Impossible Milk Is Incoming

[mrchibbs]

@Jennifer @R J

It seems we all have the same dreams!

I too want a greenhouse, and I can't wait to watch that video. I know some farmers here who have a greenhouse that's well isolated and they're able to reach 20C even when it's -20C on a sunny day in the middle of winter.

I'm pretty sure it has to be possible to create an environment to grow sweet fruits even in the northern hemisphere.

So much to learn! Thank you for sharing your emails!

 

[R J]

@Jennifer @R J

It seems we all have the same dreams!

I too want a greenhouse, and I can't wait to watch that video. I know some farmers here who have a greenhouse that's well isolated and they're able to reach 20C even when it's -20C on a sunny day in the middle of winter.

I'm pretty sure it has to be possible to create an environment to grow sweet fruits even in the northern hemisphere.

So much to learn! Thank you for sharing your emails!

Imagine if commercially raised plant ripened fruits could be grown in Northern climates. Imagine eating a pineapple grown in greenhouse in Montana!

 

[Jennifer]

An indoor grow room is calming. If you are using relatively low wattage digital lights the EMF probably isn’t that bad either. I am building a home that will use heat from the grow room to warm the living area in the winter and also to heat the driveway so nobody has to shovel :). I want to have a greenhouse too— warming it in winter is tough without spending a lot on natural gas. I am thinking of building it into a hillside and capturing some radiant heat from the earth that way.

Smart man!

I used to live on a defunct rhododendron and azalea nursery with a greenhouse and it was really nice. They put up a giant cellphone / radio tower right behind it though. It is right by the ocean and walking distance to the metro area so it was like a little oasis. The developers planned to bulldoze the whole area and put up industrial lots, but some of the homeowners were refusing to sell. They put in a Walmart down the street and bought out the dairy farm to develop. Miss it.

Go figure. Paved paradise. So sad!

@Jennifer @R J

It seems we all have the same dreams!

I too want a greenhouse, and I can't wait to watch that video. I know some farmers here who have a greenhouse that's well isolated and they're able to reach 20C even when it's -20C on a sunny day in the middle of winter.

I'm pretty sure it has to be possible to create an environment to grow sweet fruits even in the northern hemisphere.

So much to learn! Thank you for sharing your emails!

You’re welcome! :)

Very cool! I’m planning on starting an American pawpaw (Asimina tribola) in the spring and , don’t tell the other Peaters, but I’m currently growing both a Caribbean and Hass avocado plant.

Imagine if commercially raised plant ripened fruits could be grown in Northern climates. Imagine eating a pineapple grown in greenhouse in Montana!

I would be in 7th heaven if I could grow Kaua’i sugarloaf pineapples in New Hampshire.

 

[R J]

Smart man!

Go figure. Paved paradise. So sad!

You’re welcome! :)

Very cool! I’m planning on starting an American pawpaw (Asimina tribola) in the spring and , don’t tell the other Peaters, but I’m currently growing both a Caribbean and Hass avocado plant indoors.

I would be in 7th heaven if I could grow Kaua’i sugarloaf pineapples in New Hampshire.

I mean, you could, but the cost to heat, humidify, and light the plant to emulate tropics would probably make it a $100 fruit. I remember the upscale grocery store had $20 pineapples. Never tried one...

 

[Jennifer]

I mean, you could, but the cost to heat, humidify, and light the plant to emulate tropics would probably make it a $100 fruit. I remember the upscale grocery store had $20 pineapples. Never tried one...

Hmm...good point! Sounds like those insanely expensive, specially grown fruit sold in Japan.

 

[gaze]

I suspect so too, though, in an ideal state where stress is low and our tissues, like our thyroid and intestines, are in excellent and well functioning condition, I think milk in particular, especially for us northerners where plants are seasonal, may always have an advantage going for it, mainly the fact that it’s a concentrated source of low irritating (lack of fiber), low allergenic/anti-nutrient, protein, calcium and lactose rich (for the carbs but also because lactose in particular helps with calcium absorption), calories.

Though we can reduce the fiber and allergens in plants, in the case of fruit, growing conditions are poor in many countries and the fruit shipped in is picked early and stressed and thus high in serotonin (per Ray), but then there’s always the option of growing year round in greenhouses. I always wanted to live near the ocean and have a greenhouse large enough to house an orchard and rose garden — a kind of romantic and magical place to escape to when it’s snowing outside, integrating the two worlds — and came across this greenhouse in Iceland that is heated by geothermal energy:



Thanks for mentioning Healing with Whole Foods. I’ll check it out! I’ll have to go through my old iPad for all of our exchanges, but here’s one regarding fruitarianism that I had saved in my email:

On Feb 18, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Jennifer wrote:

Hi Ray,

I'm writing to you in hopes of getting your opinion on something that I find troubling.

When I was 26, I started eating a low-fat/high-carb, all fruit diet. The first year I transitioned to all fruit by including potatoes and sweet potatoes in my diet, along with small amounts of tender leafy green lettuces. By the second year, I had completely transitioned over to nothing but fruits and a pound or two of tender leafy greens a day. I started out on the diet consuming around 2500 calories, but was dropping weight so I upped my calories till I was at 3000 per day. Despite all the calories, I developed a protein deficiency, severe osteoporosis and fractured half my spine all by age 28. I had to relearn how to walk because many of the fractures compressed leaving my spine deformed.

There has been talk recently, on forums dedicated to your work, about eating a fruitarian diet and that you advocate an all fruit diet as safe and optimal. They say that keto acids from potatoes can replace milk and eggs as a protein source so there's no need to consume animal products. Given my experience with an all fruit diet, I know it's not safe for me, but would like to get your opinion on it and its safety so that those who are questioning doing such a diet can be better informed to avoid ending up like me.

Thank you very much for your time, Ray. I greatly appreciate it.

On Feb 18, 2015, at 4:20 PM, Ray Peat wrote:

I recommend a diet including milk, eggs, cheese, orange juice and some other fruits, sea food, certain meats (emphasizing gelatinous things), and occasionally liver. I usually recommend some butter, coconut oil, and some occasional olive oil (for example with a carrot salad). I think any active adult should get at least 100 grams of protein per day.

Did you cook the things while you were on that diet?

what I find odd is someone on 2000 calories of just starch (Such as the McDougall followers) are generally weight stable for a while until other problems show up down the line, but many who try only fruit have similar experiences as yourself despite increasing calories. I find it strange because Ray talks about how sucrose maintains mineral balance better than fruit, although clearly you had an opposite experience. Starch as far as am I’m aware doesn’t have that much protein where it would make that big of a difference in weight stability compared to fruit, although I’m not sure. Do you have any thoughts on weight stability on a fruit diet and why it doesn’t work even on such high calories? Is it the fructose?

 

[Jennifer]

what I find odd is someone on 2000 calories of just starch (Such as the McDougall followers) are generally weight stable for a while until other problems show up down the line, but many who try only fruit have similar experiences as yourself despite increasing calories. I find it strange because Ray talks about how sucrose maintains mineral balance better than fruit, although clearly you had an opposite experience. Starch as far as am I’m aware doesn’t have that much protein where it would make that big of a difference in weight stability compared to fruit, although I’m not sure. Do you have any thoughts on weight stability on a fruit diet and why it doesn’t work even on such high calories? Is it the fructose?

I recall Ray saying that starch is more fattening than fruit, and potatoes supposedly have quite a bit of protein — I think a potato’s protein content appears lower than a bean’s, for example, because of its water content versus a bean’s dry state? I was part of a fruitarian community (30 bananas a day) and quite a few unhappy members reported weight gain eating the same amount of calories I ate. I think in my case, I was running on catabolic adrenaline due to extreme hypothyroidism I was unaware I had at the time, and this caused the wasting of my muscle, bones etc. — I was already struggling to gain weight prior to fruitarianism eating an omnivorous diet (mainly meat, eggs, fruits and veggies). It’s why I couldn’t get doctors to treat me. They saw me and assumed I had an eating disorder, and wrote me off. In one of his articles, Ray talks about people like me who are hypothyroid but don’t get treated because doctors believe hypothyroidism equals overweight, not underweight.

 

[R J]

what I find odd is someone on 2000 calories of just starch (Such as the McDougall followers) are generally weight stable for a while until other problems show up down the line, but many who try only fruit have similar experiences as yourself despite increasing calories. I find it strange because Ray talks about how sucrose maintains mineral balance better than fruit, although clearly you had an opposite experience. Starch as far as am I’m aware doesn’t have that much protein where it would make that big of a difference in weight stability compared to fruit, although I’m not sure. Do you have any thoughts on weight stability on a fruit diet and why it doesn’t work even on such high calories? Is it the fructose?

Can you link or explain more about sucrose vs fruit and mineral balance?

 

[gaze]

Can you link or explain more about sucrose vs fruit and mineral balance?

“Fructose affects the body's ability to retain other nutrients, including magnesium, copper, calcium, and other minerals. Comparing diets with 20% of the calories from fructose or from cornstarch, Holbrook, et al. (1989) concluded "The results indicate that dietary fructose enhances mineral balance." Ordinarily, things (such as thyroid and vitamin D) which improve the retention of magnesium and other nutrients are considered good, but the fructose mythology allows researchers to conclude, after finding an increased magnesium balance, with either 4% or 20% of energy from fructose (compared to cornstarch, bread, and rice), "that dietary fructose adversely affects macromineral homeostasis in humans." (Milne and Nielsen, 2000)."

"An older experiment compared two groups with an otherwise well balanced diet, lacking vitamin D, containing either 68% starch or 68% sucrose. A third group got the starch diet, but with added vitamin D. The rats on the vitamin D deficient starch diet had very low levels of calcium in their blood, and the calcium content of their bones was low, exactly what is expected with the vitamin D deficiency. However, the rats on the sucrose diet, also vitamin D deficient, had normal levels of calcium in their blood. The sucrose, unlike the starch, maintained claim homeostasis. A radioactive calcium tracer showed normal uptake by the bone, and also apparently normal bone development, although their bones were lighter than those receiving vitamin D."

both quotes from Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

 

[R J]

“Fructose affects the body's ability to retain other nutrients, including magnesium, copper, calcium, and other minerals. Comparing diets with 20% of the calories from fructose or from cornstarch, Holbrook, et al. (1989) concluded "The results indicate that dietary fructose enhances mineral balance." Ordinarily, things (such as thyroid and vitamin D) which improve the retention of magnesium and other nutrients are considered good, but the fructose mythology allows researchers to conclude, after finding an increased magnesium balance, with either 4% or 20% of energy from fructose (compared to cornstarch, bread, and rice), "that dietary fructose adversely affects macromineral homeostasis in humans." (Milne and Nielsen, 2000)."

"An older experiment compared two groups with an otherwise well balanced diet, lacking vitamin D, containing either 68% starch or 68% sucrose. A third group got the starch diet, but with added vitamin D. The rats on the vitamin D deficient starch diet had very low levels of calcium in their blood, and the calcium content of their bones was low, exactly what is expected with the vitamin D deficiency. However, the rats on the sucrose diet, also vitamin D deficient, had normal levels of calcium in their blood. The sucrose, unlike the starch, maintained claim homeostasis. A radioactive calcium tracer showed normal uptake by the bone, and also apparently normal bone development, although their bones were lighter than those receiving vitamin D."

both quotes from Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

Thx