I'm Trying Separate Meals - Carbs Or Fat Not Both

[LiveWire]

@danielbb
Would you consider 2 eggs a fatty meal i.e. not to be combined with OJ? (My everyday breakfast).

At what grams of fat does meal become too fatty to combine with sugar?

 

[danielbb]

@danielbb
Would you consider 2 eggs a fatty meal i.e. not to be combined with OJ? (My everyday breakfast).

At what grams of fat does meal become too fatty to combine with sugar?

Great questions @LiveWire.

For me, eggs are miracle drugs like just about every other whole food source I consume. I eat them when the whim occurs to me. I think people, including me, can obsess about things especially when they receive information from sources like here. Someone posts that zinc helped their testosterone production and it is easy to think that might help me. I believe even "healthy substances" (supplements or some food source) can be over-dosed if obsessed about. I've found my hormonal system and health is back to 100% simply by eating whole-foods that do not contain added toxins. Based on that, I've come to the conclusion, in my personal context, that supplements are unnecessary. I do not like to think or obsess about things. I go by whim and feel alone and personal taste which can only be decided by the individual alone.

If you read my posts in this thread and other threads where I have commented about mixing fat and high-carbohydrate sources, I've talked about mixing thresholds and various strategies for keeping things separate. In situations where I want to eat lots of carbs, I try and keep my fat low (below some threshold). In situations where I want to consume more fat, I try and keep my carbs low (below some threshold).

I mentioned that even though the individual elements of some food source may be healthy in and of themselves (see my comments about milk above) that the combination may cause metabolic problems like retaining water. I was drinking 8 glasses of milk a day to satisfy my protein requirements and could not for the life of me figure out why I was gaining weight on a low-caloric load. That led me to the discovery there must be something in the combination of elements beyond the health benefits of the individual elements alone. The Randle-Cycle explained this for me. It explains why people who go on a low-carb Atkins/keto/Paleo diet lose weight because they no longer mix fat and sugar. It explains why low fat systems (e.g., Vegan) work to lose weight because they no longer mix fat and sugar. I believe each one of these systems work to shed body fat yet are unsustainable however. Who wants to lead a restricted life-style like that the rest of their lives? I am saying its possible to eat only those foods that only you know satisfy your personal desires without metabolic penalty. No need to demonize sugar like the low-carb systems tend to do. No need to demonize fat like the low fat systems tend to do. I've found either sugar or fat works perfectly as a clean energy source - at least for me.

With respect to eggs, you can look at them in many ways. I like to eat my eggs and meat without thinking too much. Therefore I just classify them up front as a fat meal and usually consume them with a low carb fruit or vegetable. Egg whites, for example, contain no fat and that is another strategy to eat some eggs and load with a high-carbohydrate at the same time. It's possible, that in your personal context and mixing threshold that is personal to you, you can eat two eggs alongside a bowl of oatmeal loaded with brown sugar along with orange juice and not suffer any metabolic penalty. Two eggs is about 10-12 grams of fat and you may find that is too much fat for you to be mixed with anything other than a low-carb source. You may find your personal mixing threshold is about 1 egg mixed with a high-carbohydrate source. You may also find you have a higher tolerance than me for mixing sugar and fat. All I am suggesting is be accountable to the scale everyday and consider everything you ate the day before. None of us are smart enough to predict to someone else how their body may react to 1) a given substance and 2) a combination of substances let alone have a clue on what their individual taste-buds may be like. I am suggesting these things can be easily figured out with simple biofeedback using a scale and testing the combinations.

 

[Peatful]

Today:

1. Started with honey, orange juice.

2. Later, egg and full fat cheese

3. Later, juice and dates

4. Later, potatoes, very lean lamb

5. Later, stewed fruit

Interestingly, my temperatures stayed up much higher than I’d thought they would. After the egg and cheese, I felt like I wanted carbs but I didn’t have any, and I did not have a stress reaction (my temperatures stayed around 99F.)

0:04-1:00 explains why this was ideal





Isn’t the Randal Effect talking about PUFA blocking glycolysis?
That’s my limited understanding.

Personally, and I could write a separate post on this- but I hesitate for various reasons- but the bad thinking, the bad understanding, the bad assumptions on RPF lately really troubles me.

There seems to have been a shift from supporting Peats work and our own personal hits and misses-> and shared knowledge of that... to a place of challenging Peats work, or simply (unknowingly?) misinterpreting it.

Maybe it has been like this since 2012 but RPF was such a balanced place for me in November 2017 when I found it- and I just get a different sense now.
I hate seeing many posters no longer here....
But, I now understand why they left.

 

[Peatful]

Ok
This is helpful:

 

[Dotdash]

0:04-1:00 explains why this was ideal





Isn’t the Randal Effect talking about PUFA blocking glycolysis?
That’s my limited understanding.

Personally, and I could write a separate post on this- but I hesitate for various reasons- but the bad thinking, the bad understanding, the bad assumptions on RPF lately really troubles me.

There seems to have been a shift from supporting Peats work and our own personal hits and misses-> and shared knowledge of that... to a place of challenging Peats work, or simply (unknowingly?) misinterpreting it.

Maybe it has been like this since 2012 but RPF was such a balanced place for me in November 2017 when I found it- and I just get a different sense now.
I hate seeing many posters no longer here....
But, I now understand why they left.

Thank you for sharing that clip and the successive one. I had forgotten the importance of ingesting carbs 15-20 min prior to a heavy protein meal and have been wondering why I was getting hypo effects from what seemed to be a fairly balanced C-P-F ratio. Also, it occurs to me RP suggests the majority of fat be consumed later in the day because muscle at rest predominately utilizes fat. Thanks again for your posting of the clips!

 

[tankasnowgod]

0:04-1:00 explains why this was ideal





Isn’t the Randal Effect talking about PUFA blocking glycolysis?
That’s my limited understanding.

Personally, and I could write a separate post on this- but I hesitate for various reasons- but the bad thinking, the bad understanding, the bad assumptions on RPF lately really troubles me.

There seems to have been a shift from supporting Peats work and our own personal hits and misses-> and shared knowledge of that... to a place of challenging Peats work, or simply (unknowingly?) misinterpreting it.

Maybe it has been like this since 2012 but RPF was such a balanced place for me in November 2017 when I found it- and I just get a different sense now.
I hate seeing many posters no longer here....
But, I now understand why they left.

Why do you think this thread is not in line with Peat's research? I haven't gotten that from any post (although I have seen it in other popular threads). This is more about weight loss, a topic Peat really hasn't discussed much. If you think there is a misunderstanding of Peat's work in this thread, what is it?

 

[ecstatichamster]

If anything this is a way to implement Dr. Peat’s stress on the importance of the Randle cycle.

In that video he says that free fatty acids inhibit sugar metabolism very very quickly. 15 minutes. It makes sense to me, that this could be piece of the puzzle and is completely in line with what I’ve read and listened to from Dr. Peat himself.

Yes, Dr. Peat says you should never eat protein without carbs. That could be a no-no if you have a fatty meal. I just ate some beef sausage, an egg and some cheese. I’m not about to eat carbs. I suppose I will trigger a cortisol response in an hour or two, but maybe the fat in the food will power my body enough to avoid that.

If I get a stress reaction my temperatures will plummet so I can tell.

It’s just an experiment at this point. I’ve been on it about 3 days and find that it seems workable. As @danielbb explained, the scale makes a handy feedback device.

The hard thing is for me to get enough protein. Still working that out.

 

[danielbb]

If anything this is a way to implement Dr. Peat’s stress on the importance of the Randle cycle.

In that video he says that free fatty acids inhibit sugar metabolism very very quickly. 15 minutes. It makes sense to me, that this could be piece of the puzzle and is completely in line with what I’ve read and listened to from Dr. Peat himself.

Yes, Dr. Peat says you should never eat protein without carbs. That could be a no-no if you have a fatty meal. I just ate some beef sausage, an egg and some cheese. I’m not about to eat carbs. I suppose I will trigger a cortisol response in an hour or two, but maybe the fat in the food will power my body enough to avoid that.

If I get a stress reaction my temperatures will plummet so I can tell.

It’s just an experiment at this point. I’ve been on it about 3 days and find that it seems workable. As @danielbb explained, the scale makes a handy feedback device.

The hard thing is for me to get enough protein. Still working that out.

Thanks for posting that as it supplies more context about what you are doing. I believe Ray is right when he says to consume some carbohydrate with your protein and I don't know what he says about a pure fat meal, but I would argue to eat some carbohydrate with a purely fat meal as well. When I say I like bacon and eggs, for example, I do not overdose them and eat those only when the whim occurs to me. I would eat those with a cupful of strawberries, raspberries, watermelon, 1/2 cup blue berries, or a teaspoon of honey if I am out of that type of fruit. If I consume a whey-only protein shake mixed with gelatin and water (works great to get your protein if you are eating a high carb meal), since there is no fat involved, I eat a liberal amount of carbohydrate within reason. A sample breakfast without fat for me, would be oatmeal often loaded with brown sugar and honey, along with orange juice, and fruit. I use the protein shake to get the necessary protein without the respective fat for that respective high-carb meal. Some are against whey protein and/or gelatin but anecdotally they work well for me. What I like to eat does not matter. It only matters what you like.

For fat loss, there are no free lunches no matter what system you employ. I've had excellent fat loss results with a low-carb system, a low fat system, and now a system that merely tries not to mix the two at the same time (this appears sustainable for a lifetime with high satisfaction and without metabolic penalty). The best techniques I've found for fat loss are a) eating slowly to allow your hunger signals to catch up, b) avoiding mixing of carbs and fat at the same time while consuming 80-100 grams of protein per day which seems to be my sweet-spot, and c) only eating enough to sustain myself comfortably. I've found that when I eat clean (for almost two years now) that it seems I need to eat less accordingly. Two meals a day (breakfast/dinner) works great for me, but if I am hungry at lunch, I eat. Weekends, I tend to indulge calories a bit more and often find I am up 2 or 3 lbs on Monday. Monday's I like to skip breakfast and lunch to reset things and eat a reasonable dinner. By Tuesday, the effects from the weekend are gone. There are endless strategies that will work as long as you are accountable to the scale and think about what did the day before to produce those results on a given morning. I've found walking in the park to be the most-effective exercise for both mind and body. I enjoy lifting but within reason given my age. Killing myself at the gym and starving myself over long periods worked to lose weight but were poor strategies. They are unsustainable and lead to stress as everyone here is keenly aware.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Yes, Dr. Peat says you should never eat protein without carbs. That could be a no-no if you have a fatty meal. I just ate some beef sausage, an egg and some cheese. I’m not about to eat carbs. I suppose I will trigger a cortisol response in an hour or two, but maybe the fat in the food will power my body enough to avoid that.

Even in the video, Peat was talking about glycogen in the liver. And he also said have fruit about 15 minutes before a high protein meal. The issue, I believe, is more of having protein along with low blood sugar, since protein also stimulates insulin, and would induce a stress response. This is certainly an issue with a longer term low carb strategy. With adequate glycogen stores, maybe not a problem.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Thanks for posting that as it supplies more context about what you are doing. I believe Ray is right when he says to consume some carbohydrate with your protein and I don't know what he says about a pure fat meal, but I would argue to eat some carbohydrate with a purely fat meal as well. When I say I like bacon and eggs, for example, I do not overdose them and eat those only when the whim occurs to me. I would eat those with a cupful of strawberries, raspberries, watermelon, 1/2 cup blue berries, or a teaspoon of honey if I am out of that type of fruit. If I consume a whey-only protein shake mixed with gelatin and water (works great to get your protein if you are eating a high carb meal), since there is no fat involved, I eat a liberal amount of carbohydrate within reason. A sample breakfast without fat for me, would be oatmeal often loaded with brown sugar and honey, along with orange juice, and fruit. I use the protein shake to get the necessary protein without the respective fat for that respective high-carb meal. Some are against whey protein and/or gelatin but anecdotally they work well for me. What I like to eat does not matter. It only matters what you like.

For fat loss, there are no free lunches no matter what system you employ. I've had excellent fat loss results with a low-carb system, a low fat system, and now a system that merely tries not to mix the two at the same time (this appears sustainable for a lifetime with high satisfaction and without metabolic penalty). The best techniques I've found for fat loss are a) eating slowly to allow your hunger signals to catch up, b) avoiding mixing of carbs and fat at the same time while consuming 80-100 grams of protein per day which seems to be my sweet-spot, and c) only eating enough to sustain myself comfortably. I've found that when I eat clean (for almost two years now) that it seems I need to eat less accordingly. Two meals a day (breakfast/dinner) works great for me, but if I am hungry at lunch, I eat. Weekends, I tend to indulge calories a bit more and often find I am up 2 or 3 lbs on Monday. Monday's I like to skip breakfast and lunch to reset things and eat a reasonable dinner. By Tuesday, the effects from the weekend are gone. There are endless strategies that will work as long as you are accountable to the scale and think about what did the day before to produce those results on a given morning. I've found walking in the park to be the most-effective exercise for both mind and body. I enjoy lifting but within reason given my age. Killing myself at the gym and starving myself over long periods worked to lose weight but were poor strategies. They are unsustainable and lead to stress as everyone here is keenly aware.

Have you played with say a glass of grape juice with a fat meal. Sugar not starch?

 

[danielbb]

Love grape juice, love sugar, love clean starch sources like potatoes, rice, un-enriched flour, oatmeal, and so forth. I just looked up unsweetened grape juice and it said it was about 37 g of carbs/cup which is about the same as a 12 oz bottle of Mexican Coke which I also love. When I have the fancy that I want carbs such as all these listed here, I do not see the need for fat assuming I can get some protein from a low-fat source. Those are just my tastes however and I do not want anyone doing anything other than what their desire tells them.

That said, yes of course it is possible to mix some fat. I do not know how much for a given individual however. How about trying some combinations and seeing if you suddenly retain water given a reasonable caloric load and exercise on a given day? How about a cup of grape juice mixed with a known fat quantity say from nuts, cheese, or meat, for example, and see what the scale says the next day (assuming you did not change some other variable like stuffing yourself with food or beer all day long).

I had an excellent week last week as far as fat loss. I almost have none left to go. During the week, I remembered I had some chocolate chip morsels in the pantry. I said, "I'll just eat one handful" (about a tablespoon), which was about 6g of fat and about 8g of carbs. I am fully confident with a handful or two things would have been fine. I lost control after eating the one handful however. I had about 5 more handfuls for at least 30 g of fat and about 48 g carbs. That was the last thing I had to eat for the evening. I only ate modestly twice that day and if you added everything I had to eat that day, plus normal elimination/bathroom activity the next morning, plus exercise, at worst I should have been a net zero on the scale the next morning. I was up three pounds. No way did I eat three pounds of food the day before. Some may not at all be troubled by this type of water-retention. What I've found, when I get my body in what I call a confused metabolic state where it retains water, it takes several days (3-5) to lose the water and then to begin to hopefully mobilize fat stores again. I don't like the delay and something seems unhealthy about it. For the one millionth time, I am merely sharing something that has worked for me. I am not pushing anything on anyone. Let your own biofeedback tell you what is working based on what only you love to consume.

 

[aquaman]

Great questions @LiveWire.

I was drinking 8 glasses of milk a day to satisfy my protein requirements and could not for the life of me figure out why I was gaining weight on a low-caloric load. That led me to the discovery there must be something in the combination of elements beyond the health benefits of the individual elements alone. The Randle-Cycle explained this for me.

The other explanation could be that liquid, sugar-containing drinks (including milk) pass a threshold of how much sugar your body can metabolise in a short time, leading to excess sugar being stored as fat.

Any liquid calories from juice and milk reliably spikes my blood sugar —> body fat increase.

I really wish I’d never heard that orange juice and milk was the way to go with a “Peat diet”!

 

[danielbb]

The other explanation could be that liquid, sugar-containing drinks (including milk) pass a threshold of how much sugar your body can metabolise in a short time, leading to excess sugar being stored as fat.

Any liquid calories from juice and milk reliably spikes my blood sugar —> body fat increase.

I really wish I’d never heard that orange juice and milk was the way to go with a “Peat diet”!

Great thoughts and those things have crossed my mind as well. I've wondered if a high-fiber source of fat like from nuts, for example, has the same quality as milk fat when mixed with sugar such as lactose found in milk, for example. Same with carbs. Does something like say oatmeal which is high in carbs, have the same metabolic reaction as say something like pure sugar or honey mixed with fat?

I saw first-hand last week what a relatively small amount of chocolate had for me in my own context. I'll continue to eat chocolate but the best technique with respect to that and ice cream seems to be to leave it out of the house. I seem to have little control over these substances but I love them nonetheless.

 

[TeaRex14]

This experiment of yours suggests that you probably have ideal liver health. If you can eat one carb meal earlier in the day and store enough glycogen to account for a low carb meal in the evening that's good.

 

[danielbb]

This experiment of yours suggests that you probably have ideal liver health. If you can eat one carb meal earlier in the day and store enough glycogen to account for a low carb meal in the evening that's good.

Thank you and I think you are on to something there. I've mentioned earlier that both my Doctor, myself, and biomarkers like blood pressure suggest that my heart disease as not only stopped from progressing like it once was but now has in fact gone in the other direction and reversed itself. Some tests of this idea are that I can walk for miles up and down big hills with what seems like unlimited stamina. My energy output seems to be like it once was in my youth. After my body began to heal, mostly by switching to whole-food sources, that I prepare myself without added toxins, along with moderate exercise and reasonable time (e.g., a year or so), that the thought occurred to me - "What exactly is alcohol doing for me?" Without telling anyone, I just decided to see what happened without it for a time. After about six weeks, I noticed something profound. I noticed that I had even a better time in life (e.g., even at parties and social occasions) and I felt even better without it. I began feeling so well, that I gave it up completely. I've not had a drink since November 17th, 2017 and don't miss it one bit. I am not suggesting anything for anyone else only sharing the benefits I've received. I do believe my liver health has improved due to clean-eating and getting away from alcohol. With respect to my personal tastes, I like low carb in the morning for breakfast (not no carb) and like high carbs at night (usually no fat but with a protein shake). Carbs at night seems to greatly facilitate sleep quality and hormonal output the next day for me. If the whim occurs to me, some days I just high carb all day long. Some days are low carb days but carbs are involved at every meal one way or the other. All of these fat and carb discussions obviously assume a certain amount of protein a day.

 

[Ron J]

Please do

I stumbled upon many of the issues while reading threads over a few years; it would be time consuming to find them all, but these threads have some good info:
Estrogen In Milk
Drinking Skim Milk Can Contribute To Having Higher-than-desirable Estrogen Levels
Pregnant Cows = High Estrogen Dairy Fat?
Fixing Milk
DAIRY FREE
You can search for opioid effects and folate antibodies mentioned by Travis.

 

[somuch4food]

@danielbb Do you eat organic? I'm just wondering since you often mention free of toxins.

 

[ecstatichamster]

How overweight were you to start with @danielbb

 

[danielbb]

@danielbb Do you eat organic? I'm just wondering since you often mention free of toxins.

Great question. Love to hear your feelings on the subject. Organic is not my master. It feels like marketing-hype to me designed to separate us from our money. I do not notice any difference between organic fruits and vegetables versus regular. Realize there could be long-term damage going on but I don't think so. I hate to have minutiae like that controlling my life. Just like I do not quibble about PUFA in meat but I do believe it is a bigger problem with poultry products because almost all of it is fed a strict soy diet it seems these days. I try and minimize PUFA, iron , and soy from being added directly to my food. Beyond that, I want to live an enjoyable, stress-free life and not be controlled by things. If some organic product is a reasonable alternative, no problem switching to that.

 

[danielbb]

How overweight were you to start with @danielbb

I went something like this. September 23, 2017 was embarrassingly at 260. That's when my mind changed and everything else changed after that.

It was easy to lose weight at first. I was going to the gym a lot, training hard, and fasting a lot. I did notice I was getting headaches all the time at first and now I believe that was due to releasing massive amount of toxins into my bloodstream from my fat stores. By January 2018, I was down to 195 and the headaches started to subside. Then it became exceedingly difficult to shed anymore body fat no matter how hard I trained or how clean my diet was. I managed to get it down to 180 by late last summer and then started experimenting with many of the concepts advocated here like getting the majority of your protein from milk. Please note I am not demonizing milk in this thread but getting almost all my protein from milk caused me to go back to 205 early last fall and I was startled by that. That led me to discover what we are talking about now and my body fat started to come off again. Only this time I no longer had to kill myself in the gym nor go on massive caloric deficits to achieve results. I mentioned above however, I am patient when eating and usually try to eat just enough to sustain myself everyday while also remaining comfortable. I am now about 160 and very low body fat. I lost a person and nobody even recognizes me anymore.