I'm Trying Separate Meals - Carbs Or Fat Not Both

[danielbb]

I saw it and it seems tasty, but I'm too busy atm to try it. I would have to adapt it as my son has an egg allergy.

Fantastic, thank you! My pastor always said to never let anyone grind your meat, always do it yourself. Wise man. Gonna take that step now.

I am thrilled to hear there is at least one other spiritual person posting here as I've seen some derogatory comments posted in the past. I do not judge people for their beliefs. that said, spiritual healing is probably the most powerful form there is in my humble opinion. I believe the mind makes the body sick and not the other way around. I believe healing starts in the mind and the body merely follows. My healing started with a simple thought that came to me one day (from a spiritual place) when I woke up. The thought was "I am sick of being sick." After saying those words, healing begin almost immediately and occurred within a reasonable amount of time. Started to slowly walk and slowly get myself back into shape one step at a time. Gradually, one step became two steps and that led to three and so forth. I reasoned that I had made myself sick by poor eating habits and lack of exercise. My doctors all said my heart disease was due to poor genetics on my mothers-side. Poppycock. I knew in my heart I had made myself sick and it was no more complicated than that. Miraculously, from that one simple thought, it has all been reversed. I have been healed and want to see others equally healed.

 

[LUH 3417]

I am thrilled to hear there is at least one other spiritual person posting here as I've seen some derogatory comments posted in the past. I do not judge people for their beliefs. that said, spiritual healing is probably the most powerful form there is in my humble opinion. I believe the mind makes the body sick and not the other way around. I believe healing starts in the mind and the body merely follows. My healing started with a simple thought that came to me one day (from a spiritual place) when I woke up. The thought was "I am sick of being sick." After saying those words, healing begin almost immediately and occurred within a reasonable amount of time. Started to slowly walk and slowly get myself back into shape one step at a time. Gradually, one step became two steps and that led to three and so forth. I reasoned that I had made myself sick by poor eating habits and lack of exercise. My doctors all said my heart disease was due to poor genetics on my mothers-side. Poppycock. I knew in my heart I had made myself sick and it was no more complicated than that. Miraculously, from that one simple thought, it has all been reversed. I have been healed and want to see others equally healed.

While I appreciate the sentiment I disagree the body and mind are two separate entities

 

[ecstatichamster]

I am thrilled to hear there is at least one other spiritual person posting here as I've seen some derogatory comments posted in the past. I do not judge people for their beliefs. that said, spiritual healing is probably the most powerful form there is in my humble opinion. I believe the mind makes the body sick and not the other way around. I believe healing starts in the mind and the body merely follows. My healing started with a simple thought that came to me one day (from a spiritual place) when I woke up. The thought was "I am sick of being sick." After saying those words, healing begin almost immediately and occurred within a reasonable amount of time. Started to slowly walk and slowly get myself back into shape one step at a time. Gradually, one step became two steps and that led to three and so forth. I reasoned that I had made myself sick by poor eating habits and lack of exercise. My doctors all said my heart disease was due to poor genetics on my mothers-side. Poppycock. I knew in my heart I had made myself sick and it was no more complicated than that. Miraculously, from that one simple thought, it has all been reversed. I have been healed and want to see others equally healed.

weird how they want you to feel helpless in the face of Uber Genetics. They believe this among other lies very fervently and it is incredibly harmful and kills millions of people a year. Then they go after some hapless supplement guy.

 

[Fractality]

What's the cutoff though in terms of the macro ratios in one meal? For instance, I do and many others do well on non-homogenized full fat goat milk which is basically a 33/33/33 macro split meal.

 

[somuch4food]

What's the cutoff though in terms of the macro ratios in one meal? For instance, I do and many others do well on non-homogenized full fat goat milk which is basically a 33/33/33 macro split meal.

@danielbb mentioned it being personal. You would have to play around with ratios to find your sweet spot.

Today I paid attention not to mix too much fat and carbs and was able to go longer between meals. I think the benefit of this approach comes from a more stable blood sugar, but that's just speculation on my part.

I think if digestion is optimal, ratios don't matter much. I've had great responses from carbs, fat and protein heavy meals, but I also have bad responses and separating the macros might solve issues I've had with some foods.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Isn’t everyone spiritual but they don’t always know it?

Anyhoo.

Yesterday I ate carbs all day. In the evening I ate a big **** steak and some cheesy cauliflower, and had some plain strawberries for dessert. I didn’t feel loaded down like I used to when I would have eaten mashed potatoes etc. I drank mineral water, not Coke as usual. I had coffee with dessert to try to inhibit some of the iron.

I had probably had 25g of collagen yesterday and the steak. I find it more difficult to get protein this way, as I am not eating cheese much. But I will figure it out. I’m not a fan of protein powder except for collagen/gelatin.

Temperatures stayed high and my energy levels were good. Slept well. This morning I ate some home made bread with jam, had some OJ and coffee and collagen. I also took about 1000mg of calcium maleate. No problems so far.

I’m supplementing with cordyceps, and limonene. Once a day taking an “Ozonated magnesium” which supplies oxygen through gut transit. All to kill of archea.

Yes, last night I started bread so it soaked a good long time, with small amount of yeast, and baked it. I love bread and I’ll see what happens.

Bowel movement this morning was excellent Bristol-scale wise.

So in sum:

1. Very fatty huge protein meal of ribeye steak, no issues.
2. No issues with digestion.
3. Temperatures staying high. 99.1F. Now!!

I think that high fat meals bring temperatures down. High carb keeps them high. I still take T3 but using temperatures as a guide (also take desiccated thyroid).

Something tells me that skin issues I’ve had (cracked heels for 15 years for instance) may get better. I think this is going to finally get my liver all nice and clean but all that’s speculative.

 

[somuch4food]

I had probably had 25g of collagen yesterday and the steak. I find it more difficult to get protein this way, as I am not eating cheese much. But I will figure it out. I’m not a fan of protein powder except for collagen/gelatin.

I'm thinking it would be easier protein wise this way since I can eat more meat/cheese when not mixing with carbs.

I would always feel stuffed when eating carbs with meat except with chicken breasts which are really lean.

I'm also thinking that I could get away with less proteins if they are better digested.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I'm thinking it would be easier protein wise this way since I can eat more meat/cheese when not mixing with carbs.

I would always feel stuffed when eating carbs with meat except with chicken breasts which are really lean.

I'm also thinking that I could get away with less proteins if they are better digested.

Those are interesting thoughts.

I am finding it easier to go with high carb and zero fat. So fewer occasions during the day to load up on protein. But that depends upon context.

I do like the chicken breasts idea. I could also get some meat that is totally lean grass fed and grind it myself. I think I will do that when I get back to my other home.

I’m traveling in a few weeks and I think this will be continually very useful for me to eat this way.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I still think whole milk is not necessarily an optimal food, but that's just me.

There really isn't any such thing as an "optimal food," but if there was, it would probably be milk. It's the only food that you could use exclusively for years on end, and not only survive, but thrive. You are speaking in a context of weight loss, and for that, whole milk probably isn't the best choice.

 

[Ron J]

There really isn't any such thing as an "optimal food," but if there was, it would probably be milk. It's the only food that you could use exclusively for years on end, and not only survive, but thrive. You are speaking in a context of weight loss, and for that, whole milk probably isn't the best choice.

What do you think of the recent negatives from milk? I don't know them all by memory, but hopefully you've read some of them. It was mentioned by Travis, among others. I'll see what I can find and add them later.

 

[tankasnowgod]

While I appreciate the sentiment I disagree the body and mind are two separate entities

I'd like to see either one function without the other.

 

[Tenacity]

This whole theory about keeping the energy macros separate really doesn't make sense when you consider milk as a food.

 

[LiveWire]

What do you think of the recent negatives from milk? I don't know them all by memory, but hopefully you've read some of them. It was mentioned by Travis, among others. I'll see what I can find and add them later.

Please do

 

[tankasnowgod]

This whole theory about keeping the energy macros separate really doesn't make sense when you consider milk as a food.

I don't see that at all. This theory seems to suggest this is good for weight loss. Milk, as a food, is intended for rapidly growing babies, who are gaining weight, and rapidly so. Humans generally are the only adult animal that consume milk as a food, and even then, we have figured out ways to lower the carb content (such as making cheese, cottage cheese, or kefir), isolate the fat entirely (like cream or butter), or lower the fat content (skim milk).

 

[tankasnowgod]

This is too tempting for me not to post. Let me start by saying I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.

I came to know Ray Peat because I discovered by accident that sugar was good for me. He is one of the few people out there who does not demonize sugar. That said, sugar plus fat (at the same sitting) is a bad idea and I learned this the hard way. I believe Ray is right about the toxic substances in our food supply - namely 1) PUFA, 2) Iron, and 3) Soy. Those are easily worked around. When it comes to dieting and shedding body fat, I believe some of Ray's ideas do not make sense. After coming here and listening to his videos, he shared the observation that those in Eastern-bloc countries were obese because they were eating high starch diets in his opinion and in those places like Finland were lean because of a milk-based diet. I am paraphrasing that but others here have heard him say the same thing. I am willing to try anything to optimize health and get lean so I went hard-core with Ray's ideas like getting most of my protein from milk and lots of carbohydrates from things like orange juice. There are links here that post the so-called Peat diet and I was following that to a tee with no mistakes. Counting my calories and working out everyday. Started gaining weight and could not for the life of me figure what was going on given a caloric load that was often below 1600 calories per day. Gained about 20 lbs in about 4-6 weeks time and switched to 1% milk but that still did not stabilize things for me. Then a thought occurred to me. Is it possible that each of the individual elements of some food source you consume could be healthy in and of themselves yet the combination be a problem? Could the combination itself be inflammatory even though the individual elements are healthy?

This thought caused me to reconsider the Randle-Cycle and when I thought about that, it made perfect sense what was going on. When you consume fat, it shuts off the ability to burn carbs. This was discovered in 1963 and to my knowledge has never been disproven. Its been re-studied and the science is still valid. So I got the idea, what would happen if I merely separated the time between when I consumed fat and sugar (any high carbohydrate source). So I started experimenting. I like to load carbs at night for sleep quality and hormonal reasons. So, I decided to go low carb for breakfast such as bacon and eggs. I usually skip lunch. A high fat meal at breakfast like that usually supplies enough energy to get me to my carb-only meals at night. When I put this system in place, the weight came off just as fast if not faster than when I put it on. It occurred to me that the mixture of fat and carbs is inflammatory and the weight gain is mostly water-weight. Some don't see the problem with water-weight but I believe it is unhealthy because if you are burning energy properly there should be no gain from one day to the next. Here is some stuff I posted elsewhere about recent Randle-cycle studies:

The Randle cycle revisited: a new head for an old hat

Some here don't believe in the Randle-Cycle effects but there was another scientific approach that got to the same issues. Doctor Kessler wrote a book about the mixture of sugar and fat and salt in the American food supply. They used brain scans to prove the effects on certain parts of the brain and also did hormonal studies. They found that these mixtures are designed to shut off your hunger signals and light up your reward signals in the brain. My only issue with Dr. Kessler's work is he tends to demonize sugar. I am suggesting that our bodies can perfectly use either fat or sugar for energy. Anecdotally, sugar (in all its forms including starch) has been wonderful for me. Fat works great by itself. The combination is lethal in my opinion. Here is a link to Dr. Kessler's work (5.99 on Kindle) for those who may be skeptical of the Randle-Cycle:
https://www.amazon.com/End-Overeating-Insatiable-American-Appetite-ebook/dp/B0025VKJNA/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_2?crid=1NV8AR5PG4O67&keywords=the+end+of+overeating+by+david+kessler&qid=1556196546&s=gateway&sprefix=david+kessler,aps,143&sr=8-2-fkmrnull

Practical ways to implement this system:

Go low-carb/high fat one day, and go high carb/low fat the nest day.
I like low carb at one meal and being conservative, I try and separate fat and carbs by 12 hours but frankly think that is too conservative. My wife has been getting good results by merely not mixing carbs and fat at the same meal. I've also alternated meals without penalty.

I believe there are fat/carb mixing thresholds. Using an Atkins-style low carb plan of about 30 carbs per day as a model that does work to lose body fat, and assuming 3 meals per day, that conservatively allows about 10 carbs at each meal containing fat. That number has never failed me. Low carb vegetables can be mixed with any fat meal without penalty or thinking. All the low carb systems like Atkins, Paleo, keto, and so forth allow vegetables. Using 10 as a guide, you could consume 1 cup of strawberries, 1 cup watermelon, 1 cup raspberries, or 1/2 cup blueberries and stay below that threshold. Look, if you are 25 years old and ripped, your threshold is probably higher than this. Of course, everyone may have different mixing thresholds. I believe a small amount of carbs like low carb fruit or vegetables should be consumed with each high fat meal. Of course, you can also mix your fat with other fat sources like meat and cheese, meat and nuts, nuts and cheese, etc.

If you are consuming a high carb meal like pasta, then I think any added fat since it provides energy at almost twice the value of carbs, a conservative fat threshold for a high carb meal might be 4/5 grams or so of fat. Everyone can experiment and easily find out what are reasonable mixing thresholds (e.g., after a given load of fat and carbs was there any water weight on the scale overnight).

Lets look at Italian food examples, since I love it and it provides different approaches to consider:

If you boil your meat in the sauce, for example, most of the grease boils to the top and is spooned off so I would consider this type of meat low fat. Then, we have the carbs in the pasta. No problem. Here's where things start to go wrong for people. Most load their pasta with cheese. I am ok with skipping the cheese. There are no-fat cheeses out there that can be used that are a very reasonable substitute for high-fat cheeses. Also, most load their bread with butter. I am ok skipping the bread but if you must eat bread with it, you can skip the butter and season the bread with garlic salt and herbs as an example. Another strategy is to dramatically reduce the carb content of the meal. This can be done by using spiralized zucchini which is an excellent pasta substitute. Here with a much lower carb content, you may be able to increase your fat threshold for a given meal.

How about pizza? Who does not love that?

A couple of strategies:
There are all types of youtube recipes using zucchini or cauliflower-based crusts. These dramatically lower the carbs in pizza and thus would allow more fat as toppings. These are ok but I find them unsatisfying.

I like regular pizza crust made from flour. I make this, add the sauce, and use no-fat mozzarella cheese and Kraft is the only one I've found who makes this. Entirely satisfying and about 90% as good as regular cheese. My wife and I like green pepper and mushrooms as toppings on our pizza. No fat whatsoever. No performance penalties on the scale the next day.

It actually is quite easy to avoid mixing. No silly low-carb rules or low fat rules to follow. Just decide what type of meal you feel like eating and plan accordingly. All taste buds can be accommodated. Only you know what you like to eat.

You have some really great posts on this idea, and you've convinced me to give it a shot for a couple weeks. I really like the idea that this can be laid over pretty much any eating plan. No having to go without ribeyes or potatoes. Just, don't eat them same meal. But you can still eat both the same day.

Also of note, as some people have brought up milk, even sticking with the super conservative 10 carbs in the high fat meal, a cup of milk could be had at the same time as the high fat meal, and it would only contribute 8 grams of carbs itself.

 

[Cirion]

There really isn't any such thing as an "optimal food," but if there was, it would probably be milk. It's the only food that you could use exclusively for years on end, and not only survive, but thrive. You are speaking in a context of weight loss, and for that, whole milk probably isn't the best choice.

Meh, I used to think that too when I joined these forums and got brainwashed by RP's opinions on milk.

Milk only works if you have a good metabolism, otherwise, not so much. Even skim milk I can maybe tolerate in very limited quantities. Tryptophan is a big problem.

So, that's why I don't consider it an optimal food. The only foods I consider optimal are ones that are useful while sick.

So I tried a fatty breakfast today (eggs and bacon) and today I have felt off/bad/low temps the whole day. I'm done with dietary fat for now. It seems when you're really sick you can't handle fats period, even when separated from other foods.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Meh, I used to think that too when I joined these forums and got brainwashed by RP's opinions on milk.

Milk only works if you have a good metabolism, otherwise, not so much. Even skim milk I can maybe tolerate in very limited quantities. Tryptophan is a big problem.

So, that's why I don't consider it an optimal food. The only foods I consider optimal are ones that are useful while sick.

So I tried a fatty breakfast today (eggs and bacon) and today I have felt off/bad/low temps the whole day. I'm done with dietary fat for now. It seems when you're really sick you can't handle fats period, even when separated from other foods.

Eggs and bacon are pretty rich in PUFA, which would explain the drop in temperature that you felt. Try a high fat meal with safe fats instead( meat with coconut oil/cocoa butter/tallow). Maybe it will make a difference.

 

[LiveWire]

On the food combining charts mixing beef/meat with starches is always a no no.

Dr. Morse said meat and starch is probably the worst food combination that can be made, I totally agree with him on this. He said everything goes wrong with that combination.

Could you elaborate please? As @aquaman has said, meat+potatoes, and in the past decades meat+rice has been the absolute traditional form of a main meal in most European countries.

I always smiled at how these traditional meals are in line with what Peat says - protein always with carbs. That the carb part would be starch is a given, as nobody would consume meat with honey or orange juice as a side dish.

So what is it that goes wrong with such combination?

 

[nigma]

This whole theory about keeping the energy macros separate really doesn't make sense when you consider milk as a food.

Perhaps the sugars in milk are not metabolised in the same way as other sugars. It is curious that milk has lactose rather than glucose and fructose as in most fruit/natural carb sources. Lactose is a dissacharide of glucose and galactose, perhaps galactose signals for fat to be metabolised another way? Or perhaps milk is fattening by design for the purpose of supplying the high metabolism of infants with enough calories of both fuel sources?

I think this idea of separating fat and carb calories is very interesting, most fruits or vegetables I can think of are either majorly carb calories or fat calories. Eating one in a 'mono' meal would be follow this threads advice by default.

 

[danielbb]

You have some really great posts on this idea, and you've convinced me to give it a shot for a couple weeks. I really like the idea that this can be laid over pretty much any eating plan. No having to go without ribeyes or potatoes. Just, don't eat them same meal. But you can still eat both the same day.

Also of note, as some people have brought up milk, even sticking with the super conservative 10 carbs in the high fat meal, a cup of milk could be had at the same time as the high fat meal, and it would only contribute 8 grams of carbs itself.

Thank you very kindly @tankasnowgod.

1) Please remember I said, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am telling the truth when I say I have leaned out (very low body fat) at 58 years old. Please let me reiterate to some of the skeptical comments in this thread, if you are in your 20's or 30's or other age and are already lean, none of my comments seem to make sense. I did not have substantial weight issues until the age of about 35 and it took years of poor-eating before things started to snowball on me when things like obesity, heart disease, and other symptoms showed up.

2) @tankasnowgod - you fully understand the point I was trying to make about milk. The individual components of milk are fine. When I was trying to satisfy all/most of my protein requirements from milk, that is when I started gaining weight and rapidly. One cup is entirely reasonable.

3) I tried dry milk today (Mix & Drink). Easy to mix. Very Economical. Virtually unlimited shelf-life. I was satisfied by the taste. 8g protein per cup. No fat. I could drink as much of this as I like. My only issue with this product is like many milk products sold in the US, it is enriched with Vitamin D3 and Vitamin A. I'd prefer just the basic substance without the added ingredients. Likewise, if the whim occurs to me to drink a glass of milk, I do so without worry.