In Defense Of Low Fat

HDD

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Interesting. Were the changes impressive? Do you think you've reduced iron on his diet as well?
It is hard to know what prevented further exacerbation. I believed my diet/diets were key and I did continue low fat and limited red meat. Since my worst symptoms were right around conception (two out of five pregnancies), estrogen was clearly a factor. I had two symptom free pregnancies after I started following the diet ( no longer supplementing). I came upon Peat after experiencing symptoms post menopause and doing a Paleo challenge. At the time, four years ago, I blamed it on my pork consumption (I had avoided pork for many years) and increased pufa while doing the Paleo diet since Peat mentions pork and ms in one of his articles. Since you posted his reply about iron, it makes even more sense because I was also eating a lot of red meat. I had not been restricting red meat prior to Paleo but I wasn't a big meat eater either. I was not particularly low fat. I had started using coconut oil in cooking a few years prior after reading "Nourishing Traditions". I do not consume very much red meat now, a few ounces of ground beef a week at the most. I have become lower fat this past year because of weight gain but I prefer full fat dairy. I don't care for fatty meats and never have.

I have been wanting to ask Ray Peat his thoughts on Swank because I recently found my diet book that I had used and wanted to know his thoughts. Thanks for posting his reply! I won't be adding clo but definitely will continue a low iron diet and supplement vitamin A more consistently. I get vitamin D from the sun regularly which I have done for years since vitamin D deficiency is reported in ms.
 

Tenacity

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Ray has stated the minimum daily amount of fat to be around 60 grams. He's stated the optimal macronutrient ratios to probably be equal parts PRT, CHO, and fat.

This would mean a fat intake of around 100-150 grams per day, ideally wholly saturated.

I did notice a distinct drop in libido with a fat intake of about 30g. It returned very strongly when I bumped this up to 60g, so I'm inclined to believe Ray is right. I'm going to experiment with 40g soon. Perhaps lipogenesis will make up the rest, as I'm eating over 500g of carbs?
 

paymanz

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@Westside PUFAs whats your opinion about coconut oil?do you think adding some to a fat free diet improves it or its better to stay away from any fat even coconut's?
 

DaveFoster

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Can you provide any sources? It would make sense because pretty much all humans intuitively prefer a mixed diet like this... That is what bothers me with all these restricted diet plans - why would a body crave a harmful diet? Unless restrictions were temporary, to mimic food shortage or something.
I can't find the interview, but he said 60 grams if the person did not misquote him. .4 g/lb is a standard minimum. So around 60-80 grams should be optimal with adequate protein and carbohydrate. Some people function better with more than that. With coconut oil, there's always the advantages of maintain high ketone blood concentrations as well.
 

DaveFoster

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I did notice a distinct drop in libido with a fat intake of about 30g. It returned very strongly when I bumped this up to 60g, so I'm inclined to believe Ray is right. I'm going to experiment with 40g soon. Perhaps lipogenesis will make up the rest, as I'm eating over 500g of carbs?
I think if your libido drops, then that's a decent marker for eating significantly more fat. Personally, I feel pretty good on around 100-140 grams, but it's hard to isolate that variable.
 

blob69

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It is hard to know what prevented further exacerbation. I believed my diet/diets were key and I did continue low fat and limited red meat. Since my worst symptoms were right around conception (two out of five pregnancies), estrogen was clearly a factor. I had two symptom free pregnancies after I started following the diet ( no longer supplementing). I came upon Peat after experiencing symptoms post menopause and doing a Paleo challenge. At the time, four years ago, I blamed it on my pork consumption (I had avoided pork for many years) and increased pufa while doing the Paleo diet since Peat mentions pork and ms in one of his articles. Since you posted his reply about iron, it makes even more sense because I was also eating a lot of red meat. I had not been restricting red meat prior to Paleo but I wasn't a big meat eater either. I was not particularly low fat. I had started using coconut oil in cooking a few years prior after reading "Nourishing Traditions". I do not consume very much red meat now, a few ounces of ground beef a week at the most. I have become lower fat this past year because of weight gain but I prefer full fat dairy. I don't care for fatty meats and never have.

I have been wanting to ask Ray Peat his thoughts on Swank because I recently found my diet book that I had used and wanted to know his thoughts. Thanks for posting his reply! I won't be adding clo but definitely will continue a low iron diet and supplement vitamin A more consistently. I get vitamin D from the sun regularly which I have done for years since vitamin D deficiency is reported in ms.

You're welcome and thanks for sharing your story as well! May I ask if you've noticed any connection between your MS symptoms and intake of saturated fat? Or are you doing lower fat solely for weight loss reasons?

Thinking more about Denise's article I really wonder if the diets she describes work because they are low in fat, or because they share another similarity like a reduction in iron or food reward (as per Stephan Guyenet).
 
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@Westside PUFAs whats your opinion about coconut oil?do you think adding some to a fat free diet improves it or its better to stay away from any fat even coconut's?

I find swallowing pure coconut oil disgusting and it makes me gag. The only way for me to eat it would be in a coconut ice cream form but that would just be an occasional treat and not a daily thing and its probably better to use whole coconut instead of oil for the ice cream. I do eat dried coconut flakes and I try to eat fresh coconut meat when I can get it. There's no such thing as a fat free diet. Even if you don't add overt fats, there's still a small amount of natural fat in foodstuffs. I would eat tons of fresh coconut meat if I had it because coconut is a special kind of fat and it would not make me gain body fat or cause blood sugar issues like dairy fat and monounsaturated fat do for me.
 

HDD

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You're welcome and thanks for sharing your story as well! May I ask if you've noticed any connection between your MS symptoms and intake of saturated fat? Or are you doing lower fat solely for weight loss reasons?

Thinking more about Denise's article I really wonder if the diets she describes work because they are low in fat, or because they share another similarity like a reduction in iron or food reward (as per Stephan Guyenet).

No, I haven't noticed a difference in regards to fat. I actually have been the healthiest when my metabolism was at its best on a higher fat diet. I started going lower fat to lose weight and to be able to handle sugar better. I found it to be effective but my health today is muddied by extremely high stress. The random symptoms I am experiencing now are due to stress/cortisol and lower metabolic rate rather than fat in my opinion. I also question the dx of "ms".
 

thegiantess

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You're welcome and thanks for sharing your story as well! May I ask if you've noticed any connection between your MS symptoms and intake of saturated fat? Or are you doing lower fat solely for weight loss reasons?

Thinking more about Denise's article I really wonder if the diets she describes work because they are low in fat, or because they share another similarity like a reduction in iron or food reward (as per Stephan Guyenet).

I doubt Guyenet would consider sugar and fruit low reward. I think it's purely the extreme low fat that is working.
 

blob69

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No, I haven't noticed a difference in regards to fat. I actually have been the healthiest when my metabolism was at its best on a higher fat diet. I started going lower fat to lose weight and to be able to handle sugar better. I found it to be effective but my health today is muddied by extremely high stress. The random symptoms I am experiencing now are due to stress/cortisol and lower metabolic rate rather than fat in my opinion. I also question the dx of "ms".

Thanks, that is interesting. I also question the diagnosis of MS, all the people I know who have been diagnosed also have a multitude of other problems like hair loss, mental problems, gynaecological issues etc., indicating that some systemic issue is behind it. I hope you can resolve your stressful situation soon!
 

blob69

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I doubt Guyenet would consider sugar and fruit low reward. I think it's purely the extreme low fat that is working.

If you're talking about the Kempner diet, I'm sure I would reduce my calorie intake greatly on such a plan - it really doesn't sound appetizing in the least. From Denise's article:

"Wisely, Kempner knew his diet was at no risk of being crowned Dietary Homecoming Queen. He apparently described it as a “monotonous and tasteless diet which would never become popular,” and whose only saving grace was the fact that it worked. And as I mentioned in my AHS presentation, he apparently whipped some of his patients in order to help them comply, as—in his words—”the risk to their life was so great that it warranted harshness.”"
 

Lecarpetron

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Has Denise published the promised Part 2 yet? I can't find it anywhere, yet Part 1 was posted almost 7 months ago I think.
 

heartnhands

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Ray has stated the minimum daily amount of fat to be around 60 grams. He's stated the optimal macronutrient ratios to probably be equal parts PRT, CHO, and fat.

This would mean a fat intake of around 100-150 grams per day, ideally wholly saturated.
Hello. I'm new to the shorthand, can you tell me what PRT,CHO? THANKS!
 
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tca300

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Ray told me a few weeks ago he averages about 60 grams of fat per day. But he also said he doesn't know what the ideal ratio of fats ( Saturated ) and carbs is. I personally think fat is gross, and I only eat some hydrogenated coconut oil for protection from stored pufa, skin health, and other benefits, otherwise I wouldn't eat it at all, I never crave it even when eating under 15 grams per day.
 

superhuman

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im the same as tca

@tca300 have you experienced more with protein intake? and protein to carb ratio. You mention you suffered from high prolactin and stuff
 
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tca300

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im the same as tca

@tca300 have you experienced more with protein intake? and protein to carb ratio. You mention you suffered from high prolactin and stuff
I've read that a higher protein diet can raise prolactin, BUT, lifting weights is very important to me, so even though it probably raises prolactin and cortisol, I'm not going to stop, I just consume plenty of sugar during to lower the stress as much as possible, etc... I will not lower protein below 120 grams. When I say 120 grams, I'm not counting plant protein ( fruit ) or gelatin. I don't include those in my goal because Neither supports muscle mass or muscle growth for me personally. But including gelatin and fruit I probably get about 150-180 grams per day, and I keep my sugars at least at 350 grams per day. I use to have a lot more sugar but even with lower fat 8-15% of calories The blubber starts to slowly grow. I don't have a specific protein to carb ratio I guess, I just stick to at least 120 grams of non plant, non gelatin protein and at least 350 grams of sugar. If the protein goes below that after a few days my energy drops, I feel my strength drops, I get muscle tears, shaky etc. Bodybuilding / strength training are my main hobbies, so I do my best to make it as stress free as possible. Even though I'm going through an extremely stressfull period in my life right now, my current thyroid, supplements, weightlifting routine and red light proticol has me feeling like my stress hormones have been lowered to a healthy level. Finally.

P.S Westside, not to be rude, but part of your signature has been bothering me for a while. Protein is essential for life, not glucose, protein can be tured into glucose but glucose cant be turned into protein. The term protein comes I believe from the Greeks, meaning most important. Try to live off of a pure glucose diet and see what happens. Not that a pure protein diet is at all ideal, but at least you won't die.
 
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EIRE24

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Ray told me a few weeks ago he averages about 60 grams of fat per day. But he also said he doesn't know what the ideal ratio of fats ( Saturated ) and carbs is. I personally think fat is gross, and I only eat some hydrogenated coconut oil for protection from stored pufa, skin health, and other benefits, otherwise I wouldn't eat it at all, I never crave it even when eating under 15 grams per day.

Coconut oil for skin health or fats in general?
 
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tca300

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Coconut oil for skin health or fats in general?
Ray talks about the rabbit study where they shaved the backs of rabbits then fed them either a unsaturated diet or Saturated fat diet and exposed them to the sun. Skin damage, etc was only seen in the unsaturated group, and the saturated group still had healthy smooth, young looking skin. I think the higher the saturation the better, which is why I only use hydrogenated coconut oil. Even butter has a decent amount of mono and poly in it.
 
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