Impossible Milk Is Incoming

[R J]

I agree with your take. Im a vegetarian so I have given a lot of thought to the dairy industry. It is not at all a death free industry, and even male calves who arent killed shortly after birth are just fed out for beef. So how vegetarian is my milk really?

Something I did learn though is that with artificial insemination of the female cows ( which is a very mild process, from what Ive seen on Saskdutchkid's youtube channel ), the Semen is sexed so that like close to 90% of the time its a female.

How long you been vegetarian? I’ve thought about going mostly meat free except for liver and gelatin. I’m not sure if health would be as good without.

 

[Michael Mohn]

This graph exemplifies why these environmentalist are mentally ill. Yes, plants absorb CO2 turning it into sugar ergo emit less CO2 as organism who live on breaking down sugar into CO2. Comparing plants with animals in terms of CO2 release is just meaningless

Replacing milk is actually pointless. It's cheap as hell. Has the same carbon emissions as rice.
At least with beef, there's potentially an argument to be made about the high carbon footprint, with milk you're just doing pointless mental masturbation.

 

[TheBeard]

Vegetarians in India do not have a problem with their extremely low standards dairy industry.

Have you been to India? On average Indian people look like the most unhealthy people. They all have joints issues starting from 40-50 years old and terrible weight issues.

 

[michael94]

How long you been vegetarian? I’ve thought about going mostly meat free except for liver and gelatin. I’m not sure if health would be as good without.

Many people might feel worse without meat. Its a convenient food that covers a lot with less drawbacks, especially if you compare it to vegetarian alternatives. I find the concept of gelatin disgusting though, would rather get glycine from other sources regardless or increase glycine "recycling"

Have you been to India? On average Indian people look like the most unhealthy people. They all have joints issues starting from 40-50 years old and terrible weight issues.

Something I have thought about recently, patients on dialysis and otherwise advanced kidney disease are known to have spontaneously rupturing tendons or ligaments. Apparently from hyperphosphatemia. Makes me think a lot joint issues are downstream of the kidneys slowly giving out. Also in terms of joint injuries in ligament straining activities like baseball, tennis, etc. if you are in an acute situation of kidney stress or phosphate mishandling then it would put you at high risk of an injury.

 

[lvysaur]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with raising cows for meat and milk. Since they lack reason they don't need freedom either.

This is my position as well, to rebut those who compare animal husbandry to slavery or genocide. Organisms only deserve as much freedom and privilege as they're willing to fight for. That applies to Black folks in the US, and it also applies to cattle.

Have you been to India? On average Indian people look like the most unhealthy people.

India is a case study in how to do everything wrong. Take people who are biologically adapted to a hot climate coconut/saturated fat omnivorous diet, and put them on a PUFA-filled vegetarian diet of mainly unsprouted beans.

Everyone suffers the ill effects of PUFA, not only because they're bad but because they're uniquely susceptibe to them as tropical people, and the lack of meat/protein causes further degeneration via blood sugar issues. Most Indians are severely devoid of critical thought and are obsessed with aping either the west or Hindu nationalism.

 

[R J]

This is my position as well, to rebut those who compare animal husbandry to slavery or genocide. Organisms only deserve as much freedom and privilege as they're willing to fight for. That applies to Black folks in the US, and it also applies to cattle.

India is a case study in how to do everything wrong. Take people who are biologically adapted to a hot climate coconut/saturated fat omnivorous diet, and put them on a PUFA-filled vegetarian diet of mainly unsprouted beans.

Everyone suffers the ill effects of PUFA, not only because they're bad but because they're uniquely susceptibe to them as tropical people, and the lack of meat/protein causes further degeneration via blood sugar issues. Most Indians are severely devoid of critical thought and are obsessed with aping either the west or Hindu nationalism.

Indian example is jarring because the spiritual texts from there give one image to strive for yet compare to actual example and the difference is noticeable, to say the least.

They seem to be the biggest followers of the official line. Unquestioning adherence to mainstream narratives. Chinese are probably similar.

 

[TheBeard]

Indian example is jarring because the spiritual texts from there give one image to strive for yet compare to actual example and the difference is noticeable, to say the least.

They seem to be the biggest followers of the official line. Unquestioning adherence to mainstream narratives. Chinese are probably similar.

I have worked with both in their respective countries, Indians are way worse.
Chinese are insensitive to the west for the most part and follow their own guidelines.
At the top they used to have incentives to copy the west for some technologies but now they are all caught up, and are living in their own bubbles.

Indian mimick the west thinking we discovered the holy grales in every industry, and are making their shitty version of it.

 

[Jennifer]

I agree with your take. Im a vegetarian so I have given a lot of thought to the dairy industry. It is not at all a death free industry, and even male calves who arent killed shortly after birth are just fed out for beef. So how vegetarian is my milk really?

I’ve asked myself the same question but the more I research, the more I’ve come to question if plants are always the more ethical choice. I was aware of the usual ethical arguments made against veganism like the death and suffering from habitat displacement, tilling, combine harvesters and pesticides but researching further, it was an eye opener learning about every strategy employed in crop protection and pest management programs, particularly the direct killing (shooting, trapping etc.) of animals, because I had never grown crops on a large scale before and had no clue that while the blood wasn’t on my hands, it was on the hands of the farmer who grew my food. The idea that I could somehow detach myself from other living beings as if we aren’t all connected and don’t need each other was of good intention but flawed IMO.

I honestly don’t know what the perfect solution is or that there could ever be one but I’m trying my best to reduce suffering for both human and non-human animals as much as I can. Based on my current understanding and context (mainly my health/the foods I tolerate and location), the best I could come up with was a lacto-fruitarian diet of mostly local fruit and raw goat milk from a local grass-based biodynamic farm that practices calf at foot (also goes by calf with cow, the Madre method, Ahimsa milk, slaughter-free farming etc.). The kids stay with their mothers and only one milking goes to customers. Bonus is the diet is low waste since the farm reuses my mason jars for the milk and most of my fruit comes package-free. Below you can see that the kids stay with their mothers even during milking:



In case anyone is interested, below are some farms I came across that supposedly practice the methods mentioned above — I’ve only visited the farms in NH so I can’t say for certain if the others practice what they claim:

About LDF(in CA)
Our Vision — calf + clover creamery (in CT)
Compassionate — Toddy Pond Farm (in ME)
Our Dairy (in NC)
Four Winds Farm Peterborough (in NH)
About — BENEDIKT DAIRY (in NH)
Home - Gita Nagari Eco Farm & Sanctuary (in PA)
Ahimsa Milk – Slaughter Free Milk (in the UK)
Home (in the UK)

Below you can search for farms (US) in your area that may practice more humane methods:

Real Milk Finder

Here’s an article on the Madre method:

Calf Rearing with the Madre Method | EcoFarming Daily

 

[lvysaur]

Unquestioning adherence to mainstream narratives. Chinese are probably similar.

Chinese > Westerners >= Indians

westerners are almost as brainwashed as Indians, with the only difference being that they have entire continents' worth of natural resources buffering them from the consequences of their collective actions/thought.

the actual Chinese people I know seem very mentally flexible and calm for the most part. Contrast that with the dogmatic and emotional political record of the average American. And yes, America is technically not the west, but its cultural influence is quickly becoming the "norm" in both Europe and Japan/Korea.

 

[R J]

Chinese > Westerners >= Indians

westerners are almost as brainwashed as Indians, with the only difference being that they have entire continents' worth of natural resources buffering them from the consequences of their collective actions/thought.

the actual Chinese people I know seem very mentally flexible and calm for the most part. Contrast that with the dogmatic and emotional political record of the average American. And yes, America is technically not the west, but its cultural influence is quickly becoming the "norm" in both Europe and Japan/Korea.

America isn’t the west?

 

[lvysaur]

America isn’t the west?

It's only part of it

 

[mrchibbs]

@Jennifer

Great post! The baby cows/sheep are sooooo cute.

I think even Ray is very open to a fruitarian/vegan diet, he's said a few enigmatic/fascinating things about potentially combining fruits to get all of the protein, and how a vegan diet could be good by including potatoes, sprouts, mushrooms etc.

Personally, I would like to be a vegan ideologically, but there's so much to gain from dairy especially, and collagen-rich cuts of meat. But I think it's good to strive for a more ethical diet by sourcing locally and finding farmers who try to give their animals good living conditions.

 

[Ras]

It’s worse than just added vitamins. The most popular brand “oatly” has rapeseed oil in it

Not to mention the glyphosate.

 

[gaze]

I’ve asked myself the same question but the more I research, the more I’ve come to question if plants are always the more ethical choice. I was aware of the usual ethical arguments made against veganism like the death and suffering from habitat displacement, tilling, combine harvesters and pesticides but researching further, it was an eye opener learning about every strategy employed in crop protection and pest management programs, particularly the direct killing (shooting, trapping etc.) of animals, because I had never grown crops on a large scale before and had no clue that while the blood wasn’t on my hands, it was on the hands of the farmer who grew my food. The idea that I could somehow detach myself from other living beings as if we aren’t all connected and don’t need each other was of good intention but flawed IMO.

I honestly don’t know what the perfect solution is or that there could ever be one but I’m trying my best to reduce suffering for both human and non-human animals as much as I can. Based on my current understanding and context (mainly my health/the foods I tolerate and location), the best I could come up with was a lacto-fruitarian diet of mostly local fruit and raw goat milk from a local grass-based biodynamic farm that practices calf at foot (also goes by calf with cow, the Madre method, Ahimsa milk, slaughter-free farming etc.). The kids stay with their mothers and only one milking goes to customers. Bonus is the diet is low waste since the farm reuses my mason jars for the milk and most of my fruit comes package-free. Below you can see that the kids stay with their mothers even during milking:

View attachment 19928 View attachment 19929 View attachment 19930

In case anyone is interested, below are some farms I came across that supposedly practice the methods mentioned above — I’ve only visited the farms in NH so I can’t say for certain if the others practice what they claim:

About LDF(in CA)
Our Vision — calf + clover creamery (in CT)
Compassionate — Toddy Pond Farm (in ME)
Our Dairy (in NC)
Four Winds Farm Peterborough (in NH)
About — BENEDIKT DAIRY (in NH)
Home - Gita Nagari Eco Farm & Sanctuary (in PA)
Ahimsa Milk – Slaughter Free Milk (in the UK)
Home (in the UK)

Below you can search for farms (US) in your area that may practice more humane methods:

Real Milk Finder

Here’s an article on the Madre method:

Calf Rearing with the Madre Method | EcoFarming Daily

Thanks for sharing this. Long dream farm in california looks great, their chickens diet of sprouted barley, whey, fruits, vegtebles, yogurt along with the pasture is just about the best I've ever seen for eggs available for purchase. Going to order some once they're back in stock...along with the coffee ice cream which also looks awesome.

 

[Jennifer]

Thanks, @mrchibbs! :)

Yeah, I’m familiar with Ray’s opinion on fruitarianism and have corresponded with him about it in the past. I’ve tried the diet two times in my life, the first time for over two years, and the second time (out of necessity) for over 3 years, even experimented with mushroom and potato protein the second time, but always ran into problems and unfortunately, it was only after years of following the diet, when the damage was done, that they revealed themselves, for example, cavities. By the time one surfaced, part of the tooth broke off and I had never had a problem with my teeth prior to the diet. By adding the raw milk, I get all the benefits I experienced as a raw fruitarian (there were actually quite a lot), while maintaining healthy tissues. Goat milk has been amazing for my skin, hair, nails, teeth, muscle mass and overall body composition, digestion, anxiety and migraines. No longer living with debilitating and vomit inducing gut pain and migraines has been such a blessing.

Yeah, I can understand that. I wanted so badly to stay vegan for ethical reasons, that is until I discovered that I caused less death by not being vegan. It was hard wrapping my head around the fact that for me, eating 100% plant-based is the more unethical option.

You’re welcome, @commas! :)

 

[mrchibbs]

Thanks, @mrchibbs! :)

Yeah, I’m familiar with Ray’s opinion on fruitarianism and have corresponded with him about it in the past. I’ve tried the diet two times in my life, the first time for over two years, and the second time (out of necessity) for over 3 years, even experimented with mushroom and potato protein the second time, but always ran into problems and unfortunately, it was only after years of following the diet, when the damage was done, that they revealed themselves, for example, cavities. By the time one surfaced, part of the tooth broke off and I had never had a problem with my teeth prior to the diet. By adding the raw milk, I get all the benefits I experienced as a raw fruitarian (there were actually quite a lot), while maintaining healthy tissues. Goat milk has been amazing for my skin, hair, nails, teeth, muscle mass and overall body composition, digestion, anxiety and migraines. No longer living with debilitating and vomit inducing gut pain and migraines has been such a blessing.

Yeah, I can understand that. I wanted so badly to stay vegan for ethical reasons, that is until I discovered that I caused less death by not being vegan. It was hard wrapping my head around the fact that for me, eating 100% plant-based is the more unethical option.

You’re welcome, @commas! :)

Fascinating! I totally agree with you. I like the book Healing with Whole Foods which emphasizes veganism but also acknowledges the importance of animal foods when necessary. And sadly, I think they are totally necessary in the world we live in because of the amount of stress we're under.

Do you have any of your correspondence with Ray on fruitarian/veganism? I'd love to hear more about what he thinks of these things but I don't really want to send him an email about something he's already discussed.

 

[Based Kantian]

Chinese > Westerners >= Indians

westerners are almost as brainwashed as Indians, with the only difference being that they have entire continents' worth of natural resources buffering them from the consequences of their collective actions/thought.

the actual Chinese people I know seem very mentally flexible and calm for the most part. Contrast that with the dogmatic and emotional political record of the average American. And yes, America is technically not the west, but its cultural influence is quickly becoming the "norm" in both Europe and Japan/Korea.

China truly is the land of the future. The eating habits and food supply are pretty awful in most of the country though.

 

[Jennifer]

Fascinating! I totally agree with you. I like the book Healing with Whole Foods which emphasizes veganism but also acknowledges the importance of animal foods when necessary. And sadly, I think they are totally necessary in the world we live in because of the amount of stress we're under.

Do you have any of your correspondence with Ray on fruitarian/veganism? I'd love to hear more about what he thinks of these things but I don't really want to send him an email about something he's already discussed.

I suspect so too, though, in an ideal state where stress is low and our tissues, like our thyroid and intestines, are in excellent and well functioning condition, I think milk in particular, especially for us northerners where plants are seasonal, may always have an advantage going for it, mainly the fact that it’s a concentrated source of low irritating (lack of fiber), low allergenic/anti-nutrient, protein, calcium and lactose rich (for the carbs but also because lactose in particular helps with calcium absorption), calories.

Though we can reduce the fiber and allergens in plants, in the case of fruit, growing conditions are poor in many countries and the fruit shipped in is picked early and stressed and thus high in serotonin (per Ray), but then there’s always the option of growing year round in greenhouses. I always wanted to live near the ocean and have a greenhouse large enough to house an orchard and rose garden — a kind of romantic and magical place to escape to when it’s snowing outside, integrating the two worlds — and came across this greenhouse in Iceland that is heated by geothermal energy:



Thanks for mentioning Healing with Whole Foods. I’ll check it out! I’ll have to go through my old iPad for all of our exchanges, but here’s one regarding fruitarianism that I had saved in my email:

On Feb 18, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Jennifer wrote:

Hi Ray,

I'm writing to you in hopes of getting your opinion on something that I find troubling.

When I was 26, I started eating a low-fat/high-carb, all fruit diet. The first year I transitioned to all fruit by including potatoes and sweet potatoes in my diet, along with small amounts of tender leafy green lettuces. By the second year, I had completely transitioned over to nothing but fruits and a pound or two of tender leafy greens a day. I started out on the diet consuming around 2500 calories, but was dropping weight so I upped my calories till I was at 3000 per day. Despite all the calories, I developed a protein deficiency, severe osteoporosis and fractured half my spine all by age 28. I had to relearn how to walk because many of the fractures compressed leaving my spine deformed.

There has been talk recently, on forums dedicated to your work, about eating a fruitarian diet and that you advocate an all fruit diet as safe and optimal. They say that keto acids from potatoes can replace milk and eggs as a protein source so there's no need to consume animal products. Given my experience with an all fruit diet, I know it's not safe for me, but would like to get your opinion on it and its safety so that those who are questioning doing such a diet can be better informed to avoid ending up like me.

Thank you very much for your time, Ray. I greatly appreciate it.

On Feb 18, 2015, at 4:20 PM, Ray Peat wrote:

I recommend a diet including milk, eggs, cheese, orange juice and some other fruits, sea food, certain meats (emphasizing gelatinous things), and occasionally liver. I usually recommend some butter, coconut oil, and some occasional olive oil (for example with a carrot salad). I think any active adult should get at least 100 grams of protein per day.

Did you cook the things while you were on that diet?

 

[lvysaur]

The eating habits and food supply are pretty awful in most of the country though.

Definitely. It's unfortunate.

Paradoxically though, I think EAsians have much better food habits when environmental access is removed as a confounding factor.

In the Korean marts here they often have "fruit boxes" with individually wrapped pieces of fruit, they're usually very ripe. Especially with apples, they lack that green unripeness that normal grocery (and even organic) apples have. They're lower sugar, but I'd rather have something ripe and low sugar than unripe and high sugar.

Also there's obviously a MUCH bigger emphasis on freshness, beyond anything seen in the west (to the point of excess even, eating fish that are raw and still squirming). But having live animals slaughtered at purchase is an amazing option to have.

And then there's stuff like Fuji apples, Wagyu/Kobe beef, etc, which were all developed only in the last half century with a tiny speckle of farmland on the crowded nation of Japan.

Of course dairy quality will probably remain a non-starter.

 

[R J]

I suspect so too, though, in an ideal state where stress is low and our tissues, like our thyroid and intestines, are in excellent and well functioning condition, I think milk in particular, especially for us northerners where plants are seasonal, may always have an advantage going for it, mainly the fact that it’s a concentrated source of low irritating (lack of fiber), low allergenic/anti-nutrient, protein, calcium and lactose rich (for the carbs but also because lactose in particular helps with calcium absorption), calories.

Though we can reduce the fiber and allergens in plants, in the case of fruit, growing conditions are poor in many countries and the fruit shipped in is picked early and stressed and thus high in serotonin (per Ray), but then there’s always the option of growing year round in greenhouses. I always wanted to live near the ocean and have a greenhouse large enough to house an orchard and rose garden — a kind of romantic and magical place to escape to when it’s snowing outside, integrating the two worlds — and came across this greenhouse in Iceland that is heated by geothermal energy:



Thanks for mentioning Healing with Whole Foods. I’ll check it out! I’ll have to go through my old iPad for all of our exchanges, but here’s one regarding fruitarianism that I had saved in my email:

On Feb 18, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Jennifer wrote:

Hi Ray,

I'm writing to you in hopes of getting your opinion on something that I find troubling.

When I was 26, I started eating a low-fat/high-carb, all fruit diet. The first year I transitioned to all fruit by including potatoes and sweet potatoes in my diet, along with small amounts of tender leafy green lettuces. By the second year, I had completely transitioned over to nothing but fruits and a pound or two of tender leafy greens a day. I started out on the diet consuming around 2500 calories, but was dropping weight so I upped my calories till I was at 3000 per day. Despite all the calories, I developed a protein deficiency, severe osteoporosis and fractured half my spine all by age 28. I had to relearn how to walk because many of the fractures compressed leaving my spine deformed.

There has been talk recently, on forums dedicated to your work, about eating a fruitarian diet and that you advocate an all fruit diet as safe and optimal. They say that keto acids from potatoes can replace milk and eggs as a protein source so there's no need to consume animal products. Given my experience with an all fruit diet, I know it's not safe for me, but would like to get your opinion on it and its safety so that those who are questioning doing such a diet can be better informed to avoid ending up like me.

Thank you very much for your time, Ray. I greatly appreciate it.

On Feb 18, 2015, at 4:20 PM, Ray Peat wrote:

I recommend a diet including milk, eggs, cheese, orange juice and some other fruits, sea food, certain meats (emphasizing gelatinous things), and occasionally liver. I usually recommend some butter, coconut oil, and some occasional olive oil (for example with a carrot salad). I think any active adult should get at least 100 grams of protein per day.

Did you cook the things while you were on that diet?

An indoor grow room is calming. If you are using relatively low wattage digital lights the EMF probably isn’t that bad either. I am building a home that will use heat from the grow room to warm the living area in the winter and also to heat the driveway so nobody has to shovel :). I want to have a greenhouse too— warming it in winter is tough without spending a lot on natural gas. I am thinking of building it into a hillside and capturing some radiant heat from the earth that way.

I used to live on a defunct rhododendron and azalea nursery with a greenhouse and it was really nice. They put up a giant cellphone / radio tower right behind it though. It is right by the ocean and walking distance to the metro area so it was like a little oasis. The developers planned to bulldoze the whole area and put up industrial lots, but some of the homeowners were refusing to sell. They put in a Walmart down the street and bought out the dairy farm to develop. Miss it.