I'm Done Looking For A Method To Lower Body Fat Without Caloric Restriction

[fradon]

Currently my fat intake is 17.4%. If lower carbs doesn't work, I'll lower fat to 10%. When I was no-fat, I maintained my weight even with high calories, but I'd like to maximize the fat solubles. Although taurine helps, MK4 without fat might be a waste of money, unless I go the dermal route.
@Joeyd I've been eating several eggs a day, I assume that's enough choline.

get fat down to 10% then up plant based carbs avoid grains, this will keep insulin low and keep fat burning high. the moment you spike insulin then you get fluid retention and then you add on weight.

10% fat is still enough to absorb vitamins

 

[Peat Tong]

If you've got a defective PEMT gene like i have, you can't convert the choline into the phosphatidylcholine that you need to reverse fatty liver. Just as a test, try taking a capsule of phosphatidylcholine. Five minutes after ive taken it my stomach shrinks from bloated to completely flat. its amazing.

Joeyd, this reminded me of your post about bioavailable phosphatidylcholine supplements -- BodyBio, American Lecithin, and Essentiale Forte®. What phosphatidylcholine gives you the flat abs?

 

[ddjd]

Joeyd, this reminded me of your post about bioavailable phosphatidylcholine supplements -- BodyBio, American Lecithin, and Essentiale Forte®. What phosphatidylcholine gives you the flat abs?

im using one from seeking health just because i got a special offer. But i think now foods non-gmo sunflower lecithin capsules are basically the same thing for 1/4 of the price. And i know everyone is going to scream about sunflower and PUFA etc. but at this point, I'm starting to realise that peat's blanket approaches which basically say anticholinergics are good for everyone, its bollocks. I have been taking substances like cyproheptadine, benadryl for years based on that advice, not realising my liver was getting increasingly fattier, my body as a whole more and more estrogenic, gynocomastia etc. simply because i was depleting my already ridiculously tanked choline levels. Choline is so important for the liver. People like me really with this PEMT polymorphism really need supplemental phosphatidylcholine. Unfortunately theres absolutely no affordable saturated PC on the market, if there was i would take that. Even haidut admits that mitolipin is not taken for the choline because its such a low dose. And this seeking health phosphatidyl choline works.

I think in many ways peat doesn't really take into account that we're all so biologically different that in most situations you can't give "general" advice for what is good for people. We all need very specific tailored approaches based on our individual biochemistry.

sorry that was bit of a rant

 

[Peat Tong]

if Sunflower lecithin concentrates help you with your polymorphism, that disproves that claim from an extracted phosphatidylcholine supplement maker that you can't get bioavailable phospholipids from a lecithin supplement. Or it's just the choline that's helping the abs, and your phosphatydylcholine is still low.

 

[Ron J]

If you've got a defective PEMT gene like i have, you can't convert the choline into the phosphatidylcholine that you need to reverse fatty liver. Just as a test, try taking a capsule of phosphatidylcholine. Five minutes after ive taken it my stomach shrinks from bloated to completely flat. its amazing.

What do you mean by "bloated"? As in something similar to a beer belly? Or under the skin? My stomach seems flat, even with the weight gain, but I may try phosphatidylcholine. Do you have any specific brand that you've used with success?

 

[ddjd]

if Sunflower lecithin concentrates help you with your polymorphism, that disproves that claim from an extracted phosphatidylcholine supplement maker that you can't get bioavailable phospholipids from a lecithin supplement. Or it's just the choline that's helping the abs, and your phosphatydylcholine is still low.

i'm using this product, its phosphatidylcholine. https://www.seekinghealth.com/optimal-pc-100-softgels

I still don't know about the validity of that claim from BodyBio PC

 

[Peat Tong]

I see that Swanson has an egg yolk lecithin.

 

[Waremu]

choline. very anti-peat but choline is so important for reversing fatty liver. only the right approach for some people however. I myself am naturally very low in choline so i have to supplement otherwise fatty liver and weight gain is a real issue

Why would Choline be ‘anti-peat’?

Do you mean choline supplementation? I could see that being an issue due to additives/fillers in the supplements, but if you’re getting more choline from taking extra choline containing food then I don’t see how it would be anti-Peat or a bad thing in general. But nevertheless, I agree with you here that choline is quite important. Many people here may not be aware of this, but skim milk actually is a decent source of choline as long as you’re have a high milk diet. One cup yields about 38-40 mcg of choline from all the sources I have seen. I try to stick to at least 500 grams per day of choline (Chris Masterjohn also recommends this range).

1 egg and 12 cups of skim milk yields well over 500 mcg of choline. This I like because it allows me to get a lot of choline without adding a lot of PUFA (which won’t be the case if someone is eating mostly eggs for their choline on top of their normal diet). At least this is for those who are trying to stay very low PUFA (less than 2-2.5 grams for me). 500 mcg of choline, zinc containing foods with each meal (including oysters every day or other day), coffee, and plenty of high biotin and folate food sources (like fresh orange juice), an some vitamin k2, and 5 grams Creatine all have changed my life for the better, turning thing again around. While staying low fat too.

 

[ddjd]

Why would Choline be ‘anti-peat’?

Do you mean choline supplementation? I could see that being an issue due to additives/fillers in the supplements, but if you’re getting more choline from taking extra choline containing food then I don’t see how it would be anti-Peat or a bad thing in general. But nevertheless, I agree with you here that choline is quite important. Many people here may not be aware of this, but skim milk actually is a decent source of choline as long as you’re have a high milk diet. One cup yields about 38-40 mcg of choline from all the sources I have seen. I try to stick to at least 500 grams per day of choline (Chris Masterjohn also recommends this range).

1 egg and 12 cups of skim milk yields well over 500 mcg of choline. This I like because it allows me to get a lot of choline without adding a lot of PUFA (which won’t be the case if someone is eating mostly eggs for their choline on top of their normal diet). At least this is for those who are trying to stay very low PUFA (less than 2-2.5 grams for me). 500 mcg of choline, zinc containing foods including oysters every day other day, coffee, and plenty of high biotin and folate food sources (like fresh orange juice), an some vitamin k2, and 5 grams Creatine all have changed my life for the better, turning thing again around. While staying low fat too.

from haidut:
"Ray has written about the dangers of choline and its close relationship with estrogen. The histamine and acetylcholine receptors are perhaps the two main systems through which estrogen negatively affects the systemic health of the organism. As such, antihistamine and antocholinergic drugs can help block the effects of estrogen. Peat has even written separate articles on both systems and their role in disease, as well as the failure of choline and cholinergic drugs in treating brain conditions like Alzheimer and other dementias."
https://raypeatforum.com/community/...k-of-blood-clots-aspirin-to-the-rescue.16927/

 

[Waremu]

from haidut:
"Ray has written about the dangers of choline and its close relationship with estrogen. The histamine and acetylcholine receptors are perhaps the two main systems through which estrogen negatively affects the systemic health of the organism. As such, antihistamine and antocholinergic drugs can help block the effects of estrogen. Peat has even written separate articles on both systems and their role in disease, as well as the failure of choline and cholinergic drugs in treating brain conditions like Alzheimer and other dementias."
https://raypeatforum.com/community/...k-of-blood-clots-aspirin-to-the-rescue.16927/

Ray must be talking about mega doses of choline and “cholinergic drugs” then, because like it or not, with the amount of milk he and most of us strict ‘Peaterians’ consume, most of us are easily hitting the 500 mcg+ mark per day. And this probably isn’t an issue if we have an overall ‘anti-estrogen’ focused diet in place, etc. I think Dr. Chris Masterjohn makes some solid points about choline Peat doesn’t seem to really mention as much as well.

 

[ddjd]

Ray must be talking about mega doses of choline and “cholinergic drugs” then, because like it or not, with the amount of milk he and most of us strict ‘Peaterians’ consume, most of us are easily hitting the 500 mcg+ mark per day.

i don't think its safe for him to promote anticholinergics as much as he does. I think its just as bad to have choline too low from regular use of these "beneficial" substances.

 

[Waremu]

i don't think its safe for him to promote anticholinergics as much as he does. I think its just as bad to have choline too low from regular use of these "beneficial" substances.

Yeah, I think keeping it low can be an issue, particularly more so for those with MTHFR. Perhaps those who don’t have MTHFR can get by with half that amount of choline and getting the other half in beataine and folate. But being strict Peat since 2012, I didn’t notice any real improvements until my stored PUFA got low and I got enough choline, zinc, and the other things mentioned in the diet daily. And it’s very noticeable. More than a day of running low on one of those things especially choline and I notice it with sleep issues, stress response, anxiety, etc. Perhaps I might have MTHFR as well to some extent. I’ll have to get that checked soon. Perhaps I have the ideal synergistic amounts of nutrients down to the level that is ideal for me. And even with 500mcg choline, I still have to get enough folate on top od that (which leads me to think I may have a MTHFR issue).

 

[ddjd]

Yeah, I think keeping it low can be an issue, particularly more so for those with MTHFR. Perhaps those who don’t have MTHFR can get by with half that amount of choline and getting the other half in beataine and folate. But being strict Peat since 2012, I didn’t notice any real improvements until my stored PUFA got low and I got enough choline, zinc, and the other things mentioned in the diet daily. And it’s very noticeable. More than a day of running low on one of those things especially choline and I notice it with sleep issues, stress response, anxiety, etc. Perhaps I might have MTHFR as well to some extent. I’ll have to get that checked soon. Perhaps I have the ideal synergistic amounts of nutrients down to the level that is ideal for me.

whats your approach for keeping PUFA consistently low? even eggs have a fair bit of pufa

 

[Waremu]

whats your approach for keeping PUFA consistently low? even eggs have a fair bit of pufa

A diet mainly of gelatin, skim milk, and 1 egg per day. On rare occasions two eggs. But no more than 2.

1 egg, 12 cups skim milk, 4 servings gelatin packets, orange juice, dates, pine apple juice, and coffee and oysters pretty much give me all the zinc/selenium/copper, choline, folate, biotin, and b vitamins in general that I need while staying at 2 grams or under 2 grams of PUFA. One egg and 12 cups of skim milk alone is about 1.9 grams PUFA and the fruit juice and sugar barely adds extra to that.

 

[ddjd]

A diet mainly of gelatin, skim milk, and 1 egg per day. On rare occasions two eggs. But no more than 2.

1 egg, 12 cups skim milk, 4 servings gelatin packets, orange juice, dates, pine apple juice, and coffee and oysters pretty much give me all the zinc/selenium/copper, choline, folate, biotin, and b vitamins in general that I need while staying at 2 grams or under 2 grams of PUFA. One egg and 12 cups of skim milk alone is about 1.9 grams PUFA and the fruit juice and sugar barely adds extra to that.

which brand of gelatine do you use?

 

[Waremu]

which brand of gelatine do you use?

For now I use knox. Probably not the best, but is very cheap and convenient at my local store so eventually I will move to a better brand. But when I do order online it is usually this one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01M4P5L9A/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_10?smid=A26B54CBXCH8II&psc=1

Still looking around for anything better as well.

 

[ddjd]

For now I use knox. Probably not the best, but is very cheap and convenient at my local store so eventually I will move to a better brand. But when I do order online it is usually this one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01M4P5L9A/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_10?smid=A26B54CBXCH8II&psc=1

Still looking around for anything better as well.

im experimenting with Now foods brand, seems good. Interesting that you use Gelatine as your main source of protein, so not much methionine then?

 

[Waremu]

im experimenting with Now foods brand, seems good. Interesting that you use Gelatine as your main source of protein, so not much methionine then?

About 25-30% of my protein intake is gelatin. The rest is skimmed raw milk, and a raw or lightly boiled egg and a couple freshly steamed oysters. Sometimes my gelatin percentage will go as high as 40%+, but I try to get it at 25-30% baseline. I try to keep glutathione high, so the main things which I have found to be useful for that via my research drives me to:

Get at least 24 mg (2.4 g) of the sulfur amino acids methionine and cystine per day, but not much more.

Get 1-1.2 (no less than 0.5) gram at least of protein per KG of body weight.

Get one 0.5-1 grams glycine for every gram of methionine.

Not to go much over 2.4-3 grams methionine per day.

Get enough of the B vitamins/choline/folate, and especially zinc.

Enough cysteine and methionine for glutathione production, but not so much that it offsets the benefits of the glycine. The methionine at that amount won't use up all the glycine and I likely have it high enough for the longevity benefits. I often hear people mention low methionine/cystine for possibly some of the longevity benefits, but the problem is, not enough sulfur amino acids negatively affect glutathione production/methylation. So I prefer to have just enough methionine/sulfur amino acids where it's considered on a lower end, low enough to sustain longevity benefits, and high enough to sustain glutathione production, but not so high to have the possibly more negative outcomes that comes with a high sulfur amino acid intake + plenty of gelatin to offset any negative spillover of cystine/methionine, rather than just very little methionine/cystine. Consuming this upper lower range of methionine/cystine while adding the said amount of glycine is likely equal to a very low methionine/cystine diet, without the negative drawbacks, like decreased glutathione production (which we want to maximize especially the older we get if we want to0 age more gracefully).

 

[Terma]

Some good suggestions, but above all you have to modulate protein intake, even more so within restricted calories.

This is not advertised much, but keep in mind the fastest weight loss of low-carb was with high fat moderate protein, and tiny protein for Kempner high-carb.

Not saying you should low protein, but too much leucine or methionine is counterproductive for obese individuals. So it's critical to "invest" your protein intake - time-wise - into resistance exercise to build muscle to then help you lose weight. If it's not put to this specific use, it may work against you. This is also a time where glycine is most helpful.

Granted, this can be risky to gauge, since undershooting leads to lean tissue loss. But doesn't stop it being true.

Kinda goes without saying you need enough thyroid and to keep cortisol low. However in my opinion, you may have to consider more dietary/lifestyle strategies that don't specifically impede or even promote the production of growth hormone or norepinephrine (while you're trying to lower cortisol), because together with thyroid these shed the fat.

I haven't specifically tried this, but one of the suggestions above is to combine liver and coffee. From what I know, that makes sense. With the calcium too, although not sure milk is the best in this context.

The fatty liver thing, although choline is important in several ways for this, keep in mind if you fix fatty liver that way, you may temporarily gain a little weight (usually not gigantic amounts, but) since most of the fat gets exported and incorporated in other tissues when not burned off/compensated. So that can be misleading.

 

[Waremu]

Some good suggestions, but above all you have to modulate protein intake, even more so within restricted calories.

This is not advertised much, but keep in mind the fastest weight loss of low-carb was with high fat moderate protein, and tiny protein for Kempner high-carb.

Not saying you should low protein, but too much leucine or methionine is counterproductive for obese individuals. So it's critical to "invest" your protein intake - time-wise - into resistance exercise to build muscle to then help you lose weight. If it's not put to this specific use, it may work against you. This is also a time where glycine is most helpful.

Granted, this can be risky to gauge, since undershooting leads to lean tissue loss. But doesn't stop it being true.

Kinda goes without saying you need enough thyroid and to keep cortisol low. However in my opinion, you may have to consider more dietary/lifestyle strategies that don't specifically impede or even promote the production of growth hormone or norepinephrine (while you're trying to lower cortisol), because together with thyroid these shed the fat.

I haven't specifically tried this, but one of the suggestions above is to combine liver and coffee. From what I know, that makes sense. With the calcium too, although not sure milk is the best in this context.

The fatty liver thing, although choline is important in several ways for this, keep in mind if you fix fatty liver that way, you may temporarily gain a little weight (usually not gigantic amounts, but) since most of the fat gets exported and incorporated in other tissues when not burned off/compensated. So that can be misleading.

In my experience, moderate protein is fine. If you're eating moderate or higher protein and 30-45% of that is already gelatin then I think one will be fine. Then keep fat at 10% or below, and keep carbs higher while having a slight caloric deficit. Too low protein while losing weight will usually result in more muscle loss than if more protein was consumed, in my experience and the research I have seen. If you're in a caloric deficit, chances are fat will be used as energy regardless. I highly doubt choline will make one gain much if any fat weight in a caloric deficit because, as we know with the law of thermodynamics, for energy to be stored, it must first be consumed in excess. A caloric deficit in of itself (especially with low dietary fat) should force liver fat to be burned. Also caffeine and Vitamin k2 can help heal the liver as well. The leanest I have got was low fat moderate/higher protein, higher carb, starch-free, with skimmed milk being the main protein source. This has been the experience of many others on this forum as well. I as well as many others keep finding that this is what has worked best for us when wanting to get very lean especially. Calcium in milk also will likely help the fat-loss process as well. I think the type of protein consumed is more important than total protein consumed. With milk and glycine mixed at each or most meals especially, you have a very favorable amino acid ratio that shouldn't lead to the stress response one would have from eating a lot of red meat or egg whites.