I'm Trying Separate Meals - Carbs Or Fat Not Both

[dfspcc20]

Trying to wrap my mind around the Randle Cycle and how it applies in the context of the whole organism. The glib interpretation is usually something like "you can't burn fat and glucose at the same time." But considering that: the heart is almost always burning fat, the muscles are burning fat most of the time (except during intense exertion), the brain preferentially burns glucose. Aren't we always burning both fat and carbs to some extent all the time?

Each Organ Has a Unique Metabolic Profile - Biochemistry - NCBI Bookshelf

 

[Cirion]

It isn't necessarily so much that you can't burn fat and glucose at the same time, it's that you shouldn't eat fat and glucose at the same time.

This may sound like the same thing, and for 2 years after learning about the RC I thought they were the same thing, but my experience, and the experience of others in this thread, prove otherwise.

So maybe the better answer then is

You cannot DIGEST fat and carbs at the same time but you can USE fat and carbs at the same time.

This is purely from observation. Now, I'll be the wrong person to ask WHY that is, I just know that's how it is... from experience.

But, we have a store of both fats and carbs... So by the time you've finished digesting carbs and switched to eating fats, you have around 400 gram of glucose in your body that your body can DRAW from and USE (not DIGEST) while you are DIGESTING the fats...

... That is my best working theory at the moment anyway which is certainly open to revision as I learn more of why.

 

[michael94]

I remember you wrote you dont tolerate calcium well, and thats unfortunate. Ive found calcium to surrogate nicely for saturated fat for slowing digestion on a low-fat diet

Which form jamies? ( not to derail thread from fat and carbs )

 

[YourUniverse]

Which form jamies? ( not to derail thread from fat and carbs )

Milk, personally. It should be any tolerable form though

 

[ecstatichamster]

Depends how unhealthy you are. The threshold for fat intolerance can literally be anywhere from a couple grams of fat to 20 grams of fat in a meal. For me, just a handful of grams <5 of fat and I feel the effects of Randle (I hate that Randle guy!!! LOL)

So, for me, your meal would have been too fatty. Whether it is for you, who knows.

What are the effects?

 

[ecstatichamster]

I remember you wrote you dont tolerate calcium well, and thats unfortunate. Ive found calcium to surrogate nicely for saturated fat for slowing digestion on a low-fat diet

My theory is that I caused an overgrowth of something in my gut, probably my stomach and duodenum. And I am working on that so I think it’s going to get better pretty soon. I started calcium today and so far so good.

 

[Cirion]

What are the effects?

Basically inflammation and serotonin/estrogen increase, bloating, and all the symptoms that go with that - fatigue, brain fog, lack of motivation etcetera...

I've finally determined that the cause of my extreme water weight is not anything at all to do with too little water intake, too much, too little or too salt, or whatever. It's because I hurt myself repeatedly from mixing fats and carbs. I made sure to mix less fats with carbs yesterday and today I lost 2 lb water weight. There is a direct correlation here. What's more, my body temp this morning was 0.3F higher which shouldn't come as a shock either given that estrogen lowers the metabolism.

Vegans say that dietary fat and fatty dairy etc causes increases in estrogen. I now realize the mechanism for that is indirect - through the randle cycle - and not so much because of the fat itself.

 

[danielbb]

@ecstatichamster - thank you.

I believe some of Ray's biases against starch go back somewhat to his observation on obesity in some places in Europe. I know he has researched the topic as well. I completely eliminated starch such as bread and pasta for a time and assumed it was the gluten and/or starch that was causing me problems like runny nose and depression. When I gave those things up, somehow those side-effects left me. Someone here mentioned that maybe what I was reacting to was some of the things like iron in flour rather than starch or gluten. I started experimenting with non-enriched flour and have not had any side-effects since then. I think Ray is right about some things but I want to eat those things I like without gaining weight or some other side-effect. For me, starch (as long as it is not enriched) has not caused any noticeable side-effects. I simply love pasta and bread products like pizza too much to give them up for some of Ray's biases of a given substance. I test each thing I eat. If I observe a negative side-effect, I find something else or a substitute that simulates what I like. I mentioned spiralized zucchini above as a substitute for pasta. I works great but I prefer normal wheat-based pasta the most. If starch were still causing me problems, I'd have no problem giving it up. Ray is biased against other things like tomatoes, pineapples, bananas, and apples. These are miracle drugs for me. I've listened to what Ray has said about these things but it makes no sense based on my own anecdotal experience. I don't believe anyone is smart enough to prescribe a universal diet that works the same for all people. I think everyone should eat what they like to eat sans PUFA and some other toxins mentioned by Ray but decide for themselves what works and what does not. The best tip I know to restore health is basically give up processed food and select from whole food sources if at all possible. That one tip will basically take care of almost all health-related problems. The stuff I posted about mixing sugar and fat, I believe is a problem that most do not consider because just about everything in this country is mixed. Many blame sugar. Another school blames fat. I believe both schools are right to an extent. I like the middle-ground - eat everything I want (assuming no side-effects) and just plan meals so the two substances are not mixed (e.g., beyond some threshold per a given meal).

 

[Jing]

Wouldn't the randle cycle mean milk is a poor food choice?

 

[michael94]

Wouldn't the randle cycle mean milk is a poor food choice?

Galactose is a very unique sugar

 

[Ron J]

Trying to wrap my mind around the Randle Cycle and how it applies in the context of the whole organism. The glib interpretation is usually something like "you can't burn fat and glucose at the same time." But considering that: the heart is almost always burning fat, the muscles are burning fat most of the time (except during intense exertion), the brain preferentially burns glucose. Aren't we always burning both fat and carbs to some extent all the time?

Each Organ Has a Unique Metabolic Profile - Biochemistry - NCBI Bookshelf

Yes, I think a healthy(active) lifestyle with some muscle mass would make some fat consumption negligible. The quantity I'm referring to is only 30g or so for fat soluble vitamin absorption, in just one meal. I think problems occur when you do moderate to high fat with high carbs, along a sedentary lifestyle and high body fat.

 

[Cirion]

Wouldn't the randle cycle mean milk is a poor food choice?

Whole milk or anything more than like 1% is a poor food choice.

Skim milk is fine. But probably best to skim your own milk to avoid the fortification. And for the record Ray Peat does not drink anything more than 1% milk. He doesn't say don't drink whole milk but he does say it can be fattening.

 

[YourUniverse]

Whole milk or anything more than like 1% is a poor food choice.

For you

 

[ecstatichamster]

@ecstatichamster - thank you.

I believe some of Ray's biases against starch go back somewhat to his observation on obesity in some places in Europe. I know he has researched the topic as well. I completely eliminated starch such as bread and pasta for a time and assumed it was the gluten and/or starch that was causing me problems like runny nose and depression. When I gave those things up, somehow those side-effects left me. Someone here mentioned that maybe what I was reacting to was some of the things like iron in flour rather than starch or gluten. I started experimenting with non-enriched flour and have not had any side-effects since then. I think Ray is right about some things but I want to eat those things I like without gaining weight or some other side-effect. For me, starch (as long as it is not enriched) has not caused any noticeable side-effects. I simply love pasta and bread products like pizza too much to give them up for some of Ray's biases of a given substance. I test each thing I eat. If I observe a negative side-effect, I find something else or a substitute that simulates what I like. I mentioned spiralized zucchini above as a substitute for pasta. I works great but I prefer normal wheat-based pasta the most. If starch were still causing me problems, I'd have no problem giving it up. Ray is biased against other things like tomatoes, pineapples, bananas, and apples. These are miracle drugs for me. I've listened to what Ray has said about these things but it makes no sense based on my own anecdotal experience. I don't believe anyone is smart enough to prescribe a universal diet that works the same for all people. I think everyone should eat what they like to eat sans PUFA and some other toxins mentioned by Ray but decide for themselves what works and what does not. The best tip I know to restore health is basically give up processed food and select from whole food sources if at all possible. That one tip will basically take care of almost all health-related problems. The stuff I posted about mixing sugar and fat, I believe is a problem that most do not consider because just about everything in this country is mixed. Many blame sugar. Another school blames fat. I believe both schools are right to an extent. I like the middle-ground - eat everything I want (assuming no side-effects) and just plan meals so the two substances are not mixed (e.g., beyond some threshold per a given meal).

makes sense. I listen to what Dr. Peat says in his interviews and he's never judgmental the way it maybe comes out here, or in some of his writings.

His interviews are very different and show that he is not trying to give anybody a certain prescription as a way to eat.

I think this may be very helpful for me. I haven't really run into problems with bread or starch either except if I have too much. I do think that gluten bothers me.

But only if I have too much. It is also possible that if I make my own bread as I have in the past and soak the flower for a day or two it may be just fine.

I'll continue this experiment.

 

[danielbb]

Wouldn't the randle cycle mean milk is a poor food choice?

In my post above, that is precisely what I said based off my own anecdotal experience. I used the Randle-Cycle arguments to explain why I observed those effects. I am sure there are people out there who do great with milk. All I can say is for me, substances like milk which mix sugar and fat cause me to retain water which I think is a bad idea. Cheese, since the carb content is lower than milk and is better classified as mostly fat does not seem to have problems for me as milk. Substances like chocolate or ice cream (I personally love them), the individual ingredients in them seem healthy. The mixture cause me problems as far as weight gain so with respect to them, I try and use portion control but I've lost that battle many times.

 

[Cirion]

For you

I don't believe the RC discriminates, this is one concept that is universal, but someone in better health can probably handle some mixing of fats/carbs together a little more than say myself. Either way, even if I was healthy and COULD drink whole milk, I still probably wouldn't, since I believe in optimal health not just winging it. Everyone is certainly free to do what they want though. Just trying to save people years of pain.

 

[ecstatichamster]

So far, I am finding my temperatures stay up higher this way.

My bowel transit time is faster too.

All good. And I haven't had heartburn in a few days.

 

[YourUniverse]

I don't believe the RC discriminates, this is one concept that is universal, but someone in better health can probably handle some mixing of fats/carbs together a little more than say myself. Either way, even if I was healthy and COULD drink whole milk, I still probably wouldn't, since I believe in optimal health not just winging it.

Plenty of extremely healthy, health-conscious people drink 2% or whole milk - the statement that they are a "poor food choice" written with universality is something that should be read with context.

The masai, whom Peat has written about many times, drank/drink gallons of raw milk daily to excellent health (for example)

 

[michael94]

I don't believe the RC discriminates, this is one concept that is universal, but someone in better health can probably handle some mixing of fats/carbs together a little more than say myself. Either way, even if I was healthy and COULD drink whole milk, I still probably wouldn't, since I believe in optimal health not just winging it. Everyone is certainly free to do what they want though. Just trying to save people years of pain.

Galactose Enhances Oxidative Metabolism and Reveals Mitochondrial Dysfunction in Human Primary Muscle Cells

But this is assuming that things are being digested properly, if say one is intolerant to a food like milk the endotoxin/ maldigested protein stress can easily overpower any expected results. Also lactose is a great bacterial cell culture if metabolism is sluggish

 

[Cirion]

Plenty of extremely healthy, health-conscious people drink 2% or whole milk - the statement that they are a "poor food choice" written with universality is something that should be read with context.

The masai, whom Peat has written about many times, drank/drink gallons of raw milk daily to excellent health daily (for example)

I would be very curious to see any one here that drinks a gallon of whole milk a day and is healthy. Just look at the Starting Strength crowd. Mark rippetoe tells his followers to do GOMAD (gallon of milk a day, whole) and look what that has done for them...

There are lots of folk here drinking a lot of SKIM milk but not whole. Hans, waremu are example of a couple possibly drinking as much of a gallon of SKIM milk a day.

A couple of cups of whole milk won't be the end of the world for someone otherwise healthy.

I'm very dubious about that claim of the masai. My answer to that is if true, I bet they live an otherwise very healthy life (outdoors all the time, sunlight, perfect circadian cycle)

Also, FRESH raw milk is VERY different from whole milk from stores or even raw milk bought from farmers that are probably a few days old.

The only people I know here drinking whole milk to any success are doing just that - fresh raw milk from their own farm. That is different at least to a degree, I admit.