Hair Loss, Abdominal Problems, Possible Fatty Liver

Strongbad

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Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
291
I'm going to back off Ray Peat diet a bit and starting over. It's just not working out for me. My hair has been shedding out like crazy since I started Ray Peat almost 3 months ago (although the hair that remains grow really long, somehow). Now I have frequent discomfort on my lower right abdomen area. Whenever I eat moderate amount, get slightly stressed out (even by playing Candy Crush game), or giving a little "push" while urinating gives me discomfort on the abdomen. I also have random adrenaline rush and adrenal fatigue (yes, I'm aware it's because of hypothyroidism) every now and then. My liver also feel sluggish handling all these calories that I've been consuming, 2500-3000+ daily.

I avoid PUFA, I've been hardcore on Peating diet. I consume fructose, milk, saturated fat food, lots of carrots and underground vegetables like onions, cucumber and ginger etc. I also gulp lots of sodium carbonate (baking soda) and salt to reduce prolactin. I take aspirins, niacinamide, vitamins and lots of the supplements that're covered in the forum. I've been all-out Peating since Day 1. 2500-3000+ calories per day.

And what do I get? Weak upper 95 F to mid 96F body temp. If I'm lucky, I'll hit mid 97F, but that's if I get extremely active the entire day and consume load tons of calories. I also gain lots of weight, bloated stomach, water retention problem, sluggish digestion. And yes, more hair shed...

Sometimes I think I should have stayed doing low carb diet. Sure, I'm a hypothyroid, my mood and energy and metabolism weren't great back then and my hair was already thinning. But at least it's thinning in slow fashion unlike now. And I never had abdominal and all those problems before.

I'm even starting to think that sugar is bad again. When Leonardo found out he had fatty liver, he has to reduce his sugar intake to help flush out the fat out of the liver (http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6193). Even haidut mentioned that high sugar + high protein cause ammonia, and high-protein is needed to help prevent and reverses fatty disease (http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5937)

I'm upset that Peat diets underestimate the importance of healthy liver to fully Peating without issues. Imagine thyroid as V12 (car) engine, and liver as gas tank. No matter how powerful V12 engine is, it can't function well if the gas tank is clogged and sluggish to deliver the fuel into the engine.

At the very least, there should be a huge warning to newcomers that it's important to check their liver function and get that fixed first before starting Peating. Peating only make one's health worse with sluggish/fatty liver. I mean, what if someone starts suing people because he takes Peat's advise verbatim but ends up with stuff like diabetes type 2 or busted kidneys because he didn't get his liver fixed first?

Haidut comment sums it all up well (http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5525#p65295):

haidut said:
So, assuming one keeps a steady dietary supply of sucrose (or some other type of sugar), wouldn't the constant presence of glucose in the blood stream keep insulin chronically elevated too? I have read various, and often contradictory, statements from Peat about the whole blood sugar and insulin thing. Often, he says that it is important to always keep blood glucose up to keep cortisol at bay and metabolism high. Of course, this means insulin would be elevated chronically too. On insulin, Ray sometimes says it is a good hormone responsible for anabolism and keeping tumor growth under control. At other times he has said that elevated insulin is not a good thing. So, I am bit confused about the overall dietary guidelines. Should we try to keep blood sugar elevated all the time but at a certain stable (and reasonable) level, which would imply higher (but stable insulin), or should we do pulse feeds which would temporarily bring insulin up to shuttle the glucose to the muscles and then insulin goes down and the body runs on glycogen from the liver?
I suspect a number of people on the forum struggle with this issue as evidenced by several posts of rapid weight gain, elevated blood glucose and insulin on blood tests and worried doctors making recommendations to cut down on sugar, blood pressure rising in people who did not have blood pressure issues before, etc. Some of these things could be beneficial, but there was a post by one person who said her blood pressure went from 120/80 to 150/90 after adopting the higher sugar diet and after some back and forth with her doctor she decided to quit the Peat diet. Then she reported her blood pressure normalizing after reducing sugar intake. Btw, it is well known in the bodybuilding community that cutting carbs works just like diuretics. I am not an advocate of this, but wouldn't people prone to edema and having thyroid problems get their water-retention problems exacerbated if they increase sugar/carbs intake? I guess that would happen at least initially and the theory is that as their metabolism normalizes they should be able to better utilize glucose and then lose all the excess water. So, the million dollar question is how long does one have to re-feed higher carbs diet (and suppress fatty acid oxidation through the Randle effect) until their insulin sensitivity is restored?
Finally, there have been a number of reports on Peatarian and occasionally on this forum of people experiencing proteinuria (protein in the urine) when increasing sugar intake above 200g daily. If you are eating 80g+ of protein then you probably strive to eat at least as many carbs. Peat has said that this proteinuria is due to people burning PUFA, which makes albumin leak in the urine and show up on the tests but as far as I can tell, these people were actually burning fat before adopting the higher sugar diet and only experienced proteinuria after increasing sugar intake. Of course, they could have had this issue all along and only realized it after switching and measuring their urine but there are several reports of this so I doubt it's a random thing. Somebody also posted a study on thousands of university employees and those who consumes the most sugary drinks reported the highest incidence of proteinuria.
It would be nice if we can get some guidelines on this. Personally, I use caffeine to increase the utilization of sugar and don't really have issues with it, but in theory there should be a way to handle sugar from diet without relying on sugar burning aids like caffeine and/or thyroid. Thyroid does not seem to be a good option for me, and I have tried all kinds of supplementing schedules and dosages. As I have posted on other threads, my experience with sugar only improved after I took serious measures to "normalize" my liver function through caffeine and vitamin K2, BUT my liver enzymes were NORMAL according to the standard lab ranges. If the stats are true and over 80% of people over 30 have some degree of fatty liver, which is the real cause behind type II diabetes, then I think many people adopting the Peat diet will likely experience stress reduction through the lower cortisol, but may end up making their fatty liver worse, especially is supplementing niacinamide and aspirin. Such_Saturation and I posted about this in another thread.
So, my main point is that burning sugar is definitely preferable to burning fat based on both Peat's writings and all the studies I have seen about liver disease being caused by increased lipid peroxidation byproducts, and cirrhosis (in alcoholic rats) being easily and succesfully treated by feeding about 60g-70g of saturated fat like butter or coconut oil for a week, while the rats kept drinking alcohol at the same time! So, on the point of burning sugar I think the question is settled that it is preferable to burning fat.
However, the point is to actually BURN the sugar rather than simply feeding ourselves more of it. For people with sluggish livers, many of whom also take niacinamide and aspirin, this is likely to make the metabolism situation worse by fattening the liver even more, even though admittedly the fat synthesized will be saturated since it is made from sugar. But fatty liver will increase your estrogen no matter how saturated the fat is that you are synthesizing. So, fattening up the liver even more probably won't do much good for metabolism. Another suggestion from Peat would be to increase protein intake to at least 80g a day which should support liver function, lower estrogen and increase conversion of T4 into T3. However, that will likely also not work very well in people with sluggish and fatty livers since underperforming liver will convert a lot of that extra protein into ammonia. Even Peat is clear on this point in one of his articles where he says that "hyperammonemia can be caused by exhaustive exercise or hypothyroidism". This is also evidenced by a number of studies showing that people in their late 30s, 40s, and 50s experience chronic fatigue issues that are greatly helped by giving them ammonia-reducing agents like ornithine or sodium benzoate. And those people consume nowhere near the 80g of protein Peat recommends. So, if they are having ammonia issues imagine how would the people loading up on extra protein would feel.
Which brings us to the point that for many people over the age of 30, simply increasing sugar and/or protein will likely not solve the metabolic issues. Thus, the Peat diet, while the correct way to eat, may not be a solution to the issues of hypothyroidism, but rather a way to avoid the worse option of running on cortisol and adrenalin, which while energizing in the short run will ruin you in the longer run.
Considering the Barnes book "Hypoglycemia: It's not your brain, it's your liver", which I read, it seems that restoring optimal liver function is also a key to improving metabolism. Yes, thyroid function is important too, but I think Peat's recommendation on supplementing thyroid even in the presence of normal thyroid labs may cause issues for a number of people. Charlie, and at least 20 other people have posted on struggling with supplementing thyroid. If they take it, they develop teeth issues, skin issues, anxiety or some other unpleasant symptoms. If they don't take it, their digestion slows down to a crawl or they start getting hypothyroid symptoms like brain fog or muscle issues, etc.
So, if the stats are true and the evidence I have seen is legit, then eating according to the peat guidelines is a great strategy AFTER metabolism is fixed. But if 80% of people over 30 are having liver issues or some other problems with metabolism, then the diet will be certainly supportive, but likely not "curative". And for some people with particularly bad liver problems the situation may end up getting worse in a way due to even more fatty liver issues or higher ammonia levels. Just ask anybody over the age of 40 if they are having trouble maintaining (let alone building) muscle mass.
Then the question becomes, what will aid metabolic recovery, other than blindly supplementing thyroid even in the presence of normal thyroid labs? I guess the answer Peat will give is that one needs to wait at least 4 years and get rid of the PUFA before starting to see solid results. There is some solid evidence in favor of lower PUFA fixing metabolic issues. But I wonder if working on liver health or trying to build more muscle will also help while waiting out the PUFA detox period? Uncoupling agents are probably also key, but they should probably be other than aspirin since it may make fatty liver issues worse for many people if used in the doses needed for mitochondrial uncoupling. Finally, increasing CO2 production or intake somehow will also likely have a key role. Just throwing things out there that seem to be cardinal methods for improving metabolism.
Sorry about the long rant, I just felt like this deserves some attention since a number of threads pop on the forum asking the same questions and I have been thinking about this for some time. If someone knows about Peat's definitive opinion on this issue please share it. Maybe I missed it in his articles. IMHO, after reading pretty much all of his published stuff, reading people's testimonies/complaints, cross-referencing this with studies, and my own experience, I think a number of chicken/egg question still remain.
Anybody care to comment?

I'm going back to drawing board and starting over again. Obviously my liver is hurting right now, and it's my first goal to fix now.
 
Joined
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I can't disagree with you there, I get the same pain when I eat starches. Score 1 for potato fascists I guess. Have you heard that parathyroid hormone stimulates hair growth? I've been thinking that all that milk is sure to be suppressing that hormone.
 

Kasper

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Sep 11, 2013
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I would say that trying a different approach when you're current approach doesn't give you the pulse and body temps that are healthy is perfectly in line with peats idea.

Maybe if you begin to believe low pulse and low body temps are healthy, I would say you are off the peat way of thinking.

Anyway, I hope you succeed in turning your health around, keep focused on what you want, stay flexible in your approach, and maybe some day you can enlighten us with a new perspective
 

jyb

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Strongbad said:
I avoid PUFA, I've been hardcore on Peating diet. I consume fructose, milk, saturated fat food, lots of carrots and underground vegetables like onions, cucumber and ginger etc. I also gulp lots of sodium carbonate (baking soda) and salt to reduce prolactin. I take aspirins, niacinamide, vitamins and lots of the supplements that're covered in the forum. I've been all-out Peating since Day 1. 2500-3000+ calories per day.

You only started a few months ago and are already taking all those supplements... It's a bit crazy, seems like you just forced yourself all these foods and supplements without knowing which ones were helpful or harmful for you. Start over with food only, basic stuff like low pufa and some calcium. That should already give you a lot of the gains you could expect. More complex considerations and supplements... sometimes works, but many times are absolutely useless. Good food should *never* leave you with *any* of the problems you listed: adrenalin rush, hair shed, liver and mood problems...
 

SQu

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Jan 3, 2014
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I too had a bad patch early on which I attribute to going too fast with the changes, being a major stress in itself. I've also pondered that post by haidut and feel that it explains a lot in my case too. I see you can't drink coffee too - my tolerance has varied from 0 to current high of three cups a day. So while I understand and sympathize as a fellow struggler, I think you would throw the baby out with the bathwater to close the door on this. I think there is lots of value for you still. It's up to you of course but what I'd do and have in fact done a few times is firstly forget the guidelines for a bit and eat intuitively. Then reintroduce what sounds appealing ( and strangely enough it will again, sooner than you think) . go by what feels good and delicious as peat says. And digests well. Don't despair and best of luck whatever you do.
 

RPDiciple

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Joined
Feb 25, 2015
Messages
387
Strongbad said:
I'm going to back off Ray Peat diet a bit and starting over. It's just not working out for me. My hair has been shedding out like crazy since I started Ray Peat almost 3 months ago (although the hair that remains grow really long, somehow). Now I have frequent discomfort on my lower right abdomen area. Whenever I eat moderate amount, get slightly stressed out (even by playing Candy Crush game), or giving a little "push" while urinating gives me discomfort on the abdomen. I also have random adrenaline rush and adrenal fatigue (yes, I'm aware it's because of hypothyroidism) every now and then. My liver also feel sluggish handling all these calories that I've been consuming, 2500-3000+ daily.

I avoid PUFA, I've been hardcore on Peating diet. I consume fructose, milk, saturated fat food, lots of carrots and underground vegetables like onions, cucumber and ginger etc. I also gulp lots of sodium carbonate (baking soda) and salt to reduce prolactin. I take aspirins, niacinamide, vitamins and lots of the supplements that're covered in the forum. I've been all-out Peating since Day 1. 2500-3000+ calories per day.

And what do I get? Weak upper 95 F to mid 96F body temp. If I'm lucky, I'll hit mid 97F, but that's if I get extremely active the entire day and consume load tons of calories. I also gain lots of weight, bloated stomach, water retention problem, sluggish digestion. And yes, more hair shed...

Sometimes I think I should have stayed doing low carb diet. Sure, I'm a hypothyroid, my mood and energy and metabolism weren't great back then and my hair was already thinning. But at least it's thinning in slow fashion unlike now. And I never had abdominal and all those problems before.

I'm even starting to think that sugar is bad again. When Leonardo found out he had fatty liver, he has to reduce his sugar intake to help flush out the fat out of the liver (http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6193). Even haidut mentioned that high sugar + high protein cause ammonia, and high-protein is needed to help prevent and reverses fatty disease (http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5937)

I'm upset that Peat diets underestimate the importance of healthy liver to fully Peating without issues. Imagine thyroid as V12 (car) engine, and liver as gas tank. No matter how powerful V12 engine is, it can't function well if the gas tank is clogged and sluggish to deliver the fuel into the engine.

At the very least, there should be a huge warning to newcomers that it's important to check their liver function and get that fixed first before starting Peating. Peating only make one's health worse with sluggish/fatty liver. I mean, what if someone starts suing people because he takes Peat's advise verbatim but ends up with stuff like diabetes type 2 or busted kidneys because he didn't get his liver fixed first?

Haidut comment sums it all up well (http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5525#p65295):

haidut said:
So, assuming one keeps a steady dietary supply of sucrose (or some other type of sugar), wouldn't the constant presence of glucose in the blood stream keep insulin chronically elevated too? I have read various, and often contradictory, statements from Peat about the whole blood sugar and insulin thing. Often, he says that it is important to always keep blood glucose up to keep cortisol at bay and metabolism high. Of course, this means insulin would be elevated chronically too. On insulin, Ray sometimes says it is a good hormone responsible for anabolism and keeping tumor growth under control. At other times he has said that elevated insulin is not a good thing. So, I am bit confused about the overall dietary guidelines. Should we try to keep blood sugar elevated all the time but at a certain stable (and reasonable) level, which would imply higher (but stable insulin), or should we do pulse feeds which would temporarily bring insulin up to shuttle the glucose to the muscles and then insulin goes down and the body runs on glycogen from the liver?
I suspect a number of people on the forum struggle with this issue as evidenced by several posts of rapid weight gain, elevated blood glucose and insulin on blood tests and worried doctors making recommendations to cut down on sugar, blood pressure rising in people who did not have blood pressure issues before, etc. Some of these things could be beneficial, but there was a post by one person who said her blood pressure went from 120/80 to 150/90 after adopting the higher sugar diet and after some back and forth with her doctor she decided to quit the Peat diet. Then she reported her blood pressure normalizing after reducing sugar intake. Btw, it is well known in the bodybuilding community that cutting carbs works just like diuretics. I am not an advocate of this, but wouldn't people prone to edema and having thyroid problems get their water-retention problems exacerbated if they increase sugar/carbs intake? I guess that would happen at least initially and the theory is that as their metabolism normalizes they should be able to better utilize glucose and then lose all the excess water. So, the million dollar question is how long does one have to re-feed higher carbs diet (and suppress fatty acid oxidation through the Randle effect) until their insulin sensitivity is restored?
Finally, there have been a number of reports on Peatarian and occasionally on this forum of people experiencing proteinuria (protein in the urine) when increasing sugar intake above 200g daily. If you are eating 80g+ of protein then you probably strive to eat at least as many carbs. Peat has said that this proteinuria is due to people burning PUFA, which makes albumin leak in the urine and show up on the tests but as far as I can tell, these people were actually burning fat before adopting the higher sugar diet and only experienced proteinuria after increasing sugar intake. Of course, they could have had this issue all along and only realized it after switching and measuring their urine but there are several reports of this so I doubt it's a random thing. Somebody also posted a study on thousands of university employees and those who consumes the most sugary drinks reported the highest incidence of proteinuria.
It would be nice if we can get some guidelines on this. Personally, I use caffeine to increase the utilization of sugar and don't really have issues with it, but in theory there should be a way to handle sugar from diet without relying on sugar burning aids like caffeine and/or thyroid. Thyroid does not seem to be a good option for me, and I have tried all kinds of supplementing schedules and dosages. As I have posted on other threads, my experience with sugar only improved after I took serious measures to "normalize" my liver function through caffeine and vitamin K2, BUT my liver enzymes were NORMAL according to the standard lab ranges. If the stats are true and over 80% of people over 30 have some degree of fatty liver, which is the real cause behind type II diabetes, then I think many people adopting the Peat diet will likely experience stress reduction through the lower cortisol, but may end up making their fatty liver worse, especially is supplementing niacinamide and aspirin. Such_Saturation and I posted about this in another thread.
So, my main point is that burning sugar is definitely preferable to burning fat based on both Peat's writings and all the studies I have seen about liver disease being caused by increased lipid peroxidation byproducts, and cirrhosis (in alcoholic rats) being easily and succesfully treated by feeding about 60g-70g of saturated fat like butter or coconut oil for a week, while the rats kept drinking alcohol at the same time! So, on the point of burning sugar I think the question is settled that it is preferable to burning fat.
However, the point is to actually BURN the sugar rather than simply feeding ourselves more of it. For people with sluggish livers, many of whom also take niacinamide and aspirin, this is likely to make the metabolism situation worse by fattening the liver even more, even though admittedly the fat synthesized will be saturated since it is made from sugar. But fatty liver will increase your estrogen no matter how saturated the fat is that you are synthesizing. So, fattening up the liver even more probably won't do much good for metabolism. Another suggestion from Peat would be to increase protein intake to at least 80g a day which should support liver function, lower estrogen and increase conversion of T4 into T3. However, that will likely also not work very well in people with sluggish and fatty livers since underperforming liver will convert a lot of that extra protein into ammonia. Even Peat is clear on this point in one of his articles where he says that "hyperammonemia can be caused by exhaustive exercise or hypothyroidism". This is also evidenced by a number of studies showing that people in their late 30s, 40s, and 50s experience chronic fatigue issues that are greatly helped by giving them ammonia-reducing agents like ornithine or sodium benzoate. And those people consume nowhere near the 80g of protein Peat recommends. So, if they are having ammonia issues imagine how would the people loading up on extra protein would feel.
Which brings us to the point that for many people over the age of 30, simply increasing sugar and/or protein will likely not solve the metabolic issues. Thus, the Peat diet, while the correct way to eat, may not be a solution to the issues of hypothyroidism, but rather a way to avoid the worse option of running on cortisol and adrenalin, which while energizing in the short run will ruin you in the longer run.
Considering the Barnes book "Hypoglycemia: It's not your brain, it's your liver", which I read, it seems that restoring optimal liver function is also a key to improving metabolism. Yes, thyroid function is important too, but I think Peat's recommendation on supplementing thyroid even in the presence of normal thyroid labs may cause issues for a number of people. Charlie, and at least 20 other people have posted on struggling with supplementing thyroid. If they take it, they develop teeth issues, skin issues, anxiety or some other unpleasant symptoms. If they don't take it, their digestion slows down to a crawl or they start getting hypothyroid symptoms like brain fog or muscle issues, etc.
So, if the stats are true and the evidence I have seen is legit, then eating according to the peat guidelines is a great strategy AFTER metabolism is fixed. But if 80% of people over 30 are having liver issues or some other problems with metabolism, then the diet will be certainly supportive, but likely not "curative". And for some people with particularly bad liver problems the situation may end up getting worse in a way due to even more fatty liver issues or higher ammonia levels. Just ask anybody over the age of 40 if they are having trouble maintaining (let alone building) muscle mass.
Then the question becomes, what will aid metabolic recovery, other than blindly supplementing thyroid even in the presence of normal thyroid labs? I guess the answer Peat will give is that one needs to wait at least 4 years and get rid of the PUFA before starting to see solid results. There is some solid evidence in favor of lower PUFA fixing metabolic issues. But I wonder if working on liver health or trying to build more muscle will also help while waiting out the PUFA detox period? Uncoupling agents are probably also key, but they should probably be other than aspirin since it may make fatty liver issues worse for many people if used in the doses needed for mitochondrial uncoupling. Finally, increasing CO2 production or intake somehow will also likely have a key role. Just throwing things out there that seem to be cardinal methods for improving metabolism.
Sorry about the long rant, I just felt like this deserves some attention since a number of threads pop on the forum asking the same questions and I have been thinking about this for some time. If someone knows about Peat's definitive opinion on this issue please share it. Maybe I missed it in his articles. IMHO, after reading pretty much all of his published stuff, reading people's testimonies/complaints, cross-referencing this with studies, and my own experience, I think a number of chicken/egg question still remain.
Anybody care to comment?

I'm going back to drawing board and starting over again. Obviously my liver is hurting right now, and it's my first goal to fix now.


Not to be rude or anything. But if you think you have figured out what a "RP diet" is and everything around RP in 3 months you have no clue and you will continue to bounce around trying every diet out there that will give you this overnight success or that magic pill. RP`s writings surrounding everything is so deep i have no words. Ive done this for 2 years and i still havent figured out that much, im learning something new everytime i read his articles. Im sorry you feel bad but you have not scratched the surface of this. Based on your foods, calorie intake and everything you clearly has not understood much off the "RP diet" either.

GL with your low carb diet, but dont be a "RP diet" hater and tell everyone it does not work when RP diet does not exist in the first place and your intrepretation of his writings where just yours and probably far away from his aswell
 

Tom

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Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
100
As regards the fatty liver, in Roman times, feeding goose enormous amounts of figs were used to fatten up the liver to make what is today called "fois gras". However today corn starch (forced fed) is used instead as it is cheaper and likely more effective.

So sure, lots of sugar and fruits can cause a fatty liver, as can too much fats and starch, but blaming it exclusively on sugar/fructose doesn´t make so much sense to me.

Chris Masterjohn mentioned in an article how the more saturated fats like butter and coconut oil made the fatty liver problem worse than the more unsaturated like olive oil (oleic acid) and PUFAs. He mentioned that on 20E% protein (casein) fatty liver didn´t occur, but on 5% protein it did in mice, but he also mentioned how sufficient choline could prevent the fatty liver even if protein intake was low. See also: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24368431

Given that human milk has typically only 6E% protein, yet 55E% fats and 39E% sugar/lactose, it would in this sense be a great recipe for producing fatty liver. But given its very high content of choline, or maybe other nutrients, it likely won´t. Human milk is also relatively higher in pantothenic acid than most other vitamins/minerals relative to the RDA.

So the fatty liver seems to be related to overfeeding, insufficient protein, and insufficient choline, and perhaps an already poor liver function to begin with. I don´t think it is related to starch or sugar or saturated fats per se. These may all cause the problem in the absence of enough protein/choline. If the liver isn´t working properly then you cannot burn off the fats/calories and the problem gets worse, so the solution is just to eat enough protein and choline, while reducing the amount of fat and carbs in the diet until the liver function is normalized. Then get back to a Peat type diet again.
 

tara

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Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,368
I'm sorry you are having such a hard time. I understand it is frustrating.

I think that recovery from severe carb or calorie deprivation can take more than 3 mths.
I also think if it seems to be going really badly for you, it's probably a good idea to change something. Backing off and starting over might give you a chance to find a more successful way forward.

I agree with sueq that you might be throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you abandon all Peat's ideas, and that letting yourself eat somewhat more intuitively for a bit might help you figure out what you need.
I also agree with RPD that there is likely to be more to learn from Peat that is relevant for you.
I don't believe there is such a thing as The Peat Diet protocol that you can simply choose to adhere to rigidly and expect it to work for everyone. There isn't such a precise thing, as far as I can tell (notwithstanding that there is some clearly expressed information and opinion from Peat about the effects of foods). Peat advises learning (and I believe there is a lot to be learned from him about physiology) and observing and thinking and experimenting.

I hope you can find a way forward. I'll be interested in what you find.
 
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Strongbad

Strongbad

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Feb 12, 2015
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291
I don't discredit Ray Peat in any way. His ultimate goal is to optimize our body metabolic rate using carbohydrates instead of fat. Unfortunately, my body and liver is not ready for it.

It's like trying to tune up V12 engine but completely neglecting the clogged fuel tank. The engine is nothing without freely-moving fuel coming in.

I'm pretty sure if your liver is fine then your Peating journey will have some ups and downs but you'll be okay.

If your liver is messed up in addition of hypo, then Peating will wreck havoc to your health. At least that's what my experience is.

For now my focus is to cure liver then hypothyroidism without triggering much of stress hormones that accelerate hair loss.

I have no intention to go back to low carb diet. I'm just saying that all the health wreck I've been having by Peating makes all the health issues from low-carbing looks good in comparison. Ironic.

I just hope that one day RP movement will have a basic guidelines for newbies to start Ray Peat diet properly. Sure, everybody has different health conditions, but they still need basic framework to work with. Even Paleo, low fat and all-fruit diets have such manuals. Easy to read, easy to follow.
 

aquaman

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Aug 9, 2013
Messages
1,297
Post your logs of food (including timing) and body temps and pulse.

(and If you don't have these, it's a good indication of why you're failing).

Also - I was listening to a Peat radio interview a few days ago where he says he takes no supplements apart from Thyroid.
 

Brian

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Joined
Jun 8, 2014
Messages
505
Strongbad said:
At the very least, there should be a huge warning to newcomers that it's important to check their liver function and get that fixed first before starting Peating. Peating only make one's health worse with sluggish/fatty liver. I mean, what if someone starts suing people because he takes Peat's advise verbatim but ends up with stuff like diabetes type 2 or busted kidneys because he didn't get his liver fixed first?

I agree with you a lot on this. Many newcomers get the idea that they must follow an extremely restrictive fructose based diet and try many supplements all at once or else they can't benefit at all from Ray's work. Although this can and does work for many, this is likely a disaster for many depending on the context.

In my opinion newcomers need to realize there is a priority of things to try to apply Peat's ideas of how nutrition and lifestyle contribute to wellness. For me the priority is this:

1) Fat solubles: Getting small amounts of A,D,E,K. The estrogen, prolactin, serotonin lowering benefits usually work no matter your diet. I gave my 58 year old mom Haidut's Estroban and she lost 12 pounds of water weight very quickly in less than two months among other estrogen, prolactin, serotonin benefits. She did not change anything else about her diet.

2) Some kind of endotoxin reducing technique: The daily grated carrot/vinegar/MCT oil/(and optionally garlic) combo is effective for most people. I notice very significant decreases in estrogen/serotonin from this, even though my diet contains plenty of starch and fibers.

3) Keeping the body warmer than 98.6 degrees with clothing/showers/sun/exercise as necessary: This isn't a point that Ray emphasizes, but I think it can be very helpful for people like you who have very low temperatures. The benefits of a warmer body no matter the reason seem to have lots of metabolism and stress lowering effects.

4) Getting some daily morning or late afternoon sun, and some brief midday sun: Yes, getting some redlight on you all day would be optimal, but just starting with more natural sun can produce enormous benefits for the circadian rhythm and reducing cortisol. Just go on a mile walk a couple times a day in the morning or evening and find a place you can sunbathe with a lot of skin visible.

I would dare say that these four things done consistently can produce great results agnostic to whatever else you are eating. I think newcomer's should start here before drastically changing their diet and adding all sorts of supplements. Just do this for a few months, enjoy the benefits without stressing over anything else. Then you can consider some additional changes at that point.

I personally don't restrict my diet much, except for seed oils, even that I'm not deathly afraid of in small quantities. I really only focus on the above four things and just eat to taste and I'm very satisfied with the results and not all that motivated to try much more, but I enjoy experimenting so I probably eventually will.

So, just know that your concerns are legit and you don't have to go extreme, and probably shouldn't to benefit from Peat's ideas.
 
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Pulse?
Temp? Check.
Bloodwork?

Those who are successful with Peat have three things in common: they measure pulse, they measure temp, they get blood tests.

People can save themselves, literally, years of confusion with simple blood work.
 
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Strongbad

Strongbad

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Body temp is around 95.8 in the morning, about 96.8F in the afternoon and 96.1F before sleep. If I get extremely active throughout the day and upping my my calories I can be up to 97.9F. That'd be a lucky day for me.

My current approximate food regimen:

morning: Vitamin K supplement + 3 tablespoon cup raw honey + 1/4 cup greek yogurt + 1/4 cup cottage cheese + (sometimes) mexican cocacola + 1/4 cup orange juice (i've been minimizing liquid lately) + 1 duck eggs + 1 tsp coconut oil + some underground vegetables (carrots, onions, cucumbers)

sometime before noon:

Vitamin A, E, D3 supplement (I used to supplement thaurine, aspirin, niacinamide, B1,B5,B6,B12, zinc and others but no more)

Noon:

4oz of meat (now moving to organ meats) + 1 duck egg + underground vegetables + 3 tablespoon raw honey with little sips of orange juice + 1 cup of low fat milk mixed with cacao powder and 1 tbsp of raw honey + 2 tbsp of greek yogurt + 2 tbsp of cottage cheese

Mid afternoon:

occasional snacks of some tbsp of raw honey, cottage cheese and greek yogurt. Also occasional little sips of orange juice and milk to satiate appetite

Evening dinner:

Very similar to my breakfast but with 4 oz of meat.

The rest of the night I have occasional snacks similar to mid afternoon

I sip about 3-5 tablespoons of salt and 1/4 of eggshell powder per day. I also eat a can of oysters and 1 lbs of beef liver once a week.

I don't have blood work and bpm yet. I just purchased bpm wrist a few days ago and I don't know what blood work to get, especially in my current condition (liver included).
 

ravster02

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Sep 22, 2014
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aquaman said:
Post your logs of food (including timing) and body temps and pulse.

(and If you don't have these, it's a good indication of why you're failing).

Also - I was listening to a Peat radio interview a few days ago where he says he takes no supplements apart from Thyroid.

Why don't you stop taking supplements and see how far you get.
 

Bodhi

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Strongbad,

You can try a more "classical" naturopathic approach ...

First i would have a thorough intestinal examination ...

Make sure you know if your good flora is ok, how your fat metabolism goes (too much fat in stool indicate liver, gallbladder problems) test for parasites... and immume response ...

If this is ok you should try Gallbladder flushes (Andreas Moritz) too see if liver function is getting better..
If this does not work i would go see a very good Ayurvedic doctor...

You know in Ayurveda everybody is considered different thus having different Metabolic rate, different nutritional needs etc... In Ayurveda there is allot of focus on digestion as being most important for health, so it's more about HOW you digest instead of what u eat... The idea is that when u eat perfect diet but your body is not able to convert it in the energy (Prana) u need it is like flushing your supplements in the toilet...

Namaste...

Bodhi
 
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Strongbad

Strongbad

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At this point, I've stop taking most supplement except vitamin D3 just in case it's cloudy outside.

The naturopathic approach seems intriguing. I'll definitely check it out. Thank you.
 

jaguar43

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I think the problem is that many people try to fit a "diet plan" approach to Ray Peat's recommendations. And its quite the opposite.

Have you read the most recent newsletter ? In the first page, Dr peat makes the statement that society tries to mold the individual within the culture's image. Rather than mold the society or culture to the person. I think the same can be said about his diet recommendations.

Don't try to fit yourself within a stereotype, because you will never succeed. Try and take what Ray Peat has recommend and fit it for yourself. And, really thats all what his work is about in nutrition. Just see what works and if it does, Continue. If it doesn't then discard it for now. Because later it may have some value.
 

ravster02

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Sep 22, 2014
Messages
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Strongbad said:
At this point, I've stop taking most supplement except vitamin D3 just in case it's cloudy outside.

The naturopathic approach seems intriguing. I'll definitely check it out. Thank you.

It's good that you have an idea of your temp/pulse but you really need to get liver/kidney/thyroid tests done, make it a priority.

It's the best way to give us the information we need to help you.
 

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