Incels: A Result of Technology?

[IPlayDart]

Incels wouldn’t exist in a world where technology and the internet weren’t there.

I don’t see any Incels in hunter- gatherer and primitive tribes. It seems to be a modern problem caused by modern things. The internet and technology waste a lot of time and most people have zero social interaction in their lives due to that. Videogames, porn, movies, it all consumes a ton of one‘s time. Back in the day it was completely normal to start conversations in the bus or train with strangers, because looking outside the window would get boring after a while. Nowadays everybody is just staring at their phone. No humanity, no warmth, no social interactions.

An unnatural problem requires unnatural solutions.
The question is: what is the solution for this?

 

[FrostedShores]

Read Ted Kaczynski or Jacques Ellul?

Also, don't romanticize the past. Pretending like hunter-gatherer societies were some kind of paradise is part of the 'noble savage' fallacy. In pre-modern times, anywhere from 60 to 80% of men were unable to pass on their genetics. The child mortality rate was so high that even for those able to have sex, the likelihood that their offspring would survive was incredibly low. If we still lived under those conditions, most of us would not have survived past the age of six, so statistically, it's unlikely you'd even be here at all.

When you say technology, I think you mainly mean social media. If you want to have face-to-face interactions with people and be part of a community, the answer is quite simple: go to church. I'm not religious myself, and I know it's not a popular answer given that religion is often demonized in our culture, but there's a reason religious people consistently report higher levels of happiness and community involvement. And if you don't like one church, seek out another. They each have their own feel and social norms. Other than that, maybe join a sports league.

 

[IPlayDart]

Read Ted Kaczynski or Jacques Ellul?

Also, don't romanticize the past. Pretending like hunter-gatherer societies were some kind of paradise is part of the 'noble savage' fallacy. In pre-modern times, anywhere from 60 to 80% of men were unable to pass on their genetics. The child mortality rate was so high that even for those able to have sex, the likelihood that their offspring would survive was incredibly low. If we still lived under those conditions, most of us would not have survived past the age of six, so statistically, it's unlikely you'd even be here at all.

When you say technology, I think you mainly mean social media. If you want to have face-to-face interactions with people and be part of a community, the answer is quite simple: go to church. I'm not religious myself, and I know it's not a popular answer given that religion is often demonized in our culture, but there's a reason religious people consistently report higher levels of happiness and community involvement. And if you don't like one church, seek out another. They each have their own feel and social norms. Other than that, maybe join a sports league.

Neither of them, although I heard about Ted. Why?

 

[-Luke-]

Technology (and especially artificial sexual stimulation) is one part, and probably an important part. But I think this development started before the internet. Before the sexual revolution, emancipation and migration from smaller towns/villages to cities (I'm writing this without any rating, just as a possible explanation), more people got laid by marrying some similar girl/guy from their area or their highschool sweetheart in their 20s or early 30s. In the hookup culture, the top x% of men get more attention from women, while the bottom x% don't get any at all (while they were more likely to find a wife decades ago, due to societal pressure).

 

[FrostedShores]

Neither of them, although I heard about Ted. Why?

They wrote about the impact of technology on humanity, and how technology has contributed to the breakdown of society. They each made some insightful and prescient observations.

 

[IPlayDart]

They wrote about the impact of technology on humanity, and how technology has contributed to the breakdown of society. They each made some insightful and prescient observations.

Well, they’re not wrong. Technology is the root cause of evil.
Although there was a TON more rape and murder before high- speed internet. Rape and murder was the norm in cities, before cameras existed.

 

[Luann]

.

 

[FrostedShores]

Well, they’re not wrong. Technology is the root cause of evil.
Although there was a TON more rape and murder before high- speed internet. Rape and murder was the norm in cities, before cameras existed.

I don't think technology is the root of evil. This might sound cliche, but technology is a tool. A tool cannot be evil; only the person using the tool can be.

Modern technology, with things like social media and AI, is tricky, though, because it impacts the person using it; so it creates a kind of feedback loop, where if the person is naturally inclined towards evil/negativity/nihilism/whatever, then the technology hijacks that natural inclination and can push a person towards greater evil/negativity/etc. But I still think the starting point is the person themselves; not the technology.

And in terms of crime, crime has been steadily increasing for quite some time now, despite access to high-speed internet.

 

[-Luke-]

Although there was a TON more rape and murder before high- speed internet.

I think that's a myth, made up by the porn industry. But I'm willing to change my mind. Do you have any evidence for that statement?

 

[Milk Consumer]

There has always been incels. We have about twice as many female ancestors as males. The problem was minimized previously by enforced monogamy in most societies. This is not about technology, but about biology.

 

[grapes]

No it's not technology (though technology and increased productivity plays a role) There are several causes: abolition of patriarchy, female solidarity, divorce, greater support of women by society, child support, welfare...
Imagine this, all men together decide the following (and stick to this): they will only have sex for free with the top 10% of the most attractive women, all other women should somehow invest into men to have sex, or a relation, and the less attractive they (women) are the more they should invest. At the same time, while having sex, men have control on whether it will result in pregnancy or no. They know also that in case of having a child, they can freely walk away from a relation, the child will most probably stay with them, and they will be able to sustain him and themselves with child support and welfare, maybe working part time. They also know that even walking away from a relation they are sure to get sex, because the opposite sex has greater need of it and it is just a matter of sending a hint to a potential partner that they want it.
This situation is impossible, but it illustrates women' situation today.

 

[grapes]

On the account of technology, social networks and dating sites have worsened the situation. Today women can have sex with a men they want, outside of their close circle, and noone will know it. Sometimes it happens while being in a relation. So it allows women to have easier access to men they find attractive and ignore others.

 

[area51puy]

It he rise of incels has more to with technology effecting the female brain then males. Females options prior to the internet was people around them in schools , work and chance encounters around parks , malls , bars clubs mostly and in those encounters could you get a number , a date and then could you convert dates into sex or relationships.

So it’s a lot harder to in person to convert encounters into dates and relationships because you are being compared to the hundreds of tinder matches and dms in instagram of basically pictures and their imagination and idealization the put on these online profiles.
Where before they could only compare you to people around them and people in movies and tv or magazines which women would fantasize about but was considered a pipe dream because a chance encounter highly unlikely and that’s why you would see thousands of screaming women at Beatles , Elvis and more recently Justin Bieber concerts because that was their one chance to get noticed.

Now non celebrities can have thousands of followers create online profiles that look like you are having a great life and that would intrigue women.

Women can have many multiple partners without being shamed so they will go for attractive males and have sex with them hoping to convert into marriage, but ultimately those use them for sex and the emotional damage that does makes it harder for them to have stable relationships later in and when they find a decent guy in their level that would marry them they feel like they are settling in looks , money or status because they could have sex with the good looking, high status and guys with money , but those guys would never marry them. Which lead to resentment in the female brain when they are in a relationship with guy on their level. Then that lead to breakups and divorce.

It’s really womens unrealistic expectations and leads to incels.

To put in perspective if the situation was reversed and women wanted sex like guys and guys were more choosey and they could have sexual encounter with models and the hottest women in town but could never convince them to marry them. They ultimately would have to settle for women not as hot and would notice the flaws in women like a few extra pounds , sagging boobs. Crows feet. And in the back in there mind they would think I could just go back on the market and have random sex with the hottest girls in town and you never now I might convince one to settle down. And would have constant reminders in their dms with these hot chick hitting on them.

 

[area51puy]

I think this woman sums up what a lot of women in there teens , 20’s and 30’s are going through and how they have been manipulated by society and ultimately the realization they come to later.



“women can all too easily fail to recognize that being desired is not the same thing as being held in high esteem.”
Louise Perry

I Regret Being A Slut

Upon opening Louise Perry’s new book, The Case Against the Sexual Revolution: A New Guide to Sex in the 21st Century, I’m moved to tears by the dedication: “For the women who learned it the hard way” Unlike many other people who have read and reviewed Perry’s work, reading her book wouldn’t be...

bridgetphetasy.substack.com

Upon opening Louise Perry’s new book, The Case Against the Sexual Revolution: A New Guide to Sex in the 21st Century, I’m moved to tears by the dedication:

“For the women who learned it the hard way”

Unlike many other people who have read and reviewed Perry’s work, reading her book wouldn’t be some academic exercise in contemplating how liberal feminism has let women down. It wouldn’t be evaluating what those poor sluts over there have endured in the wake of the sexual revolution. Reading her book was personal.

I’m one of those sluts.

I’m a case study for her thesis. A cautionary tale. I knew this book was going to be difficult. And it made me realize it’s time to finish this essay –– one I’ve been trying to write for four years.

It’s a tough needle to thread. I’m grateful for the ability to control my reproductive cycle and make my own money. But that freedom has come at a price. The dark side of the sexual revolution is that even though it liberated women—unyoking sex from consequences has primarily benefited men.

I was first inspired to write this piece when a 19-year-old woman I used to wait tables with asked me: “Bridget, have you ever regretted having sex with a man?”

I laughed. “Yeah. All of them.”

That’s not entirely true. There was my first love in high school. And my first husband. But if I’m honest with myself, of the dozens of men I’ve been with (at least the ones I remember), I can only think of a handful I don’t regret. The rest I would put in the category of “casual,” which I would define as sex that is either meaningless or mediocre (or both). If I get really honest with myself, I’d say most of these usually drunken encounters left me feeling empty and demoralized. And worthless.

I wouldn’t have said that at the time, though. At the time, I would have told you I was “liberated” even while I tried to drink away the sick feeling of rejection when my most recent hook-up didn’t call me back. At the time, I would have said one-night stands made me feel “emboldened.” But in reality, I was using sex like a drug; trying unsuccessfully to fill a hole inside me with men. (Pun intended.)

I know regretting most of my sexual encounters is not something a sex-positive feminist who used to write a column for Playboy is supposed to admit. And for years, I didn’t. Let me be clear, being a “slut” and sleeping with a lot of men is not the only behavior I regret. Even more damaging was what I told myself in order to justify the fact that I was disposable to these men: I told myself I didn’t care.

I didn’t care when a man ghosted me. I didn’t care when he left in the middle of the night or hinted that he wanted me to leave. The walks of shame. The blackouts. The anxiety.

The lie I told myself for decades was: I’m not in pain—I’m empowered.

Looking back, it isn’t a surprise that I lied to myself. Because from a young age, sex was something I was lied to about.

Long before I ever had sex, I felt ashamed of my natural sexual urges and awkward in my blossoming female body. Growing up Catholic, all I remember about sex was feeling bad about it before I even knew what “it” was. I only knew that sex before marriage was wrong. Even the thought of a sexual act or masturbation filled me with debilitating guilt. The first time I kissed a boy, I was convinced I’d be punished. Struck down by an angry, misogynistic God.

As I got older, I was told to guard my virginity. Well-meaning mothers and aunts were clear that I needed to withhold sex in order to get a man to love and respect me. Sex was a commodity, a priceless gem I had to hang on to that increased in value the longer I held it. It made me feel like property. And although I don’t think that was the intention of the wise women who had learned their own lessons the hard way, for me, sex became inextricably linked to my self-worth.

The shame and guilt I grew up with regarding sex felt oppressive. I resented the double standard that men could be promiscuous and it would raise their status and a woman would be slut-shamed for similar behavior. My burgeoning sexuality would unfold as a reaction to these repressive religious orthodoxies, old school notions of sexual status, and trauma.

I lost my virginity at 17 to my boss at a restaurant where I worked. And a year later, I experienced my first sexual trauma. I felt damaged and dirty and I blamed myself. Everyone responds differently to these situations—I dealt with the overwhelming shame by becoming hyper-sexual and promiscuous.

The Culture was right there to pick me up and dust me off. I doubled down on being a proud slut and internalized the biggest and most damaging lie: that loveless sex is empowering. I basked in the girl-power glow of that delusion for decades, weaponizing my sexuality while convincing myself I was full of the divine feminine.

I was full of ***t.

I told myself that because I could seduce a man, I was powerful. But as Perry says in her book, “...women can all too easily fail to recognize that being desired is not the same thing as being held in high esteem.” Deep down inside, I knew that to be the case. But as a defense mechanism, I crafted a man-eater persona. My mantras were rigid.

• You can either have a career or a relationship—but you can’t have both.
• Intimacy is creepy.
• Motherhood and children are a trap.
• Sex is only about power.

Another set of lies built on lies built on trauma. Sex isn’t just about power—it’s also about intimacy and vulnerability and trust. Things I wanted nothing to do with. Because implicit in modern dating is a complete lack of expectations –– especially those of chivalry.

Whenever a man wanted to pick up the tab or pull out the chair or open the door or pick me up or take me to dinner or see me during the day or wait longer than the first date to have sex, I was shocked and suspicious of them. Was he a serial killer?

Casual sex is fraught with insecurity and miscommunication; intimacy and love are punch lines. When a man I slept with had the courtesy to reach out, I mistook relief for happiness, rewiring my brain to be grateful for the bare minimum. The saddest realization is how low I set the bar.

A lifetime of allowing myself to be the other woman, taken for granted or treated like a doormat under the false pretense of being “empowered” came to a head one night with the arrival of a text message from an on-again, off-again lover.

“Goodnight baby I love you,” it said. Quickly followed by, “Wrong person.”

Rock bottom doesn’t always look like losing everything or ending up in jail. Sometimes it can be that sick feeling in your gut when you know, emotionally, you’re done. I wanted to be able to have meaningless sex like a guy, but it didn’t work. (After years of writing for Playboy, I’ve learned it doesn’t work for a lot of men either.) For years, I tried, unsuccessfully, not to “catch the feels” (even that expression is so telling about the way emotions are viewed regarding relationships, as if they’re a cold or the flu or some kind of sickness you need to get over).

I’m not speaking for all women. I know many women with a solid sense of self who happily have loveless sex. This piece won’t make them defensive. But a lot of women will read this and bristle, just like I did, when I used to read something that pushed back on the lie I’d built my entire identity around.

Or maybe you’re a trans or nonbinary person reading this, thinking “What quaint ideas about gender and sex this old trad con has.” And to that I’ll say, it makes sense to me that the generation of young women who have experienced and borne witness to some of the worst side-effects of unyoking sex from consequence and love that Perry meticulously outlines in her book, “rough sex, hook-up culture, and ubiquitous porn”—would take a look around and decide:

I’d rather be a man. Or more accurately, I’d rather not be a woman.

But maybe it’s the inevitable conclusion to the sexual revolution. Today’s youth are being fed an even more dangerous lie than the one that I was fed about loveless sex. I was told sex doesn’t matter. They’re being told biology doesn’t matter.

This is a tragedy.

I’m not suggesting we return to some Victorian era notion of sex or some 1950s era ideal about gender roles. I’m now 43-years-old and I’m in the first truly healthy, intimate relationship in my life with my (second) husband. We recently had a daughter. And in the wake of her birth I’ve been thinking a lot about the conversations I’m going to have with her and the conversations I wish I could go back in time and have with a young Bridget.

I’d tell her:

Sex can be empowering when you’re coming from a position of healthy self-esteem. If you’re coming from a place of trauma or insecurity, casual sex won’t heal that. In fact, it might set you back and undermine any progress regarding your feelings of self-worth. If you know your value, you’re less likely to sleep with someone who doesn’t value you. Cherish yourself and you will be cherished.

You shouldn’t have to withhold sex for a man to respect you; he should respect you regardless. Sexual empowerment has nothing to do with how many people you do or don’t sleep with—it has to do with how comfortable you are in your skin—no matter your decision. It’s not about waiting until you’re in love to have sex; it’s about making sure that first, you love yourself.

Don’t ignore that nagging gut instinct telling you “sexual liberation” leaves you feeling unfulfilled. You can still be sex-positive and accept that for you, sex can’t be liberated from intimacy and a meaningful relationship.

I regret being a slut. I regret it because I regret that those men can say they slept with me.

Still, that’s how I know I finally value myself.

Every woman should feel this way: Sleeping with me is a privilege. And you have to be worthy.

 

[Luann]

“women can all too easily fail to recognize that being desired is not the same thing as being held in high esteem.”
Louise Perry

Wow!

Growing up Catholic, all I remember about sex was feeling bad about it before I even knew what “it” was.

This is a really big theme for me. "Trad culture" likes to hate on wokists but they don't realize that their rigid rules create such a reaction. Thank you for your story.

 

[Runenight201]

A man who does not have sexual attraction is a man who does not carry masculine characteristics. With poor diet and lifestyle choices come poor physical characteristics and hormonal profiles which leads to women not being sexually attracted to that man.

An incel is an immature boy who is not developing properly into a man, receiving no female attention and then as a result turning to bitterness and hatred.

Unfortunately no one helps the incel realize that the only way forward is to improve their health, develop properly into a man, and then they’ll get what they want. Lack of role models in school systems to properly guide developing adolescents results in pathological development. Boys will choose alcohol/drugs/video games/internet/escapism which only further complicate their problems and drive them into a hole with disasterous consequences

 

[stoic]

A man who does not have sexual attraction is a man who does not carry masculine characteristics. With poor diet and lifestyle choices come poor physical characteristics and hormonal profiles which leads to women not being sexually attracted to that man.

An incel is an immature boy who is not developing properly into a man, receiving no female attention and then as a result turning to bitterness and hatred.

Unfortunately no one helps the incel realize that the only way forward is to improve their health, develop properly into a man, and then they’ll get what they want. Lack of role models in school systems to properly guide developing adolescents results in pathological development. Boys will choose alcohol/drugs/video games/internet/escapism which only further complicate their problems and drive them into a hole with disasterous consequences

I fully agree with your points, but I feel that criticising "poor diet and lifestyle" might not really do justice to what I think is a wider societal problem.

Men in the West are now of little importance, masculinity openly despised and fought. We are feminised before even getting out of the womb, get raised increasingly exclusively by women, have lost most, if not all, male rites of passage as well as male-only spaces, and have to survive in dating, family and work environments where our qualities are increasingly less valued. Add to it the pervasive damage from the medical system and a toxic media, and it is almost a miracle that masculine men still exist.

The good news, I think, is that all of these issues can be solved: we can still take control of our health, stand up for masculine habits and values, avoid the media and the medical system, and wisely choose who we associate with. Biology and good sense are on our side

 

[Runenight201]

I fully agree with your points, but I feel that criticising "poor diet and lifestyle" might not really do justice to what I think is a wider societal problem.

Men in the West are now of little importance, masculinity openly despised and fought. We are feminised before even getting out of the womb, get raised increasingly exclusively by women, have lost most, if not all, male rites of passage as well as male-only spaces, and have to survive in dating, family and work environments where our qualities are increasingly less valued. Add to it the pervasive damage from the medical system and a toxic media, and it is almost a miracle that masculine men still exist.

The good news, I think, is that all of these issues can be solved: we can still take control of our health, stand up for masculine habits and values, avoid the media and the medical system, and wisely choose who we associate with. Biology and good sense are on our side

It’s a societal problem in the sense that a weak man is not shown the proper path towards strength, but often instead either left to rot alone, put on medication, or led to useless talk therapies which don’t get to actual root of the problems, which is always a physiological one. It is physically poor development, and so the solution needs to be physical in nature. The psyche will sort itself out once the underlying physiology is addressed.

 

[area51puy]

A man who does not have sexual attraction is a man who does not carry masculine characteristics. With poor diet and lifestyle choices come poor physical characteristics and hormonal profiles which leads to women not being sexually attracted to that man.

An incel is an immature boy who is not developing properly into a man, receiving no female attention and then as a result turning to bitterness and hatred.

Unfortunately no one helps the incel realize that the only way forward is to improve their health, develop properly into a man, and then they’ll get what they want. Lack of role models in school systems to properly guide developing adolescents results in pathological development. Boys will choose alcohol/drugs/video games/internet/escapism which only further complicate their problems and drive them into a hole with disasterous consequences

There has always been incels, it’s just the percentage of them is growing and reported 30 percent of men under 30 didn’t have sex last year.

So women eat the same food and are fatter and unhealthier the previous generations and have no problem find sex when needed.

So in general women like to have sex with one man at a time for a fling and few months , a few years or a lifetime.

Where men can have sex with multiple women and rotate them around going back and forth between women where in general women do not want to do that even there are some that do.

So women are ok now with flings and hookups where before they would demand relationships before having sex.

Now a days women are ok with hookups and mini relationships but they will stick one man for a certain period while that same guy may have 2,3 or 4 other women he is sleeping with.

After a few months she may move to another guy that will do the same thing, but in general women want a guy desired by other women and hopes to win him over and hope for him to eventually drop the other women so she feels special. But most of the time ends up hurt and a broken heart.

So you have these guys with multiple women while you have the mid range guy who after looking around gets sex occasionally and getting into some long range relationships and the growing number of incels at the bottom is because women are willing to share a man with other women who is better looking and settle for hookups then settle for and average guy who would be faithful and provide a relationship to them.

If everybody is getting fatter and unhealthier in the end it should have just evened out.

 

[Runenight201]

There has always been incels, it’s just the percentage of them is growing and reported 30 percent of men under 30 didn’t have sex last year.

So women eat the same food and are fatter and unhealthier the previous generations and have no problem find sex when needed.

So in general women like to have sex with one man at a time for a fling and few months , a few years or a lifetime.

Where men can have sex with multiple women and rotate them around going back and forth between women where in general women do not want to do that even there are some that do.

So women are ok now with flings and hookups where before they would demand relationships before having sex.

Now a days women are ok with hookups and mini relationships but they will stick one man for a certain period while that same guy may have 2,3 or 4 other women he is sleeping with.

After a few months she may move to another guy that will do the same thing, but in general women want a guy desired by other women and hopes to win him over and hope for him to eventually drop the other women so she feels special. But most of the time ends up hurt and a broken heart.

So you have these guys with multiple women while you have the mid range guy who after looking around gets sex occasionally and getting into some long range relationships and the growing number of incels at the bottom is because women are willing to share a man with other women who is better looking and settle for hookups then settle for and average guy who would be faithful and provide a relationship to them.

If everybody is getting fatter and unhealthier in the end it should have just evened out.

I suppose you are correct in that it's easier all other things equal for a woman to have sex than a man.

I would disagree though that woman are only going to have sex with the top % of men, and I would also state that it is probably the case as well that there are a growing number of incel woman as well.

However since woman are pickier than men, when overall attractiveness falls, there will be a faster growing rate of incel men than woman.