Improving Iron Status Without Supplementing Iron

haidut

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Ray has written about the benefits of low iron stores, and how there are very few cases of true iron deficiency anemia. He also mentioned that even for iron deficient people there is almost never a need to take iron supplements as other methods can achieve the same results. This human study shows that a person can improve their iron status simply by taking 5,000 - 6,000 IU of retinyl acetate a day for 4 months.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23050440

"... In subjects of group A, serum iron concentration increased (P < 0.05) and serum ferrtin and transferrtin receptor concentration decreased significantly (both were P < 0.05) after VA supplement intervention. No such changes were observed in group B and C (P < 0.05)...It seems that the intervention of VA supplement with relative high dose of retinol at dietary level could enhance the iron status further in no-anemic healthy adults even without dietary iron supplementation."
 

Sheila

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So anyone care to speculate please, does Vitamin A supplementation improve metabolism and therefore improve assimilation of iron in foods or improve metabolism and make previously unreachable stores accessible or what?
Could low iron mean low A? And does anyone know why they decided to look at Vitamin A in this context?
Grateful for your thoughts, thanks,
Sheila
 

Ben

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Anything that increases testosterone will boost the process of putting iron into hemoglobin. Copper is very effective. Oxygen deprivation or high altitude will boost it as well.
 

answersfound

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haidut said:
Ray has written about the benefits of low iron stores, and how there are very few cases of true iron deficiency anemia. He also mentioned that even for iron deficient people there is almost never a need to take iron supplements as other methods can achieve the same results. This human study shows that a person can improve their iron status simply by taking 5,000 - 6,000 IU of retinyl acetate a day for 4 months.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23050440

"... In subjects of group A, serum iron concentration increased (P < 0.05) and serum ferrtin and transferrtin receptor concentration decreased significantly (both were P < 0.05) after VA supplement intervention. No such changes were observed in group B and C (P < 0.05)...It seems that the intervention of VA supplement with relative high dose of retinol at dietary level could enhance the iron status further in no-anemic healthy adults even without dietary iron supplementation."

What are these "other methods" you mention? Thanks.

I was told I should supplement.

Ferritin, Serum: 39 ng/mL (30-400)

Iron and TIBC:
Iron Bind Cap (TIBC) 341 ug/dL (250-450)
UIBC 228 ug/dL (150-375)
Iron, Serum 113 ug/dL (40-155)
Iron Saturation 33% (15-55)
 
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haidut

haidut

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answersfound said:
post 105075
haidut said:
Ray has written about the benefits of low iron stores, and how there are very few cases of true iron deficiency anemia. He also mentioned that even for iron deficient people there is almost never a need to take iron supplements as other methods can achieve the same results. This human study shows that a person can improve their iron status simply by taking 5,000 - 6,000 IU of retinyl acetate a day for 4 months.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23050440

"... In subjects of group A, serum iron concentration increased (P < 0.05) and serum ferrtin and transferrtin receptor concentration decreased significantly (both were P < 0.05) after VA supplement intervention. No such changes were observed in group B and C (P < 0.05)...It seems that the intervention of VA supplement with relative high dose of retinol at dietary level could enhance the iron status further in no-anemic healthy adults even without dietary iron supplementation."

What are these "other methods" you mention? Thanks.

I was told I should supplement.

Ferritin, Serum: 39 ng/mL (30-400)

Iron and TIBC:
Iron Bind Cap (TIBC) 341 ug/dL (250-450)
UIBC 228 ug/dL (150-375)
Iron, Serum 113 ug/dL (40-155)
Iron Saturation 33% (15-55)

A major cause of iron deficiency anemia is hypothyroidism, so correcting that should help a lot. Ray was talking about the other methods in the context of increasing production of EPO and red blood cells since this are the biomarkers most commonly affected by iron "deficiency". Vitamin K raises both EPO and erythrocytes if they are low and there is no need to take iron in that case. Copper can substitute for iron in case of deficiency so it your copper and ceruloplasmin levels are OK then you probably don't need to take iron.
 
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Sheila

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From Haidut above: A major cause of iron deficiency anemia is hypothyroidism, so correcting that should help a lot. Ray was talking about the other methods in the context of increasing production of EPO and red blood cells since this are the biomarkers most commonly affected by iron "deficiency". Vitamin K raises both EPO and erythrocytes if they are low and there is no need to take iron in that case.

Well, thanks to Haidut's recollections (once again), one of my friends with 'anaemia of chronic disease' even on modest Vitamin K supplementation (which I had suggested more for inappropriate calcification) of 10mg for a couple of months, now has acceptable red blood cell, haemoglobin and haematocrit levels and we suspect is therefore producing EPO off his own bat from (currently) rather unwell kidneys. Often EPO has to be supplemented in these cases as a vital measure. (Lance Armstrong dabbled with this approach but for different reasons). I can not begin to say how exciting this development is, nor its potential for other "end stage" anaemia applications, over and above the improvement for people when this is not an issue. In this person's case, the liver is certainly storing iron, not using it as it might (see Haidut's explanation of calculation on this using ALT), so supplementation would be a big mistake, although it is often given, such is the fascination of 'iron for anaemia' in medical circles.

Thank you Haidut, that the Vit K mechanism is known here rules out potential hypoxia/poisoning which will also cause RBC increase. So in my case, this is definitely good news.
Sheila
 
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haidut

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Sheila said:
post 113256 From Haidut above: A major cause of iron deficiency anemia is hypothyroidism, so correcting that should help a lot. Ray was talking about the other methods in the context of increasing production of EPO and red blood cells since this are the biomarkers most commonly affected by iron "deficiency". Vitamin K raises both EPO and erythrocytes if they are low and there is no need to take iron in that case.

Well, thanks to Haidut's recollections (once again), one of my friends with 'anaemia of chronic disease' even on modest Vitamin K supplementation (which I had suggested more for inappropriate calcification) of 10mg for a couple of months, now has acceptable red blood cell, haemoglobin and haematocrit levels and we suspect is therefore producing EPO off his own bat from (currently) rather unwell kidneys. Often EPO has to be supplemented in these cases as a vital measure. (Lance Armstrong dabbled with this approach but for different reasons). I can not begin to say how exciting this development is, nor its potential for other "end stage" anaemia applications, over and above the improvement for people when this is not an issue. In this person's case, the liver is certainly storing iron, not using it as it might (see Haidut's explanation of calculation on this using ALT), so supplementation would be a big mistake, although it is often given, such is the fascination of 'iron for anaemia' in medical circles.

Thank you Haidut, that the Vit K mechanism is known here rules out potential hypoxia/poisoning which will also cause RBC increase. So in my case, this is definitely good news.
Sheila

Wow, the good news just keep on coming! Do you know if white blood count changed in that person as well? Just curious if improved iron status affected the immune system.
Thanks again for sharing.
 
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Sheila

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No, in this case WBC count remained essentially stable in the normal range. He also feels more flexible on vit k.
Thank you for your many and varied contributions that have helped so much.
Sheila
 

mirc12354

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From Haidut above: A major cause of iron deficiency anemia is hypothyroidism, so correcting that should help a lot. Ray was talking about the other methods in the context of increasing production of EPO and red blood cells since this are the biomarkers most commonly affected by iron "deficiency". Vitamin K raises both EPO and erythrocytes if they are low and there is no need to take iron in that case.

Well, thanks to Haidut's recollections (once again), one of my friends with 'anaemia of chronic disease' even on modest Vitamin K supplementation (which I had suggested more for inappropriate calcification) of 10mg for a couple of months, now has acceptable red blood cell, haemoglobin and haematocrit levels and we suspect is therefore producing EPO off his own bat from (currently) rather unwell kidneys. Often EPO has to be supplemented in these cases as a vital measure. (Lance Armstrong dabbled with this approach but for different reasons). I can not begin to say how exciting this development is, nor its potential for other "end stage" anaemia applications, over and above the improvement for people when this is not an issue. In this person's case, the liver is certainly storing iron, not using it as it might (see Haidut's explanation of calculation on this using ALT), so supplementation would be a big mistake, although it is often given, such is the fascination of 'iron for anaemia' in medical circles.

Thank you Haidut, that the Vit K mechanism is known here rules out potential hypoxia/poisoning which will also cause RBC increase. So in my case, this is definitely good news.
Sheila

You are talking about vitamin K2 here?
I have a friend with atrophic gastritis who has very low iron status and cannot improve it by supplementing iron in any form except IV which is hazardous for her since she has many allergies and her doctor is not very keen on trying it.
So retinyl acetate + vitamin k2 + copper? Anything else? Taurine perhaps? Since it can improve the absorbtion of fat solubles??
 

Sheila

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Hello mirc12354
Yes, I was talking about Vitamin K2. May I suggest you take K2 supplementation slowly, it is powerful and depending on a person's other reserves - fuel, magnesium, calcium etc., it can promote an uncomfortable quickening of metabolism resulting in heating, palpitations, even thyroid storm. With atrophic gastritis, and the fibrosis from recurrent inflammation that comes from that, absorption of anything will be reduced but also irritation/sensitivity to supplements (or anything really) will be increased as you know. Taurine may actually exacerbate things further because it may be able to cause bile-related gastric irritation due to back flow, as taurine is a powerful liver bile stimulant. My suggestion is to go very slowly if you think that taurine is appropriate. I might be more likely to use gelatine here, if she can tolerate it as a soother and simple protein source first and it does not generate a histamine response. I would avoid copper supplementation in favour of copper rich foods (goats dairy, shellfish), as I have found it to be irritating for some, not sure entirely the mechanism there. One thing at a time might be an idea allowing her to check reactions and go from there. Of course the underlying reason for developing such unpleasant and recurrent gastritis will likely also need attention.
I hope this helps clarify.
Kind regards
Sheila
 

Pointless

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I've been having trouble increasing my ferritin lately. It recently went up quite a bit. I thought it might be the riboflavin I've been taking because I started on that to enhance iron utilization, but maybe it's the mk-4 I started a few months ago.
 

Pointless

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Are there no safe forms of supplemental iron for anemic people?

As I understand it, no, iron is never safe. It may be necessary. But I think the idea is that a deficiency of certain nutrients like vitamin a, k2, maybe b12?, can be the real cause of anemia. Liver is a good source of iron. Iron shouldn't be eliminated from the diet, but it should be kept to an appropriate level.

Supplements helped me raise my ferritin where iron ills failed to do so. I blame riboflavin and k2.
 
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As I understand it, no, iron is never safe. It may be necessary. But I think the idea is that a deficiency of certain nutrients like vitamin a, k2, maybe b12?, can be the real cause of anemia. Liver is a good source of iron. Iron shouldn't be eliminated from the diet, but it should be kept to an appropriate level.

Supplements helped me raise my ferritin where iron ills failed to do so. I blame riboflavin and k2.

Yea my ferritin is always low. I think it makes me feel cold. Do you notice any symptoms from low ferritin?
 

jaakkima

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I have long been under the impression that transferrin saturation % is what you want to look at to get an idea of real iron stores/deficiency. Ray backed that up in an email to me maybe a year ago, though with characteristic laconic delivery saying it "usually" is representative while ferritin etc is not. If anyone can say that low transferrin sat. %, low ferritin, and low serum iron can occur together with iron being stored e.g. in the liver, please let me know as it contradicts everything I've seen. I am still wavering between thinking of supplementing iron due to very low sat % etc, and not, because nothing seems to make a difference so far and I don't know if real iron deficiency is causing or exacerbating my health problems. I am guessing correcting thyroid function will fix it in the long term but some medical obstacles currently exist for me doing that. I found a heme iron supplement (Proferrin), am wondering if that is any safer than others. Anyway, it's good to distinguish what specifically is being talked about when "iron status" is mentioned. There are some info sheets on irondisorders.org that clarify the different types of anemia and when iron is actually deficient.
 
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I have long been under the impression that transferrin saturation % is what you want to look at to get an idea of real iron stores/deficiency. Ray backed that up in an email to me maybe a year ago, though with characteristic laconic delivery saying it "usually" is representative while ferritin etc is not. If anyone can say that low transferrin sat. %, low ferritin, and low serum iron can occur together with iron being stored e.g. in the liver, please let me know as it contradicts everything I've seen. I am still wavering between thinking of supplementing iron due to very low sat % etc, and not, because nothing seems to make a difference so far and I don't know if real iron deficiency is causing or exacerbating my health problems. I am guessing correcting thyroid function will fix it in the long term but some medical obstacles currently exist for me doing that. I found a heme iron supplement (Proferrin), am wondering if that is any safer than others. Anyway, it's good to distinguish what specifically is being talked about when "iron status" is mentioned. There are some info sheets on irondisorders.org that clarify the different types of anemia and when iron is actually deficient.

Have you tried eating liver? It has a LOT of iron, and eating it twice a week has helped a few people with iron deficiency avoid iron supplementation. Have you checked cortisol levels? High cortisol can lead to iron deficiency anemia.
 

jaakkima

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Have you tried eating liver? It has a LOT of iron, and eating it twice a week has helped a few people with iron deficiency avoid iron supplementation. Have you checked cortisol levels? High cortisol can lead to iron deficiency anemia.

I could try more frequent liver again. I went through some periods where I ate a ton of liver, like every other day. Oddly this was before I ever found out these blood results (which I tested a few times). But I was using high dose aspirin in those days, so maybe that didn't help.
+1 re:cortisol. I will try to have it in my next battery of labs; it's among a few I never tested.
 

BigChad

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Hello mirc12354
Yes, I was talking about Vitamin K2. May I suggest you take K2 supplementation slowly, it is powerful and depending on a person's other reserves - fuel, magnesium, calcium etc., it can promote an uncomfortable quickening of metabolism resulting in heating, palpitations, even thyroid storm. With atrophic gastritis, and the fibrosis from recurrent inflammation that comes from that, absorption of anything will be reduced but also irritation/sensitivity to supplements (or anything really) will be increased as you know. Taurine may actually exacerbate things further because it may be able to cause bile-related gastric irritation due to back flow, as taurine is a powerful liver bile stimulant. My suggestion is to go very slowly if you think that taurine is appropriate. I might be more likely to use gelatine here, if she can tolerate it as a soother and simple protein source first and it does not generate a histamine response. I would avoid copper supplementation in favour of copper rich foods (goats dairy, shellfish), as I have found it to be irritating for some, not sure entirely the mechanism there. One thing at a time might be an idea allowing her to check reactions and go from there. Of course the underlying reason for developing such unpleasant and recurrent gastritis will likely also need attention.
I hope this helps clarify.
Kind regards
Sheila

can you expand further. does vitamin K2 (mk4 and mk7) and taurine supplementation cause trouble for people with autoimmune thyroid issues or hypothyroid issues?
 
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Have you tried eating liver? It has a LOT of iron, and eating it twice a week has helped a few people with iron deficiency avoid iron supplementation. Have you checked cortisol levels? High cortisol can lead to iron deficiency anemia.
This article seems to imply the opposite

 
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