

 

[x-ray peat]

Maybe my biggest wish for IBT is for a good biologist to look into the old theory for sap flow by J.C. Bose, explain it to the layman, and have knowledgeable people share opinions if they think Bose already figured it out, or if Andrew Fletcher won it...?

Probably some time after Ray's reply you already saw in this thread, I asked him this (Nov 2017) ...

Subject: Did J.C. Bose already have TRUE theory for sap flow in trees...?

Just in case you're familiar with those writings of Bose too... (The Physiology of the Ascent of Sap (1923), etc.)

I think I've seen around 8 theories for sap flow... There's one in Pollack's The Fourth Phase of Water, etc.

My friend Atom Bergstrom [aware of IBT] has read his share of Bose and feels that Bose probably proved the true workings of sap flow with over 200 experiments...

Is that something you would agree with...? ( ~solved long ago, but forgotten?)

Or was some percentage still lacking...?

REPLY:

Ray Peat: I think Bose was right. The reason people scoffed at his idea was similar to the reason people scoffed at the idea that nerves have a contractile movement during the conduction of an impulse, or that heat generation is continuous, not saltatory, between the nodes of myelinated nerves. The people who explain the movement of sap by transpiration and “capillary attraction” don’t like to think about guttation, which is most obvious at 100% relative humidity when there’s no transpiration. It’s just one place where the ignorance of official biology is very visible, and the funny thing is that biologists aren’t embarrassed by it.
- - - - - - -

To not overtax Ray, I did not explicitly push and ask if he totally understood the IBT theory and would consider it in his reply...

My hunch is that undoubtedly Andrew proved something with his theory, but that it is too early to use it to explain a lot of things the way he does. It feels slightly too mechanical to me. And AFAIK, it only has one or a few proofs vs. the many by Bose for his theory...?

Andrew is aware of this, but does not seem inclined to look into this deeper... Seeing the results he's getting, and the seemingly false theories he *did* look into, he seems confident his theory is the one (or afraid it may not be?). Me, I first want some expert biologists to consider at least Andrew vs. Bose.

Although I also think Andrew has an understandable bias I don't always agree with, I cannot stress enough what a #1 Nice Bloke he is (as a person and giving this away for free).

The Bose theories are in several of his books probably, and maybe this one solely devoted to it...
Internet Archive Search: The Physiology of the Ascent of Sap

Thanks for all the good info.

I wasnt familiar with Bose but after looking into it, it seems that his theory of a vital force that relies on living cells is disproven when it can be shown that dead xylem can still transport water upwards. Also it's been noted that the rate of contractions in xylem cells is much too slow to account for the rate of water transport. (see below).

Fletcher's experiments lifting water up a cliff through differential densities seems pretty compelling and also accounts for Ray's comment that xylem flow still occurs during 100% RH which wouldn't impact the flow due to a density gradient as much as it would if only transpiration was the driving force. Also Bose's theory doesnt explain the IBT phenomenon whereas Fletchers theory seems to be very consistent.

I found a good summary of the many theories out there.
Ascent of Sap: 3 Theories | Translocation in Plants

"(b) Bose’s Pulsatory Movement Theory:
Sir J.C. Bose (1923) proposed a vital theory for the ascent of sap. He experimentally showed that the living cells of the innermost layer of the cortex were in a state of pulsatory motion, i.e., alternate expansion and contraction. This pulsation, according to him, caused the pumping of water from cell to cell in an upward direction.

On expansion the cells absorbed water from the lower cells and on contraction water was pumped into the next higher cells. Bose also observed that for one pulsation (i.e., contraction and expansion) it took 14 seconds to several minutes. This pulsation was called by J.C. Bose as the ‘heart-beating of plants’.

It has been estimated that the sap must flow through 230 to 400 pulsatory cells per second to account for the normal rate of ascent of sap. But it was already estimated by Bose that for one pulsation it took a minimum of 14 seconds. So, the theory could not explain satisfactorily the mechanism of ascent of sap and thus discarded.

 

[x-ray peat]

I'm in. Planning on how to raise the bed now.

look into the pvc pipe method once you buildup to your preferred height. The books/bricks method makes moving your bed for whatever reason a pain,

 

[charlie]

look into the pvc pipe method once you buildup to your preferred height. The books/bricks method makes moving your bed for whatever reason a pain,

The thing is I just have a box spring and mattress directly on the floor right now so I am thinking of doing this:

A very sturdy wooden bed frame for Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) - Inclined Bed Therapy IBT - Restore & Support Your Health

 

[x-ray peat]

The thing is I just have a box spring and mattress directly on the floor right now so I am thinking of doing this:

A very sturdy wooden bed frame for Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) - Inclined Bed Therapy IBT - Restore & Support Your Health

That would work. could make it look nice with a little natural stain

 

[Capt Nirvana]

Thanks for all the good info.

I wasnt familiar with Bose but after looking into it, it seems that his theory of a vital force that relies on living cells is disproven when it can be shown that dead xylem can still transport water upwards. Also it's been noted that the rate of contractions in xylem cells is much too slow to account for the rate of water transport. (see below).

Fletcher's experiments lifting water up a cliff through differential densities seems pretty compelling and also accounts for Ray's comment that xylem flow still occurs during 100% RH which wouldn't impact the flow due to a density gradient as much as it would if only transpiration was the driving force. Also Bose's theory doesnt explain the IBT phenomenon whereas Fletchers theory seems to be very consistent.

I found a good summary of the many theories out there.
Ascent of Sap: 3 Theories | Translocation in Plants

"(b) Bose’s Pulsatory Movement Theory:
Sir J.C. Bose (1923) proposed a vital theory for the ascent of sap. He experimentally showed that the living cells of the innermost layer of the cortex were in a state of pulsatory motion, i.e., alternate expansion and contraction. This pulsation, according to him, caused the pumping of water from cell to cell in an upward direction.

On expansion the cells absorbed water from the lower cells and on contraction water was pumped into the next higher cells. Bose also observed that for one pulsation (i.e., contraction and expansion) it took 14 seconds to several minutes. This pulsation was called by J.C. Bose as the ‘heart-beating of plants’.

It has been estimated that the sap must flow through 230 to 400 pulsatory cells per second to account for the normal rate of ascent of sap. But it was already estimated by Bose that for one pulsation it took a minimum of 14 seconds. So, the theory could not explain satisfactorily the mechanism of ascent of sap and thus discarded.

So Bose's rate is 14 times slower? Who estimated the faster flow rate?

 

[x-ray peat]

So Bose's rate is 14 times slower? Who estimated the faster flow rate?

I think it's based on observation of sap flows. You could probably get a good approximation using a sap tap. The rate of pulsing required to generate that flow could then be calculated

 

[andrewkfletcher]

Thanks for discussing IBT. If can help please let me know.

Kind regards

Andrew

 

[charlie]

Thanks for discussing IBT. If can help please let me know.

Kind regards

Andrew

Mr. Fletcher, such a blessing to have you here to discuss inclined bed therapy. Welcome to the forum.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I've listened to a slew of Andrew Fletcher's Interviews, and there is one thing (of many) that is potentially huge and will likely be of interest for everyone on this forum. According to the medical literate, everyone's temperature usually drops about 2 degrees around 3am or so. According to one of Andrew's experiments, he was able to measure this drop in temp while sleeping flat, but his temperature never dropped while sleeping inclined.

My personal experience indicates this to be true. I have had warmer hands and feet, especially upon waking, ever since I started. I have only measured my waking temp a few times, but every time it has been 98.6. Through a lot of Peat's ideas, it basically raised from 97.0 to about 98.0 upon waking (and doing nothing else), but 98.6 has been really impressive.

I heard it in this interview (may also be in others)

Temp discussion at 1:06:54

 

[tankasnowgod]

Mr. Fletcher, such a blessing to have you here to discuss inclined bed therapy. Welcome to the forum.

100% Agree!

 

[andrewkfletcher]

Mr. Fletcher, such a blessing to have you here to discuss inclined bed therapy. Welcome to the forum.

Thanks, Andrew is ok by me and happy to be of some use.

 

[andrewkfletcher]

I've listened to a slew of Andrew Fletcher's Interviews, and there is one thing (of many) that is potentially huge and will likely be of interest for everyone on this forum. According to the medical literate, everyone's temperature usually drops about 2 degrees around 3am or so. According to one of Andrew's experiments, he was able to measure this drop in temp while sleeping flat, but his temperature never dropped while sleeping inclined.

My personal experience indicates this to be true. I have had warmer hands and feet, especially upon waking, ever since I started. I have only measured my waking temp a few times, but every time it has been 98.6. Through a lot of Peat's ideas, it basically raised from 97.0 to about 98.0 upon waking (and doing nothing else), but 98.6 has been really impressive.

I heard it in this interview (may also be in others)

Temp discussion at 1:06:54

This difference in temperature is more important than one might think. Viruses and bacterium pathogens don't like the warmer environment. Our defence against such infections is to raise our temperature, possibly be increased viscosity of fluids, inflammation and the additional friction that it causes as our thicker fluids are forced through narrower vessels.

That old adage "you caught a chill" most likely referred to a sudden drop in temperature, followed by sweats / fever which often raises temperature above normal. Wrapping up to keep core temperature high, which was often practised, led to many deaths during the sweating sickness and other plagues.

High humidity is another threat that causes our body to overheat. We need to evaporate water to maintain our circulation and to regulate body temperature. So being subjected to high humidity, causes evaporation to slow down, leading to increased fluid on the lungs, followed by stagnation and inevitable infection. Research head of the bed up and pneumonia as search terms. Intensive care patients have less chance of developing pneumonia when the head end of the bed is raised.

IBT also prevents overheating and reduces sweating while sleeping.

 

[x-ray peat]

@andrewkfletcher Hello Andrew, thanks so much for your amazing discovery and willingness to work to make it better known, and helping us in particular on this forum.
I have a couple of questions:
1) I like many other have noticed a darker more cloudy urine from IBT. This seems different from what you would get from dehydration. Is there something different chemically in the urine that is making it cloudy? Like additional sugars or proteins?
2) I recently raised my bed from 6" to 8" and find it to be equally comfortable (queen size bed). Is there any advantage to doing this if comfort is not sacrificed or is 6" (5 degree incline) still the optimal?

thanks

 

[andrewkfletcher]

Darker morning urine has been observed and reported and increased odour too. I'm not familiar with cloudy urine reports, though given we have shown in a trial the blood sugar levels are reduced in diabetes type 2, it is indeed possible that excess sugars are excreted. It may be worth having a urine analysis to determine if you have increased protein that could be from infection or from increased protein excretion on IBT. Weight loss has also been reported many times, which suggests less of the food is being stored as fat. That said, muscle density increases on IBT. In fact muscle density loss from wearing a plaster cast "Which always happens" does not appear to when sleeping on an incline.

Initially there is a detox effect, where sediment including metals migrates towards the kidneys and ultimate excretion through bladder. This migration of sediment would also alter our circulation. Could this be what your observing?

 

[tankasnowgod]

This difference in temperature is more important than one might think. Viruses and bacterium pathogens don't like the warmer environment. Our defence against such infections is to raise our temperature, possibly be increased viscosity of fluids, inflammation and the additional friction that it causes as our thicker fluids are forced through narrower vessels.

That old adage "you caught a chill" most likely referred to a sudden drop in temperature, followed by sweats / fever which often raises temperature above normal. Wrapping up to keep core temperature high, which was often practised, led to many deaths during the sweating sickness and other plagues.

High humidity is another threat that causes our body to overheat. We need to evaporate water to maintain our circulation and to regulate body temperature. So being subjected to high humidity, causes evaporation to slow down, leading to increased fluid on the lungs, followed by stagnation and inevitable infection. Research head of the bed up and pneumonia as search terms. Intensive care patients have less chance of developing pneumonia when the head end of the bed is raised.

IBT also prevents overheating and reduces sweating while sleeping.

This is really interesting. There has been a recent heat and humidity wave where I live, and during similar waves in the past, I have often woken up with sweat soaked sheets, usually in the middle of the night. I've only been sleeping with one sheet, but I have not woken up sweaty any time this week. I had been thinking about how the effects of humidity might be affecting respiration during this recent wave.

 

[andrewkfletcher]

A Queen size bed is raised 7" to achieve five degrees, so you adding an additional inch should be fine. I have had reports from people who have increased the angle and some find it does improve their conditions more, though this could be coincidental or it might have additional benefits in some conditions. We used a higher elevation for people with spinal cord injury to aid damaged nerves to reconnect and though this may sound simplistic, we did see some amazing reponses in complete spinal cord injury (2 years post injury without any recovery of sensation or function )