Inadvertent cure for dark dark circles under eyes?

Philomath

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I’m a fair-skinned Irish/German guy who’s had dark circles under my eyes since I was a teen. I remember being so self-concious about them that I often used my moms concealer at times.
I was told I could be anemic, but my educated guess says it’s probably a specific gut issue along with a lack of sleep.
Now days, they’re still dark, but a little more puffy and swollen underneath.
I recently had treatment for salivary gland cancer which included have my facial nerves cut, I thought the lack of nerve function may be the reason for the reduction in “bruising” and swelling - and it may be, but there’s something else.
The nerve work reduced the ability of my right eye to blink effectively, and it gets dry and irritated.
I’ve been using Zaditor eye drops with the antihistamine Ketotefin in that eye. Could consistent TLR4 and Serotonin antagonists directly in the eyes reduce swelling and the dark circles??
 

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yerrag

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I wonder about this in the eyes of a vendor in the wet market Infrequent. A year ago, he had dark patches under both his eyes but he now only has a patch under his left eye.

He doesn't know how one patch diasppeared. My guess is that the capillaries were bursting in those areas, and they left a bruise under each eye. I was telling him jokingly that insteadbof being punched in the face, he was being punched from the inside.

Given that it is a cosmetic condition more than anything, I consider it to be relatively harmless while thinking that it is not ideal and can be ameliorated. I think about my frequent reddish eyeballs and think my eyeballs are no different in that the capillaries bursting are like a pressure relief valve letting off excess pressure. It:s for me a remarkable example of the body's wisdom in adaptation, where it's losing a few capillaries instead of losing the organism.

I see it as a "small vessel" problem. I have high blood pressure and I've now begun to see it as this kind of problem.

The capillaries are protected by a glycocalyx layer and this layer gets eroded and this makes the capillaries weaker and less functional in bringing about its task of bringing in nutrients and carrying out waste thru the circulatory system.

There's a company that has introduced a test of capillary health called the Glycocheck. Since its a new product, it isn't widely available so being outside the US, I cannot avail of such a test.

But instead, I've started to use its product Endocalyx Pro, with the hope that the Glycocalyx layer can be renewed. For me, it works in a way like a proteolytic enzyme but milder in its action, which is good, plus a few nutrients to improve the glycocalyx.

But I'm cautious about products that can improve blood vessels because there are gotchas involved as plaque and biofilms and microbes are possible booby traps on the way to healing. In healing, the adage "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line" does not apply. There are so many twists and turns you could a whole mini-series on it.

So its like caveat emptor when you begin using such a product.

I would just refer you to searching the forum if you're interested with the keywords Glycocheck and Endocalyx Pro.

As for serotonin, what reasons do you have for suspecting serotonin?
 

exile

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I think there are numerous things it could be from allergies to high cortisol to thyroid. It could also be genetic.
 

TheCalciumCad

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Mine improved after I quit coffee and started drinking lots of lemon water especially 1st thing on a morning which massively helps rehydrate the body after abusing coffee. Under eyes are related to liver function I think and only a million things can burden the liver - medications, coffee, alcohol, stress/depression, heavy metal accumulation, viral infection, excessive supplements, malnourishment, hormone replacement, grooming products, lack of sleep etc etc
 
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eimearrose

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Mine improved after I quit coffee and started drinking lots of lemon water especially 1st thing on a morning which massively helps rehydrate the body after abusing coffee. Under eyes are related to liver function I think and only a million things can burden the liver - medications, coffee, alcohol, stress/depression, heavy metal accumulation, viral infection, excessive supplements, malnourishment, hormone replacement, grooming products, lack of sleep etc etc
I quit coffee for three months last year and didn't make any difference to my dark circles. But maybe it wasn't long enough. I also suspect liver and possibly thyroid. But also could just be thin/pale skin. I'm Irish like @Philomath
 

TheCalciumCad

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I quit coffee for three months last year and didn't make any difference to my dark circles. But maybe it wasn't long enough. I also suspect liver and possibly thyroid. But also could just be thin/pale skin. I'm Irish like @Philomath

I'd try juicing half a large lemon in a big glass of water 1st thing on a morning for a while and see what happens. It's a good idea to drink it throughout the day aswell, add some lime juice and a pinch of sea salt aswell if you want.
 

xeliex

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My sister has them bad and she drinks lemon and water 1st thing in the morning. She's done that for a while. I suspect with her a declining thyroid function and a correlation with the darkening and other low thyroid symptoms. She also doesn't drink coffee. I am trying to get her to and to try some topical antihistamine to evaluate any reduction in dark circle visibility.
 
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Philomath

Philomath

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I wonder about this in the eyes of a vendor in the wet market Infrequent. A year ago, he had dark patches under both his eyes but he now only has a patch under his left eye.

He doesn't know how one patch diasppeared. My guess is that the capillaries were bursting in those areas, and they left a bruise under each eye. I was telling him jokingly that insteadbof being punched in the face, he was being punched from the inside.

Given that it is a cosmetic condition more than anything, I consider it to be relatively harmless while thinking that it is not ideal and can be ameliorated. I think about my frequent reddish eyeballs and think my eyeballs are no different in that the capillaries bursting are like a pressure relief valve letting off excess pressure. It:s for me a remarkable example of the body's wisdom in adaptation, where it's losing a few capillaries instead of losing the organism.

I see it as a "small vessel" problem. I have high blood pressure and I've now begun to see it as this kind of problem.

The capillaries are protected by a glycocalyx layer and this layer gets eroded and this makes the capillaries weaker and less functional in bringing about its task of bringing in nutrients and carrying out waste thru the circulatory system.

There's a company that has introduced a test of capillary health called the Glycocheck. Since its a new product, it isn't widely available so being outside the US, I cannot avail of such a test.

But instead, I've started to use its product Endocalyx Pro, with the hope that the Glycocalyx layer can be renewed. For me, it works in a way like a proteolytic enzyme but milder in its action, which is good, plus a few nutrients to improve the glycocalyx.

But I'm cautious about products that can improve blood vessels because there are gotchas involved as plaque and biofilms and microbes are possible booby traps on the way to healing. In healing, the adage "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line" does not apply. There are so many twists and turns you could a whole mini-series on it.

So its like caveat emptor when you begin using such a product.

I would just refer you to searching the forum if you're interested with the keywords Glycocheck and Endocalyx Pro.

As for serotonin, what reasons do you have for suspecting serotonin?
I’ll check that out. I do wonder if starch blocking capillaries may have anything to do with dark circles??
Dr. Peat has said that dark circles are likely an expression of gut irritation/inflammation.
 
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Philomath

Philomath

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Mine improved after I quit coffee and started drinking lots of lemon water especially 1st thing on a morning which massively helps rehydrate the body after abusing coffee. Under eyes are related to liver function I think and only a million things can burden the liver - medications, coffee, alcohol, stress/depression, heavy metal accumulation, viral infection, excessive supplements, malnourishment, hormone replacement, grooming products, lack of sleep etc etc
Lemon water sounds like an Ayurvedic treatment! I believe I’m a Vata dosha so warm drinks are probably best. It may help with my chronic sinusitis too
 

youngsinatra

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I’d suspect anemia/hypoxia/lack of oxygenation (checking hemoglobin, folate, B12, ceruloplasmin and ferritin)

I had the worst dark circles under my eyes when I was heavily copper deficient. My cells were basically starving for oxygen and ATP. My skin also became pale as hell and I looked like a corpse as copper is well-known to be heavily involved in melanin production.

But to be honest, you don‘t seem to have significantly dark circles under your eyes. :)
 

golder

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I’d suspect anemia/hypoxia/lack of oxygenation (checking hemoglobin, folate, B12, ceruloplasmin and ferritin)

I had the worst dark circles under my eyes when I was heavily copper deficient. My cells were basically starving for oxygen and ATP. My skin also became pale as hell and I looked like a corpse as copper is well-known to be heavily involved in melanin production.

But to be honest, you don‘t seem to have significantly dark circles under your eyes. :)
How much copper and in which form did you take it in order to notice a reduction in your dark circles? Thanks!
 

Grapelander

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I tried the Zaditor eye drops a few years ago - they felt protective. Buying more to check out again.


 

yerrag

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I’ll check that out. I do wonder if starch blocking capillaries may have anything to do with dark circles??
Dr. Peat has said that dark circles are likely an expression of gut irritation/inflammation.
I don't know how starch in its many natural forms would be able to be absorbed thru the gut as indigested particles if the digestive system is working well, complete with enzymes, the stomach acid etc. But the introduction of processed starches meant to give better texture, and on nanoparticles, and additives, and proprietary flavorings, could allow for persorption to occur. Even then, we really don't know.

I've now come to realize that Ray Peat's observations are contextual to his experience. His gut is sensitive, and he gives many cautionary advice regarding the gut. Gut inflammation may be a cause of dark circles, but there are other causes.
 

youngsinatra

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How much copper and in which form did you take it in order to notice a reduction in your dark circles? Thanks!
4 mg of cuprous nicotinic acid powder.

Did try Thorne‘s copper bisglycinate (6-8mg) for 4 months without success. Did not improve my copper blood work. I think copper (II) supplementation is basically useless. Copper metabolism in general is very poorly understood.
 
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golder

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How much did the 4 mg of cuprous nicotinic acid powder per day raise your copper? What was the before/after?
 

Jkbp

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I’d suspect anemia/hypoxia/lack of oxygenation (checking hemoglobin, folate, B12, ceruloplasmin and ferritin)

I had the worst dark circles under my eyes when I was heavily copper deficient. My cells were basically starving for oxygen and ATP. My skin also became pale as hell and I looked like a corpse as copper is well-known to be heavily involved in melanin production.

But to be honest, you don‘t seem to have significantly dark circles under your eyes. :)
How did you diagnose the copper deficiency? Blood test? Thanks
 
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Philomath

Philomath

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I’d suspect anemia/hypoxia/lack of oxygenation (checking hemoglobin, folate, B12, ceruloplasmin and ferritin)

I had the worst dark circles under my eyes when I was heavily copper deficient. My cells were basically starving for oxygen and ATP. My skin also became pale as hell and I looked like a corpse as copper is well-known to be heavily involved in melanin production.

But to be honest, you don‘t seem to have significantly dark circles under your eyes. :)
You may be right about the oxygenation and copper. I may get Haidut’s heavy metal/mineral tests done just to see my copper levels.
I can get hyperbaric oxygen as part of my cancer/osteonecrosis prevention process. It would be interesting to see what that might do.
Im also going all out with copper supplementation (natural methods), and I just bought a CO2 tank to breath it in like Dr. Peat does. Here’s a better pic - it’s hard to capture with my phone.
 

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youngsinatra

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How did you diagnose the copper deficiency? Blood test? Thanks
Yeah, persistently low serum copper and low ceruloplasmin on blood tests.

Copper (II) only raised my free unbound copper, but my ceruloplasmin (Cp) did not go up at all. I think that copper (II) has very little bioavailability at all. In a human study copper (II) gluconate at 10mg (!) per day for 12 weeks did not raise any copper biomarkers. (serum Cu, Cp, SOD..) Copper glycinate slightly raised serum copper and ceruloplasmin (Cp) in one human study. I think that copper glycinate gets absorbed into the blood (unbound) by being attached to glycine and following the absorptive route of glycine, but it does NOT follow the supposed route for copper absorption, which is the entry site called CTR1, after which it get's properly loaded into all the important copper chaperones. (COX17/ATOX1/ATP7A/ATP7B/CCS)
 

youngsinatra

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How much did the 4 mg of cuprous nicotinic acid powder per day raise your copper? What was the before/after?
I just received my latest blood work after my 4-months copper (II) bisglycinate experiment.

I just got onto the cuprous nicotinic acid in the last 2 weeks or so and I will continue for 2 or maybe 3 months until I get new blood work to see the change.

But my symptoms are very noticeable improving! (which did not occur with cu(II)glycinate)

(4mg of elemental copper = 24mg of the cuprous nicotinic acid powder - by the way)
But I may reduce it to 2mg of elemental copper to save up some costs and the CEO Charlie Barker said that 2mg is PLENTY.
 

golder

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I just received my latest blood work after my 4-months copper (II) bisglycinate experiment.

I just got onto the cuprous nicotinic acid in the last 2 weeks or so and I will continue for 2 or maybe 3 months until I get new blood work to see the change.

But my symptoms are very noticeable improving! (which did not occur with cu(II)glycinate)

(4mg of elemental copper = 24mg of the cuprous nicotinic acid powder - by the way)
But I may reduce it to 2mg of elemental copper to save up some costs and the CEO Charlie Barker said that 2mg is PLENTY.
Can you link to the product you’re using?
 

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