In ME/CFS the cells resemble state that of after strong exertion even in absence of exertion, ME/CFS immunometabolic theory of starved cells

[Explorer]

"Straining for Energy"- Large Metabolic Study Suggests ME/CFS is an "Immunometabolic" Disease - Health Rising

The Norwegians are doing it again – reminding us that the fight to understand ME/CFS/FM is an international effort and that crucial insights are coming in from across the globe. The Norwegian odyssey has been interesting. Fluge and Mella began with an immunological treatment (Rituximab), and are...

www.healthrising.org

Apparently in ME/CFS the cells are in a state which in healthy people only occurs after intense exertion

Due to cellular stress they are depleted of energy so start eating up whatever they can find

 

[freyasam]

Thanks for posting this. This is what ME/CFS feels like to me: my body is under extreme metabolic stress and is consuming everything in order to survive. Sweeping a small floor for 2 minutes --> I feel like I'm about to collapse. I get hungry quickly and need carbs frequently, which made me fat in a short amount of time after getting ME/CFS.

I really wish Ray would speak more to what he thinks is happening with ME/CFS. I've been eating according to his principles for almost 8 years, and though it has helped somewhat, I am still disabled from this illness. And obese, because my body seems to need a lot of fuel to extract a little energy, then stores what it can't use as fat.

The part about amino acids is interesting. My body seems to require above average amounts of certain amino acids, because symptoms / post-exertional malaise get worse when I stop taking powdered gelatin.

I feel like my body has never been able to "switch" to burn fuel optimally. But unlike the article's suggestion to go keto, that was the diet that "turned off" my ability to burn carbs efficiently when I did it for a year in 2010 - 2011. Peating has helped a little but my cells can't seem to get sugar into the place where they use it efficiently.

In a recent interview, Chris Armstrong, the leader of the OMF funded Australia said the dirty fuel scenario- the cells of ME/CFS patients have turned to a dirty fuel (amino acids) to power them – was holding up.

It certainly did in this study which suggested that ME/CFS patients’ cells are simply doing what any cell (or person) would do when starving or put under extreme metabolic stress: they’re basically consuming everything and anything they can to survive.

The Gist​

The most comprehensive metabolomics study to date came up with a plus – a new kind of “comic: analysis – lipidomics – the study of fats
Widespread changes in amino acid and lipid metabolites pointed to a possible dysfunction in energy production.
This study suggested as past studies have, that the cells of people with ME/FS are trying to get a hold of energy in any way they can. Instead of relying on carbohydrate metabolism for a clean source of energy, they’re turning, for some reason, to “dirty fuels” such as fatty acids and amino acids.
Despite the fact that people with ME/CFS are neither starving nor are engaging in intensive exercise, their metabolic and lipid results are similar to those found in starvation and after intensive exercise. The authors proposed that the metabolic systems in ME/CFS are stressed even while they are at rest.
While a core metabolic issue seemed to be present in all the ME/CFS patients, three subsets of patients could also be identified. The authors proposed that the three subsets represented different ways the cells of people with ME/FS are attempting to compensate for their metabolic deficiencies.
One group – the M1 group (about 40%) was characterized by high degrees of fatty acid and amino acid breakdown. High levels of ketone derivatives also suggested this group had a ketogenic slant. Little evidence of mitochondrial problems was found, and the authors characterized this as the “lipolytic” group. Their metabolic profile was similar to that seen in starvation and after high-intensity exercise.
The M2 group (about 45%) displayed increased fatty acid breakdown but was characterized more by increased amino acid breakdown. Evidence of mitochondrial dysfunction (high pyruvate levels) was also found. This group, which had the most severe symptoms, had similar metabolomic/lipidomic profiles to diseases characterized by inflammation.
The M3 group (@15% of the study) appeared to be intermediate between the healthy controls and other ME/CFS groups but was too small to be assessed statistically.
Calling ME/CFS an “immunometabolic” disease, the authors posited that an autoimmune reaction is impairing blood flows to the tissues and pointed to a finding suggesting that the oxygen in the blood is not getting to the mitochondria.
The idea that blood flow problems are playing a key, even central role in ME/CFS has gained traction lately with these authors, Wirth and Scheibenbogen, Systrom, Shungu, and others proposing it.





That approach makes sense if you’ve just finished a marathon – not so much if you’re at rest. The authors noted that the branched-chain amino acid consumption and fatty acid breakdown. Reduced bile products and the elevation of purine nucleotides they found in ME/CFS mirrors what’s seen after intensive exercise – except that ME/CFS patients were not, of course, exercising. They underscore ME/CFS patients’ experiences, though, of feeling like they’ve run a marathon, despite the fact that they’ve been at rest. They concluded that:

” These observations may suggest that metabolism is stressed in ME/CFS patients even in absence of activity.”

 

[Explorer]

Thanks for posting this. This is what ME/CFS feels like to me: my body is under extreme metabolic stress and is consuming everything in order to survive. Sweeping a small floor for 2 minutes --> I feel like I'm about to collapse. I get hungry quickly and need carbs frequently, which made me fat in a short amount of time after getting ME/CFS.

I really wish Ray would speak more to what he thinks is happening with ME/CFS. I've been eating according to his principles for almost 8 years, and though it has helped somewhat, I am still disabled from this illness. And obese, because my body seems to need a lot of fuel to extract a little energy, then stores what it can't use as fat.

The part about amino acids is interesting. My body seems to require above average amounts of certain amino acids, because symptoms / post-exertional malaise get worse when I stop taking powdered gelatin.

I feel like my body has never been able to "switch" to burn fuel optimally. But unlike the article's suggestion to go keto, that was the diet that "turned off" my ability to burn carbs efficiently when I did it for a year in 2010 - 2011. Peating has helped a little but my cells can't seem to get sugar into the place where they use it efficiently.

Try Coffee, T3, Cyproheptadine, anything that antagonizes serotonin, autoimmunity and kickstarts glucose oxidation

 

[freyasam]

Try Coffee, T3, Cyproheptadine, anything that antagonizes serotonin, autoimmunity and kickstarts glucose oxidation

Been experimenting with doses of all of those for years. Been on cynomel for over a year. None of it has really helped significantly.

 

[Dr. B]

Thanks for posting this. This is what ME/CFS feels like to me: my body is under extreme metabolic stress and is consuming everything in order to survive. Sweeping a small floor for 2 minutes --> I feel like I'm about to collapse. I get hungry quickly and need carbs frequently, which made me fat in a short amount of time after getting ME/CFS.

I really wish Ray would speak more to what he thinks is happening with ME/CFS. I've been eating according to his principles for almost 8 years, and though it has helped somewhat, I am still disabled from this illness. And obese, because my body seems to need a lot of fuel to extract a little energy, then stores what it can't use as fat.

The part about amino acids is interesting. My body seems to require above average amounts of certain amino acids, because symptoms / post-exertional malaise get worse when I stop taking powdered gelatin.

I feel like my body has never been able to "switch" to burn fuel optimally. But unlike the article's suggestion to go keto, that was the diet that "turned off" my ability to burn carbs efficiently when I did it for a year in 2010 - 2011. Peating has helped a little but my cells can't seem to get sugar into the place where they use it efficiently.

Whats your exact diet, hormones and supplements youre using?