I'm Done Looking For A Method To Lower Body Fat Without Caloric Restriction

Terma

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In my experience, moderate protein is fine. If you're eating moderate or higher protein and 30-45% of that is already gelatin then I think one will be fine. Then keep fat at 10% or below, and keep carbs higher while having a slight caloric deficit. Too low protein while losing weight will usually result in more muscle loss than if more protein was consumed, in my experience and the research I have seen. If you're in a caloric deficit, chances are fat will be used as energy regardless. I highly doubt choline will make one gain much if any fat weight in a caloric deficit because, as we know with the law of thermodynamics, for energy to be stored, it must first be consumed in excess. A caloric deficit in of itself (especially with low dietary fat) should force liver fat to be burned. Also caffeine and Vitamin k2 can help heal the liver as well. The leanest I have got was low fat moderate/higher protein, higher carb, starch-free, with skimmed milk being the main protein source. This has been the experience of many others on this forum as well. I as well as many others keep finding that this is what has worked best for us when wanting to get very lean especially. Calcium in milk also will likely help the fat-loss process as well. I think the type of protein consumed is more important than total protein consumed. With milk and glycine mixed at each or most meals especially, you have a very favorable amino acid ratio that shouldn't lead to the stress response one would have from eating a lot of red meat or egg whites.
The milk is good at supplying calcium obviously, and obviously good to consume around resistance exercise. And good amino acid composition, for that purpose.

However, some people like me, have never been able to lose weight while consuming casein. For unclear reasons. (For anyone for whom milk seems to stall weight loss: don't bang your head against a wall) And yes with gelatin, glycine, etc.

And it's clear that forced systemic IGF-1 increase from dairy is only good for muscle building, a bit, while growth hormone (+ its accompanying IGF-1) would be much more efficient at weight loss in general, exploited properly. Casein is naturally designed for a specific purpose, and that was never weight loss, so it's natural to expect it might not be ideal for other circumstances.

The choline thing is a given, it is not necessarily about gaining weight, but that it might unexpectedly temporarily work against weight loss.

[The other things I would say I agree, with these kinds of disclaimers attached]
 

Terma

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Keep in mind most of you are consuming fructose, so the liver gets a disproportionate share of the energy from the carbs. It's also the selfless organ so it will export its fat, while the other tissues have to work in excess for a while.

And while I certainly agree that on paper casein has an attractive animo acid composition, unfortunately for some of us its other properties (and properties of dairy in general) end up ruling it out one way or another.
 

TripleOG

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Kinda goes without saying you need enough thyroid and to keep cortisol low. However in my opinion, you may have to consider more dietary/lifestyle strategies that don't specifically impede or even promote the production of growth hormone or norepinephrine (while you're trying to lower cortisol), because together with thyroid these shed the fat.

Care to expound? Thought increases in growth hormone & norepinephrine coincided with increased cortisol.
 

ddjd

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Joeyd, this reminded me of your post about bioavailable phosphatidylcholine supplements -- BodyBio, American Lecithin, and Essentiale Forte®. What phosphatidylcholine gives you the flat abs?
i can't find this old post, can you link to it if you can find it.
 

Terma

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Care to expound? Thought increases in growth hormone & norepinephrine coincided with increased cortisol.
In waking state, and in so many circumstances people try to apply GH, GH and cortisol naturally do due to stress events, however: in healthiest people, cortisol should be low at night while growth hormone gets an important spike. That's the first step, to ensure GH has a good spike at night, meaning sleep very well, using glycine and GABA agonists if you have to. You can find a few other substances that at least in theory appear to antagonize cortisol while promoting GH. There's usually some circumstance attached.

My estimate is that a significant part of intermittent and 16-hour fasting's main success is due to heavily promoting circadian rhythms, and GH in particular (I doubt this part is debatable), even when it's not used to trigger GH in any other special/stressful way during the day. This is not well appreciated on RP forums, but a measure of health is the amplitude of various circadian rhythms measured especially from nightly processes. Aging seems to correlate perfectly with its flattening, and IF/short fasting provides a temporary workaround. The older you get the more true this will seem. And with the more weight you have to lose.

As for increasing GH secretion during the day, I actually don't advocate that beyond normal resistance exercise. But a few desperate people might have to try it in different ways, in which case it's a question of proportion between them and compensating for cortisol-induced lean tissue loss mostly temporally with extra resistance exercise combined with carbs+protein during feeding states. With IF/16-hour, some people get really lucky and it works well enough on the GH they don't even have to trigger it that much, and the body will compensate temporally enough for cortisol damage when it receives anabolic signals from protein and carbs.

Norepinephrine is easier, because if you follow the basics: Glucose Counterregulatory Responses to Hypoglycemia
It comes before cortisol, so you get a temporal slice of cake to work with, and in general if you take any forcefully cortisol-lowering substance during the day, the body will try to fight it with more norepinephrine unless it's specifically antagonized as well.

Keep in mind all this is for nothing if thyroid is too poor. Thyroid works with both of them. So there's a fine balance between promoting all these things. But you can always try some exogenous T4/T3 to correct to normal level, while exogenous GH (don't take IGF-1 for weight loss) I would not normally advocate, though it's a thing to try if you're desperate and have money.
 
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Andman

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If you've got a defective PEMT gene like i have, you can't convert the choline into the phosphatidylcholine that you need to reverse fatty liver. Just as a test, try taking a capsule of phosphatidylcholine. Five minutes after ive taken it my stomach shrinks from bloated to completely flat. its amazing.

sounds like a reduction in cortisol which PC is known to do. haidut has described very similar effects with lapodin which also strongly lowers cortisol
 

ddjd

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sounds like a reduction in cortisol which PC is known to do. haidut has described very similar effects with lapodin which also strongly lowers cortisol
yes cortisol and estrogen i believe. His product mitolipin is basically saturated phosphatidylcholine and has the exact same effect but is far from cost effective
 

Andman

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yes cortisol and estrogen i believe. His product mitolipin is basically saturated phosphatidylcholine and has the exact same effect but is far from cost effective

do you remember the mitolipin dose you used to get that effect? its quite high in vitamin E too btw
 

Waremu

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The milk is good at supplying calcium obviously, and obviously good to consume around resistance exercise. And good amino acid composition, for that purpose.

However, some people like me, have never been able to lose weight while consuming casein. For unclear reasons. (For anyone for whom milk seems to stall weight loss: don't bang your head against a wall) And yes with gelatin, glycine, etc.

And it's clear that forced systemic IGF-1 increase from dairy is only good for muscle building, a bit, while growth hormone (+ its accompanying IGF-1) would be much more efficient at weight loss in general, exploited properly. Casein is naturally designed for a specific purpose, and that was never weight loss, so it's natural to expect it might not be ideal for other circumstances.

The choline thing is a given, it is not necessarily about gaining weight, but that it might unexpectedly temporarily work against weight loss.

[The other things I would say I agree, with these kinds of disclaimers attached]

One of choline’s roles is to facilitate transport of triglycerides (TG) out of the liver. When this doesn’t happen because of choline deficiency, build-up of the TGs causes apoptosis (cell death) and subsequent leakage of cellular contents, which in turn causes an increase in liver enzymes (GGT, AST, ALT, and CPK) into the liver and subsequent bloodstream. Rises in these liver enzymes may be one of the first indicators that there is some degree of fatty liver, especially with ALT (alanine aminotransferase). Now it appears that you’re worried about such small amounts of fat being incorporated into others tissues from the liver. If that’s the case, I wouldn’t be worried because there would likely be increased turnover from the caloric deficit itself (and this can come from increased LBM or metabolic rate). The liver also releases fat via the urine.
 
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ddjd

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do you remember the mitolipin dose you used to get that effect? its quite high in vitamin E too btw
no its all anecdoatal from other members using mitolipin in this forum but also in the ray peat inspired facebook page
 

ddjd

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Yes, but I am not worried about it working against weight loss for the said reasons. One of choline’s roles is to facilitate transport of triglycerides (TG) out of the liver. When this doesn’t happen because of choline deficiency, build-up of the TGs causes apoptosis (cell death) and subsequent leakage of cellular contents, which in turn causes an increase in AST, ALT, and CPK into the liver and subsequent bloodstream. Rises in these liver enzymes may be one of the first indicators that there is some degree of fatty liver, especially with ALT (alanine aminotransferase). Now it appears that you’re worried about such small amounts of fat being incorporated into others tissues from the liver. If that’s the case, I wouldn’t be worried because there would likely be increased turnover from the caloric deficit itself (and this can come from increased LBM or metabolic rate).
i thought GGT was the main identifyer of fatty liver "If your GGT level is greater than 30, you have a 95 percent chance of having fatty liver."
 

Waremu

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i thought GGT was the main identifyer of fatty liver "If your GGT level is greater than 30, you have a 95 percent chance of having fatty liver."

Yes. GGT as well, a the main one. Thought I added that in. However, higher enzymes may be an indicator of early onset of such or other liver problems as well.
 
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JustAGuy

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You should try measuring everything you eat and testing whatever works best for you, constantly adjusting and comparing.
What I mean by this is, to your experience, what foods give you the most energy per calorie.
I personally experience more energy out of 100 calories of carbs than 500 calories of fats.
For me the most energy giving foods per calorie are nutrient dense carbohydrates. (Grains).
Fruit does not give me nearly as much energy as more dense carb sources like bread/cereal/pasta/rice/etc.
Now, after finding the best foods for my body, I am able to maintain a low bodyfat percentage (7-8%) while having energy.
 

Terma

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Yes, but I am not worried about it working against weight loss for the said reasons. One of choline’s roles is to facilitate transport of triglycerides (TG) out of the liver. When this doesn’t happen because of choline deficiency, build-up of the TGs causes apoptosis (cell death) and subsequent leakage of cellular contents, which in turn causes an increase in AST, ALT, and CPK into the liver and subsequent bloodstream. Rises in these liver enzymes may be one of the first indicators that there is some degree of fatty liver, especially with ALT (alanine aminotransferase). Now it appears that you’re worried about such small amounts of fat being incorporated into others tissues from the liver. If that’s the case, I wouldn’t be worried because there would likely be increased turnover from the caloric deficit itself (and this can come from increased LBM or metabolic rate).
It's precisely the process of de-fattening the liver through exporting trigs and VLDL, because it delegates the oxidation burden to another tissue. If those tissues aren't healthy enough yet, or the wrong tissue picks it up (obese WAT instead of insulin-sensitive muscle), it will just accumulate there instead, for a short while or until the tissue or distribution/uptake improves.

If you consider that obesity visibly manifests as and can directly (if not mostly) be caused by tissue energy partitioning issues, this makes even more sense.

It could also lead to beneficial outcomes if the extra fat is delivered to insulin-sensitive muscle tissue that wasn't being properly fueled before for whatever reason, which also nets weight gain (which then brings up the whole issue of measuring lean tissue gains vs fat loss - use something else like waist size instead of lbs - however this is then distorted again by water retention changes; this never ends).

You can spot a slight weight gain effect in some studies, last one I saw by pure accident:
Adverse Signaling of Scavenger Receptor Class B1 and PGC1s in Alcoholic Hepatosteatosis and Steatohepatitis and Protection by Betaine in Rat
More important, our new finding of the ability of betaine to prevent these hepatosteatotic actions of chronic alcohol by considerably down-regulating PGC-1β and lipogenic genes and up-regulating PGC-1α and lipid-oxidizing genes accounts for the near-normal hepatic lipid score found in betaine-fed rats (Figure 1), despite feeding a high PUFA diet. This is also reflected in parallel reciprocal changes in serum adiponectin (Figure 2), accompanied by marginal body weight gain of the betaine-fed group compared with the ethanol group alone or even the control group (data not shown).
(Though betaine is not 100% the same as choline even in the respect of fat export and its downstream effects, it's probably close enough proxy for this, and I'm sure nobody was looking into that difference in this thread)
 

Terma

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(Not to mention, tissue energy partitioning is precisely the reason for wanting some growth hormone, and I shouldn't have to mention for placing so much focus on resistance exercise)
 

Terma

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@Waremu
FYI I was replying more specifically to your original message before you edited it (and then when I noticed I just re-quoted it and said **** it). I edit my messages way too much too.
 

Terma

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(Let's quadruple-post, because why the **** not)
This is getting a little off-topic, but I have to clarify the study I posted above doesn't at all deal with lipoproteins, and as such the weight gain effect is not addressed properly (maybe why they omitted the data), it's not worth reading through. So that remark has to be considered in the context of other studies, such as this one:
Betaine administration corrects ethanol-induced defective VLDL secretion
You'll want to know this part:
One such important transmethylation enzyme is PEMT, which catalyzes the generation of PC from PE. This alternative to the CDP-choline pathway is quantitatively significant only in the liver [ 7 ] and is responsible for the synthesis of more diverse PC molecules comprising of significantly more long chain, polyunsaturated species [ 8 ] that are preferentially used in the production of VLDL particles [ 2 ].
This is what I meant above concerning a difference between choline and betaine, but choline also transforms into betaine and if CDP-choline pathway (Kennedy) is underperforming or can't keep up then PEMT will ramp up (PEMT is especially productive during nutrient insufficiency and pregnancy). Meaning, most likely in that clearance period, the liver's pushing out its accumulated PUFAs for the other tissues to deal with, to oxidize or suffer their peroxidation. It's almost like getting pregnant.
(The liver will burn a proportion of them itself, but you antagonize that by consuming fructose, which I don't really intend to demonize here)
 

dmoon

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To go back to your original topic -- weight loss without calorie restriction. There have been several studies showing that the "when" matters quite a bit on eating. In a nutshell, eating earlier in the day and restricting to a certain number of hours - e.g. a 10-12 hour eating window - works with your circadian gene expression.

Couple of studies (there are many more!):
Circadian Timing of Food Intake Contributes to Weight Gain - Circadian Timing of Food Intake Contributes to Weight Gain - mouse study that showed the same number of calories consumed during the inactive period (daytime for mice) led to increased fat mass compared to mice eating the same during their active period.
Circadian and Metabolic Effects of Light: Implications in Weight Homeostasis and Health - Circadian and Metabolic Effects of Light: Implications in Weight Homeostasis and Health - good overview of the mechanisms at play and the human conditions
Time‐restricted feeding for prevention and treatment of cardiometabolic disorders - Time‐restricted feeding for prevention and treatment of cardiometabolic disorders -- overview of some of the human studies on the topic of time restricted feeding.

n=1
I've tried every way of eating out there and gave up on dieting a few years ago to focus on just being healthy. I felt great, mentally was great, but didn't lose any weight. Last fall I bought some blue-blocking glasses to wear in the evening (helps with melatonin production, circadian rhythm). Then in December or so I started eating dinner early (around 5:30) and didn't eat anything after dinner (for the most part... not perfect there!). Anyway, this has lead to dropping 20 lbs over about 8-9 months. No eating changes in the amount of food or type of food - just the timing. And no, this wasn't fast -- or really even something that I knew was happening for the first few months.

The more studies that I read on the impact of circadian gene expression on our chronic health, the more convinced I am that what we eat doesn't matter as much as getting the circadian aspects right. Artificial light at night - specifically blue light (~480nm) from TV, Computer, CFL/LED bulbs - messes with our circadian rhythm. For however many thousands of years we humans have walked the earth, it has been dark at night and light during the day. People have thrived in different climates and on different diets, but we are now messing with something even more basic when it comes to screwing up our circadian rhythm with blue light at night and not enough sunlight during the day. We have a core circadian clock set by the oscillation of the transcription and translation of a couple of pairs of genes (CLOCK/BMAL1 and CRY/PER). That clock is then entrained by light hitting the melanopsin containing photo receptors in our retina. Food intake then also acts on genes that rise and fall in the liver, and timing the food so that everything is in sync is the way we were intended to eat.
 
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Ron J

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Thanks everyone. I decided to lower fat to 10%(most of it in one meal for fat soluble vitamin absorption). And I'll try phosphatidylcholine. What dose would you recommend @Joeyd ?
 

Hans

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For dropping fat without calorie restriction you can consider a few things, most of what has already been mentioned:
  1. Go very low fat, as low as possible
  2. Try to move more, be more active where you can
  3. Get proper sleep
  4. Keep cortisol, estrogen and serotonin as low as possible
  5. Eat and live according to your circadian rhythm. More carbs in the morning and less at night. Adipose tissue is more insulin sensitive at night and insulin inhibits lipolysis more potently later in the day.
  6. Consider using uncouplers, as they will increase energy expenditure via thermogenesis.
  7. For some people it helps to eat more protein and for others it help to restrict protein. Experiment to find your sweet spot. Eating to taste and according to your activity level could be a good start.
  8. Keep the gut clean and eat easy digestible foods
  9. Even if you don't want to be in a caloric deficit, it would still be best to count your calories so that you don't eat in a caloric excess
  10. Stay away from big doses niacinamide, aspirin, vitamin E, etc., things that inhibit lipolysis
  11. Use things that speed up metabolism, such as caffeine, but obviously don't overdo it just for the sake of boosting metabolism.
Experimentation is always key to finding what works for you.
 

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