I'm Done Looking For A Method To Lower Body Fat Without Caloric Restriction

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Ron J

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I avoid beta-carotene. I can't remember the exact explanation, but I think it was something about beta-carotene acting like PUFA. Is there another decent fiber source aside from bamboo shoots and white mushrooms?
 

cyclops

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I avoid beta-carotene. I can't remember the exact explanation, but I think it was something about beta-carotene acting like PUFA. Is there another decent fiber source aside from bamboo shoots and white mushrooms?

It must not be too big a deal if Ray recommends them daily. He knows the dangers of beta-carotene and pufa very well.
 

Reaper242xx

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A high calorie diet won't necessarily increase your metabolic function. The problem isn't the calorie intake, it's your body's ability, or lack thereof, to utilize those calories in energy production (ATP). The best thing to do is eat pro metabolic foods (i.e milk, surcose, salt, orange juice, ripe fruits, coconut oil, gelatin, saturated fat, etc.) and limit the really nasty things, primarily PUFA, soy, gluten, etc. Doing this, by itself, should help a lot. If you're gaining weight while doing this, then the problem might be you're caloric intake is exceeding your resting metabolic rate (RMR). Or the problem might be meal frequency, I don't care what food you eat, if you're waiting long enough in between meals for your liver to tap the rest of it's glycogen reserves then your body is triggering stress hormones and suppressing thyroid hormone to keep your blood sugar steady. Try 5 or 6 smaller meals a day instead of 3 big meals. Personally I eat something about every 2.5 hours. Ways to increase your resting metabolic rate is simple, try standing up periodically throughout the day. People who stand more often then they sit have higher resting metabolism. Also, standing provides minimal to no increase in stress, which is good. As long as you can keep it non stressful, a 1 to 2 mile slow walk can have wonderful effects on metabolism. Just make sure you're well stocked in liver glycogen beforehand and never exceed to the point that you're having to mouth breath (i.e hyperventilation is stressful and inhibits thyroid). If you want to know the best thing though, try resistance training. Body weight exercises (pushups, setups, pullups, etc.) and weight lifting will just turn those extra calories into muscle. Problem is it'll naturally increase your caloric demand as well, so they go hand and hand. You're either gaining or losing in the gym. Most people, if they do these things, will find their metabolism slowly correcting itself. However, if there is still a problem, try some of the non-diet things that are good for metablolsim. Like bag breathing, red light therapy, aspirin, dessicated thyroid, vitamin E, thiamine, niacinamide, even nicotine. Sunlight exposure is good too, which is something I haven't heard Peat discuss extensively. Go bearback in the sun for about 20 to 30 minutes a day. Sunlight converts serum cholesterol into pro-thyroid hormones.
 

Glassy

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A high calorie diet won't necessarily increase your metabolic function. The problem isn't the calorie intake, it's your body's ability, or lack thereof, to utilize those calories in energy production (ATP). The best thing to do is eat pro metabolic foods (i.e milk, surcose, salt, orange juice, ripe fruits, coconut oil, gelatin, saturated fat, etc.) and limit the really nasty things, primarily PUFA, soy, gluten, etc. Doing this, by itself, should help a lot. If you're gaining weight while doing this, then the problem might be you're caloric intake is exceeding your resting metabolic rate (RMR).

Having an abundance of calories is important though. Your body will automatically increase NEAT and your BMR if there is a surplus of calories than can’t be stored as energy. This is why Ray cautions high fat intake if you are concerned about body fat accumulation. Fat is easily stored for later energy use and has no real upper limit. If your excess calories are in the form of carbohydrates your body either has to excrete them, burn them, store them as glycogen or convert them into fat for storage.

DNL in humans is ramped up when fat intake is low and carbohydrates high but we’re not like rodents. It’s very hard for us to convert all the excess calories into fat storage and so metabolic processes are raised. NEAT increases (fidgeting, moving your arms/legs, etc) unconconsciously - you don’t need to consciously stand up every few minutes to force this. This increase in metabolism inherently also raises our requirements for nutrients (minerals, vitamins, etc). In this state most ingested fat is stored in preference for burning the surplus of carbohydrates.

Yes it’s important to minimise seeds, nuts, legumes, beans and their oils. Standing up regularly or going for walks may have benefits but it will not raise your metabolism unless you eat to match this requirement. It may limit fat accumulation or burn some fat, but this has the affect of lowering your BMR over time.

I think many people on this forum have had a lot of success with raising their metabolism (and their health) by increasing caloric intake, minimising PUFAs and seeds while supporting the body with animal fat and coconut oil. The issue seems to be the accumulation of body fat that almost feels like a by product of becoming more healthy. It doesn’t have to be but it seems to be common. I think many people on this forum try to tackle this superficial problem by taking supplements and drugs in the hope it will reduce body fat without the stress of caloric restriction.
 
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lollipop

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The issue seems to be the accumulation of body fat that almost feels like a by product of becoming more healthy. It doesn’t have to be but it seems to be common.
Curious @Glassy, how would you attack this problem? Low fat higher carbs and the fat you do eat make it saturated fat?
 

Glassy

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Curious @Glassy, how would you attack this problem? Low fat higher carbs and the fat you do eat make it saturated fat?

Hi Lisa,

This is how I’m tackling it (I decided not to embark on standard calories restriction) as we approach spring here in Australia. I’m about 10kg heavier than I’d like to be which is about what I put on in water and fat since finding Peat last November. I have no serious health problems or blood sugar issues and my thyroid seems to functioning ok. I just want to drop some subcutaneous body fat without feeling like cr@p.

My approach:
Very low total fat (aiming for <10g) with plenty of easily digesting carbohydrates. High calories in the form of well cooked starches, fruit, juice, juice concentrates and some low fat protein (gelatine, Greek yogurt) in addition to any protein inherently found in the starches and fruit. Protein should be less of a concern when in a calorie surplus (less catabolic) and I’m cutting back heavily on animal flesh.

The aim is to go higher than TDEE (total daily energy expenditure) but no need to go crazy. Your BMR should catch up to this intake over a couple weeks (it’s slower to respond to a surplus than a deficit). You should also be able to self regulate (you will find it difficult/unappealing to consume more food) without the risk of fat accumulation (because fat intake is low).

Your body will produce some fat from the carbohydrates but it’s insignificant since your body also requires some fat even when predominantly burning carbohydrates for fuel and humans suck at DNL. With the surplus calories, I assume that most fat consumed will go straight to storage or at least offset any body fat that would have been used for processes requiring fat and so I minimise this as far as it feels comfortable to do so.

Without a doubt if you’re going to consume fat go for the most saturated kind. CO is said to behave more like a carbohydrate than a fat and also has many protective properties but I’m on the fence as to whether it can be processed and stored as body fat (it’s probably the safest source for minimising fat accumulation though - I’m still not adding it to my carrot salad again just yet). I have liver once a week as well as a dozen massive Tasmanian oysters. I cook my liver with beef mince and use some tallow which is the highest fat meal of the week but I figure the fat probably helps with absorbing the nutrients. The oysters have have with some trimmed bacon and cheese and is my second highest fat meal.

Some notes:
At some point I plan to start incorporating more saturated fat back into my diet but that’s all dependent on how I feel. I think the occasional higher fat meal is fine as well as long as it’s low PUFA. I’m taking vit K, magnesium and some Cascara regularly because I feel it’s good for my body right now. I’m sure people could benefit from taking thyroid, niacinamide, aspirin, cypro, taurine, etc if they help but they’re not of much benefit to me right now and I don’t want to introduce more variables.
 
L

lollipop

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Hi Lisa,

This is how I’m tackling it (I decided not to embark on standard calories restriction) as we approach spring here in Australia. I’m about 10kg heavier than I’d like to be which is about what I put on in water and fat since finding Peat last November. I have no serious health problems or blood sugar issues and my thyroid seems to functioning ok. I just want to drop some subcutaneous body fat without feeling like cr@p.

My approach:
Very low total fat (aiming for <10g) with plenty of easily digesting carbohydrates. High calories in the form of well cooked starches, fruit, juice, juice concentrates and some low fat protein (gelatine, Greek yogurt) in addition to any protein inherently found in the starches and fruit. Protein should be less of a concern when in a calorie surplus (less catabolic) and I’m cutting back heavily on animal flesh.

The aim is to go higher than TDEE (total daily energy expenditure) but no need to go crazy. Your BMR should catch up to this intake over a couple weeks (it’s slower to respond to a surplus than a deficit). You should also be able to self regulate (you will find it difficult/unappealing to consume more food) without the risk of fat accumulation (because fat intake is low).

Your body will produce some fat from the carbohydrates but it’s insignificant since your body also requires some fat even when predominantly burning carbohydrates for fuel and humans suck at DNL. With the surplus calories, I assume that most fat consumed will go straight to storage or at least offset any body fat that would have been used for processes requiring fat and so I minimise this as far as it feels comfortable to do so.

Without a doubt if you’re going to consume fat go for the most saturated kind. CO is said to behave more like a carbohydrate than a fat and also has many protective properties but I’m on the fence as to whether it can be processed and stored as body fat (it’s probably the safest source for minimising fat accumulation though - I’m still not adding it to my carrot salad again just yet). I have liver once a week as well as a dozen massive Tasmanian oysters. I cook my liver with beef mince and use some tallow which is the highest fat meal of the week but I figure the fat probably helps with absorbing the nutrients. The oysters have have with some trimmed bacon and cheese and is my second highest fat meal.

Some notes:
At some point I plan to start incorporating more saturated fat back into my diet but that’s all dependent on how I feel. I think the occasional higher fat meal is fine as well as long as it’s low PUFA. I’m taking vit K, magnesium and some Cascara regularly because I feel it’s good for my body right now. I’m sure people could benefit from taking thyroid, niacinamide, aspirin, cypro, taurine, etc if they help but they’re not of much benefit to me right now and I don’t want to introduce more variables.
Thank you @Glassy - very informative. You seem balanced in your approach and I am sure like myself, others reading this can benefit from your effort in this great response.

I do think you have understood what seems to be the general struggle here. Healthier but a bit overweight (not obese) from all the posts I have read. But people do struggle with weight gain. I did at first as well transitioning from vlc to Peat diet and did not drop fat down fast enough as I increased carbs. I had been on restricted diets for so long, I think the added gain actually served my health. Then overtime as my GI improved and I found a happy median in diet and movement, my weight normalized and the fat reduced without much effort.
 

Glassy

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Thank you @Glassy - very informative. You seem balanced in your approach and I am sure like myself, others reading this can benefit from your effort in this great response.

I do think you have understood what seems to be the general struggle here. Healthier but a bit overweight (not obese) from all the posts I have read. But people do struggle with weight gain. I did at first as well transitioning from vlc to Peat diet and did not drop fat down fast enough as I increased carbs. I had been on restricted diets for so long, I think the added gain actually served my health. Then overtime as my GI improved and I found a happy median in diet and movement, my weight normalized and the fat reduced without much effort.

I hope so Lisa. It’s what I probably should have done 8 months ago but I don’t think I was ready then. I was lucky in that I had gone from keto to Lean Gains before I started Peating and id already dropped fat intake while introducing carbs. The 12 months or so low carb had made me still quite attached (at least emotionally) to my fat sources which were luckily more saturated even before finding Peat’s work. I thought I was a natural fat burner and needed 50g+ Fat per day just to feel normal.

In my own mind I’m not bringing anything new to the table that hasn’t been proposed or done by someone else on this forum. It’s an approach that I previously saw as effective but not practical (it may not be longer term). The biggest mystery to me is why it is not making me miserable and craving salty, fatty foods (maybe because I’m eating a fair amount of salt). I’m sure time will tell and that the approach needs to be adjusted
 

Reaper242xx

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Having an abundance of calories is important though. Your body will automatically increase NEAT and your BMR if there is a surplus of calories than can’t be stored as energy. This is why Ray cautions high fat intake if you are concerned about body fat accumulation. Fat is easily stored for later energy use and has no real upper limit. If your excess calories are in the form of carbohydrates your body either has to excrete them, burn them, store them as glycogen or convert them into fat for storage.

DNL in humans is ramped up when fat intake is low and carbohydrates high but we’re not like rodents. It’s very hard for us to convert all the excess calories into fat storage and so metabolic processes are raised. NEAT increases (fidgeting, moving your arms/legs, etc) unconconsciously - you don’t need to consciously stand up every few minutes to force this. This increase in metabolism inherently also raises our requirements for nutrients (minerals, vitamins, etc). In this state most ingested fat is stored in preference for burning the surplus of carbohydrates.

Yes it’s important to minimise seeds, nuts, legumes, beans and their oils. Standing up regularly or going for walks may have benefits but it will not raise your metabolism unless you eat to match this requirement. It may limit fat accumulation or burn some fat, but this has the affect of lowering your BMR over time.

I think many people on this forum have had a lot of success with raising their metabolism (and their health) by increasing caloric intake, minimising PUFAs and seeds while supporting the body with animal fat and coconut oil. The issue seems to be the accumulation of body fat that almost feels like a by product of becoming more healthy. It doesn’t have to be but it seems to be common. I think many people on this forum try to tackle this superficial problem by taking supplements and drugs in the hope it will reduce body fat without the stress of caloric restriction.
Sure yeah, I wasn't really advocating for a calorie deficit. I'm not a fan of major restriction of dietary fats, in fact most of the studies Peat has mentioned saturated fat is good for metabolic function. In fact Peat stated you can have up to 50% of your calories from fat and not experience problems provided that were saturated fats.
 

Blossom

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Just google lichen sclerosus and you'll understand ,desperate for answers- want to cure not use steroids/ estrogen which are the only known medical treatment. Months of research brought me to this forum. I was in remission it took work, following Ray Peat principles. Buy, had a recent flare, I suspect dairy. So cutting that out, going back to lower protein to see what happens. Post you provided is very helpful, thanks again
I thought you might find this article of interest.
Therapeutic utility of palmitoylethanolamide in the treatment of neuropathic pain associated with various pathological conditions: a case series
 

saraleah

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Thank you Blossom yes, this is I hope going to be very helpful. My diagnosis was suspected but not confirmed by biopsy- generalized inflammation being treated as Lichen , cause of inflammation unknown. Cause of soreness, pain unknown. I refused long term Clobetasol for a condition that was only suspect. lesions are gone/remission that residual pain could be a form of neuropathy is not impossible. Im going to pick up some PEA and take it with ALA , cant locate the gel in the US unfortunately. Ill repost after using it for a while
 

Blossom

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Thank you Blossom yes, this is I hope going to be very helpful. My diagnosis was suspected but not confirmed by biopsy- generalized inflammation being treated as Lichen , cause of inflammation unknown. Cause of soreness, pain unknown. I refused long term Clobetasol for a condition that was only suspect. lesions are gone/remission that residual pain could be a form of neuropathy is not impossible. Im going to pick up some PEA and take it with ALA , cant locate the gel in the US unfortunately. Ill repost after using it for a while
Great! Thanks
I looked at the three offshore pharmacies I've used and they didn't have the gel either. :(
I'll be looking forward to your report.
 
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Ron J

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I wanted more strength, so I was replacing some calories from fruit juice with starch. I felt stronger, but it seemed to stop weight loss, or cause water retention/swelling(sinuses). No more starch until I get bellow 12% body fat.
 
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Ron J

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I was getting low CO2, high prolactin, high serotonin symptoms while losing fat, and ended up consuming starches(cravings), but I stopped due to the annoying inflamed sinuses/flu-like symptoms. I'm currently losing weight; lets see what happens in a few months.
 

revenant

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I'm having a hard time losing weight while aiming for 1,500 kcal per day -- a deficit of around 500-600 kcal for a mid-30's male, if BMR calculators are to be trusted.

I lost weight slowly but surely on 1,500 kcal before adopting a more Peat-like diet. Not easy, but still losing a kilo or so per month. For example, I used to eat potatoes every day because their satiety index is the really high. Low in calories but stave off hunger for a long time. Besides, resistant starch was all the rage among the paleo crowd a while back, but according to Peat, maybe starch isn't all that great.

I'm also wary of orange juice as fructose is usually considered pretty bad (one thing that I especially remember is that fructose is prone to form AGEs, just like PUFAs are prone to peroxidation), but am willing to give it a go just to see how I feel.

The weird thing is that when I was in my 20's, I could eat anything and stay very skinny. Around 32 or so that all stopped and I started putting on weight. I don't have any of symptoms of low thyroid (I more often feel hot than cold, I'm not tired, pulse is around 80-90, body temp is close to 37, etc). But I do feel like my metabolic rate is nowhere near 2000, because if I eat 2000 per day I slowly gain weight.
 

tara

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But I do feel like my metabolic rate is nowhere near 2000, because if I eat 2000 per day I slowly gain weight.
I think you are right, unless you are particularly small, that gaining weight on 2000 cals would indicate your base metabolic rate is low.

Peat has said spoken of good nutrition in potatoes, even if he isn't all that keen on the starch itself.
 

Hans

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I'm having a hard time losing weight while aiming for 1,500 kcal per day -- a deficit of around 500-600 kcal for a mid-30's male, if BMR calculators are to be trusted.

I lost weight slowly but surely on 1,500 kcal before adopting a more Peat-like diet. Not easy, but still losing a kilo or so per month. For example, I used to eat potatoes every day because their satiety index is the really high. Low in calories but stave off hunger for a long time. Besides, resistant starch was all the rage among the paleo crowd a while back, but according to Peat, maybe starch isn't all that great.

I'm also wary of orange juice as fructose is usually considered pretty bad (one thing that I especially remember is that fructose is prone to form AGEs, just like PUFAs are prone to peroxidation), but am willing to give it a go just to see how I feel.

The weird thing is that when I was in my 20's, I could eat anything and stay very skinny. Around 32 or so that all stopped and I started putting on weight. I don't have any of symptoms of low thyroid (I more often feel hot than cold, I'm not tired, pulse is around 80-90, body temp is close to 37, etc). But I do feel like my metabolic rate is nowhere near 2000, because if I eat 2000 per day I slowly gain weight.
Fructose isn't a problem, especially if it's from freshly juiced fruits. Fructose has a GI of about 19 and it increases energy expenditure and CO2 production more than glucose.

I think it would be a good idea to stop with the caloric deficit for now, eat in a surplus for a few weeks to recover your metabolism, and then you can go in a slight deficit and regulator breaks to drop the weight.

It's first important to be in good health before dieting, as dieting is a stressor, which will prevent metabolic recovery.

So go in a surplus for a while, while perhaps use supplements to ensure proper glucose oxidation while blocking excessive fat oxidation and that will lower cortisol, estrogen and prolactin while boosting thyroid, androgens and dopamine.

Another important aspect to consider is that, because you have been eating so little calories for a long time, you most likely have quite a few vitamin and mineral deficiencies. So focus on eating nutrient dense foods while in the surplus to fix those deficiencies.
 

revenant

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I ate a surplus for a week and a half a while ago and gained 4 kg. That's why I'm reducing calories again.

As I understand it, fructose has a low glycemic index because it's handled by the liver mainly. GI is not really a useful measure for fructose. But I'm not convinced drinking liters of orange juice every day is beneficial. See for example:

Long-Term Fructose Consumption Accelerates Glycation and Several Age-Related Variables in Male Rats

The purpose of this study was to investigate the consequences of long-term fructose consumption, compared with glucose or sucrose, on glycation, lipid peroxidation and aging. We measured the levels of fructosamine and GHb as indices of glycation, urine malondialdehyde levels as an indication of lipid peroxidation, and collagen solubility, crosslinking and fluorescence as age-related parameters. Because previous in vitro studies clearly showed that fructose is a more potent glycating agent than glucose (Bunns and Higgins 1981) and is as much as 10-fold more efficient at forming AGE (McPherson et al. 1988), we hypothesized that chronic fructose intake may adversely affect aging in vivo. Fructose consumption increased blood fructosamine and GHb, urine lipid peroxidation excretion, skin collagen crosslinking, collagen-bound fluorescence in cortical bones, and decreased skin collagen solubility. Thus, we suggest that fructose, compared with glucose or sucrose, accelerates the normal aging process.​

https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/128/9/1442/4722474

I use Cronometer to measure my nutrient intake and have no deficincies that I'm aware of; whatever I don't get from food I supplement.
 

rei

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I'm Done Looking For A Method To Lower Body Fat Without Caloric Restriction

Don't be. Eat all calories in one meal during an hour or two. Guaranteed to result in mainly fat loss and muscle gain.
 

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