If You Don't Want Low Testosterone DO NOT FAST

[cyclops]

My fasting schedule usually consisted of black coffee on an empty stomach, which made me feel like crap. But you have to ignore feeling like crap. It is part of the process!!!!!!!!! That was sarcasm. Feeling like crap tells you everything you need to know.

How long and how often were you fasting for though? Were you an intermittent faster of sorts who just skipped breakfast everyday? Did you fast entire days? Longer fasts, etc?

 

[Ledo]

I think that in a large part of our population, you have such terrific gut irritation that essentially any input will result in a stress response - or more specifically movement towards a chronically adapted stress state. This must be addressed. Serious restriction of food is one way to deal with this, and I've found it fantastically effective. I think you can rationalize and reason away the benefits using whatever logic you'd like, but I think that submitting yourself to a system that is founded in incomplete knowledge and lack of experiment is extraordinarily dangerous.

Regarding androgen receptors - I think it's very important to distinguish between membrane (GPCR type) and nuclear receptors in this class, which is the estrogen receptor family. Membrane type receptors can increase in density in a hyper-androgenic environment. Not so much for nuclear receptors. It's important to note that the opposite situation can also be true depending on the reductive environment of the cell.

The environments controlling the density of these receptors is extremely convoluted and anyone claiming to have bottom line knowledge is probably misinformed. Besides, the receptors are not the bottom line anyway - the effect in the cell (and the entire organism) is what you're looking for, and it requires a lot more input than just receptor density.

We should also distinguish the types of fasting we're talking about here. I think it makes sense to figure out what works for you. I go long periods without eating much solid food and I've had no trouble whatsoever gaining significant muscle and strength - moreso than in any period in my life.



"If what you are doing isn't working, maybe you should evaluate the way you think about everything"

Good post. One result of Gbold showing up is I will never spend much time justifying what I do health improvement-wise on these science and God forsaken studies, what a royal waste of time. The system is way to complex and one life to short to make any headway using studies as a basis for action.

In a few paragraphs you just introduced information I was totally unaware of which totally changes the context of the OP's message.

In the end there are really only a few things, handles, buttons, switches, controls that we as humans can use to help ourselves. Spending time on the agenda of the study proponents and their mad dance is not one of them.

 

[gbolduev]

My fasting schedule usually consisted of black coffee on an empty stomach, which made me feel like crap. But you have to ignore feeling like crap. It is part of the process!!!!!!!!! That was sarcasm. Feeling like crap tells you everything you need to know.

For a while, i would eat almonds, peanut butter and other PUFAS, cook a lot with olive oil. Nothing absolutely terrible, but i was not doing myself any favors. I have been low PUFA for about a year, and feel better every day. I have somewhat low cortisol is really my only "issue" and i don't consider it to be that big of a problem.

I am a huge believer in OJ, good fruit, naked casein protein, potatoes, mushrooms, grass fed beef or lamb, mexican cokes and coffee with milk and sugar. Generally the more i eat the better i feel as i never really eat past being full.

fast oxidizer fasting on coffee? LOL lethal combo. how old are you ?

 

[TubZy]

This is why I want to see a picture of Gbol. I just wanna know if he be looking good.

To be fair, I want to see a picture of Haidut too lol. That is why I said Haidut Vs Gbol via Skype debate..they are also very close in age

 

[TubZy]

+1

What sort of health? Able to store glycogene? The more I have eaten fruits and dry fruits and honey, the more I have had to eat often.
What motivated me was to have a diet sparing a lot of cooking time!

Depending if you did it right when you went out, and if it was adapted to you... But I am interested to know more about the sort of liver health NEEDED before fasting, or if there is a way to fast properly, in order to avoid this sort of side-effect.
Thanks all!

Can you or anyone show the study on fasting and liver health? I would like to see it, if it just an increase in liver enzymes I would assume that is from the detox effect of releasing PUFA and toxins (autophagy) which would be temporary

 

[cyclops]

To be fair, I want to see a picture of Haidut too lol. That is why I said Haidut Vs Gbol via Skype debate..they are also very close in age

True. I wanna see Haidut too.

 

[TubZy]

I experienced the setting is extremly important. Fasting on stressfull work days or longterm will deliver a complete different result then do it in a nice place/outdoor and have some easy walks ect.

Agreed and if you are used to massive amounts of carbs and sugar and don't exercise much going on a fast will be that much harder

 

[DuggaDugga]

I can check into the estrogen aspect but you need to also remember that estrogen is very suppressive of the HPTA so if estrogen was high it would negatively impact T levels when coming off (just like after a steroid cycle when estrogen is high and your T levels are low). From my personal view, I didn't have any estrogenic symptoms while fasting and I have never heard of anyone complain about estrogenic symptoms while or post fast. I felt extremely androgenic post fast.

After a couple days in ketones are released and your body will start eating up the fat stores.

That's a very reductionist view of the impact of fasting on metabolism.
Rather than explain it for the umpteenth time I would welcome you to go do your own research the role of cortisol mediating gluconeogensis, ketogensis, insulin resistance, adbominal fat deposition, muscle tissue catabolism. Would love to hear your thoughts on that, how it works into your view of the physiology of fasting/famine.

 

[DuggaDugga]

Reproductive function during fasting in men. - PubMed - NCBI

To investigate reproductive function during fasting, six men 20-74% over ideal body weight completed an 18-day study consisting of a 3-day control period, a 10-day total fast, and a 5-day refeeding period. All men lost at least 4.1% of total weight and demonstrated ketonemia and ketonuria. The FSH response to LRH (0.2 microgram/min for 4 h) stimulation was significantly lower (P less than 0.05) during fasting and remained so during refeeding. Serum FSH concentrations were significantly lower (P less than 0.05) during the fast in five of six patients compared to those during the control period, whereas serum LH concentrations were unchanged. The effects of fasting on endogenous LH and FSH pulsations were studied by obtaining serum at 20-min intervals for 6 h on days 2, 11, and 16. Neither the amplitude nor the frequency of LH and FSH pulsations changed significantly during fasting or refeeding. Serum testosterone concentrations were significantly lower (P less than 0.025) by fasting day 9 compared to control values. The 24-h urinary excretion of both LH and FSH increased significantly (P less than 0.05) by fasting day 6 and reached a maximum by fasting day 8. Urinary LH excretion did not return to normal after 3 days of refeeding, whereas urinary FSH excretion returned to baseline by the first day of refeeding. We conclude that during short term fasting in obese men: 1) serum FSH concentrations decrease, 2) the pituitary responsiveness of FSH and LRH is blunted, 3) serum testosterone decreases, and 4) the urinary excretion of both LH and FSH increase.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Sometimes I eat s**t ton of food in the morning and noon and sit around watching youtube all day like lazy bum. I feel like yeah why not skip a dinner I'm not hungry. If I eat dinner I feel like s**t like Fat Bastard from Austin Power. Some people call it intermittent fasting, but to me it's just skipping a meal and it's not that bad.

Yep, this is the one thing I really liked about intermittent fasting. I find that if I go on vacation, I often do something like this- two big meals, and maybe an extended period when I don't eat anything.

 

[TubZy]

Reproductive function during fasting in men. - PubMed - NCBI

Yes, in obese men which already have a poor hormone profile, poor insulin sensitivity and metabolic profile prior to even going into the fast. I wouldn't fast if I was obsese as you have many many other issues to get in order first.

From the study I showed earlier healthy and non obese men had a significant improvement in hormone profile with no issues.

 

[Ledo]

Oh, I don't claim to be right, and I have no agenda. I have no business model or pride attached to an on-line forum moniker, nothing for me to blindly defend in the face of contradictory opinion. Healthy debate is the medium by which we can all learn and better ourselves, me included. I do think some biological explanation is warranted when someones makes a point however, and often so much of the discussion on this forum is one side weighing their anecdote, an anecdote which I would never intend to invalidate but I also frankly have little interest in when the context of that individual's life is infinite beyond what can be communicated here.

If fasting worked for someone, that's great, I'm curious. Let's discuss why it was helpful, what was the mechanism, and why that couldn't be achieved in a healthier way using reasonable dietary changes that don't require stress.

No disrespect intended Dugga, I excluded you from having an agenda BTW. Yes, I feel there are paid trolls/minders in panic mode over this "threat" but your not one of them. I only picked point on your message because fasting is not all bad either just like anything Gbol says won't invalidate everything Peat says.

Fwiw, I water fasted for 7 days when I was much younger, intended to go longer but had to stop. I was getting torn up and broke out in nasty face shingle infection (WTF moment) I didn't know I had. I have a friend who has been twice a year fasting for 25 years since we were in high school together, he may look the best out of all the guys from HS we still see. It may be as Peat says, he was healthy so could fast, I had latent infections ala Jamanet that caught up with me a few years ago. Fasting was supposed to correct that but I couldn't make it work. I also did poorly on intermittent fasting when I did Paul's PHD diet. I was dawn to jamanet based on his three causes of disease, mal nutrition, toxins, infections. His carb requirement saved me, (starch based glucose) and then I improved more under Peat fructose. But now I have run into problems Gbol predicts with peat. Jamanet says fructose is going to feed infection so maybe that is what happened.

 

[haidut]

True. I wanna see Haidut too.

Fine, I will find a recent picture in a suit but I don't look nearly as handsome as @Jsaute21 . Dude is a model

 

[tca300]

After reading that fasting is not for fast oxydizers.... and that those people can usually be recognize as the ones with a strong drive to go and act, and need activity, work oout etc... and that those people are not only the ones who should not fast but the ones that will do the best on a RP diet.... then this does not surprise me at all

and you all do good on RP diet?

1st hand experiences are great, and then we have to know why these experiences are different - may be a different type of person?


Instead of "do not fast!" I'd rather ask "who can fast?"
and then HOW.
Bad result = either you should not fast OR you did something wrong. For example it seems that going out of a fast with fruits can ruin it. When I did a fast, I spit out the piece of fruit and had to find something else, and I could not understand why the fruit did not suit me!
Resolving inner stress is better with no such outside stress...

Right, typically this is not a good fast... and not called a fast.

That is not similar to fasting at all.
Fasting has to do with rythm. Life is rythm and movement. You fast for a reason, and then you refeed.
Fexxx told us about his good way to know when he needs to fast again.

Lol ok.

 

[Jsaute21]

How long and how often were you fasting for though? Were you an intermittent faster of sorts who just skipped breakfast everyday? Did you fast entire days? Longer fasts, etc?

I messed around with different variations for a while. I never fasted for an entire day but i would usually not eat until 11 AM or 12, when i was up at 6 every day. I felt like dog crap. Despite this, i would only eat 2-3x max a day as i was very temporarily into the idea that too many meals in a day destroys free testosterone. Embarassing to go back in time and relive these days of blind ignorance, and complete disregard for how i was feeling. Thank god for RP honestly.

 

[Jsaute21]

fast oxidizer fasting on coffee? LOL lethal combo. how old are you ?

Valid. I am 29 and i suppose i fit the definition of a fast oxidizer. I have always been lean and been someone who prefers carbs. Any time i cut carbs down, fast etc i feel like crap and libido goes bye bye.

 

[TubZy]

Smart people, athletic people, good looking people, whatever you may aspire to be do not fast. They don't. They are normal enough to wake up, feel a bit hungry and eat. They don't over think it. They aren't subconciously saying to themselves "I don't deserve to eat." Doing it once in a while is completely different, as i understand either being sick or very full one morning. Maybe you sleep in until noon, whatever. But fasting on a daily basis is bad news. I think one of the reasons Ray Peat's principles are so attractive, is that they are simple in nature. Micronutrients, carbohydrates, enough protein, etc. It all makes sense. I can also tell you right now that as a 29 year old man, i feel and look much better than i did 3 years ago. My sex drive is back. My six pack is back without really much maintenance, and i am much better at work. Ray Peat is smarter than the 25 year old bro with the fitness blog you are reading regarding fasting.

True but many great athletes do fast though not chronically (which I don't agree with). Easiest example would be wrestlers, MMA fighters, boxers etc. they have to make weight so they are constantly in a deprived state while even training at the same time from anywhere from weeks to months coming up towards a fight. I live with an ex wrestler and MMA fighter and the guy barely eats but is still very athletic.

 

[Jsaute21]

To be fair, I want to see a picture of Haidut too lol. That is why I said Haidut Vs Gbol via Skype debate..they are also very close in age

I regret showing a pic. I was just obliging to @cyclops wishes from @gbolduev. Looks have very little to do with knowledge of HPTA and endocrine function. That picture reveals more about my heritage than it does about my knowledge of healthy dietary habits. I will however say that i look much better now than i did while fasting. Looks, like everything else in life are relative.

 

[Jsaute21]

True but many great athletes do fast though not chronically (which I don't agree with). Easiest example would be wrestlers, MMA fighters, boxers etc. they have to make weight so they are constantly in a deprived state while s even training at the same time from anywhere from weeks to months coming up towards a fight. Iive with an ex wrestler and MMA fighter and the guy barely eats but is still very athletic.

I'm sure there are exceptions much like you said. I doubt your friend can sustain that lifestyle for an extended period of time without the use of performance enhancing drugs. It will mess up his metabolism if he is under fed and not eating while he is hungry, just a matter of time. Hopefully he overfeeds when not training for a specific fight.

I would also estimate that the percentage of athletes that do not fast versus that do is close to 99% or so in favor of those that do not fast. You think Usain Bolt relies on lipolysis before a 100 meter sprint? How about Lebron before a finals game? Maybe Deion Sanders before guarding Jerry Rice? Hell no. If you notice, most fat adapted people look kind of like crap. I do not mean that offensively. They have that Dave Asprey type of look. Very unanaerobic and flat. They almost always recommend taking a ton of supplements, superfoods and all that garbage. I've been there and done that. Never going back and feel strongly about it.

 

[Jsaute21]

Fine, I will find a recent picture in a suit but I don't look nearly as handsome as @Jsaute21 . Dude is a model

Doubt that. Also find it funny how people doubt @haidut's methods even though he clearly operates at a high function. Guy has a full time demanding job and still reads and interprets more studies than all of us combined. He has proven his hormones are favorable and has helped many folks such as @tyler and others greatly improve their own health and metabolism.

I encourage @cyclops and others to use common sense when analyzing who to trust on this forum. @tca300 is another good example of someone who follows a similar RP protocol and has yielded impressive results. @lisaferraro is another one. I could go on and on. I think many folks on here think they are unique in how deformed their metabolism is, and i bet that is not the case. It takes time to heal, and IMO fasting is one of the worst things you can do to interrupt that healing process. Eat micronutrient rich, and eat when you are hungry or feel low blood sugar. The amount of carbs and fat both seem to depend on the person.

Danny Roddy took finasteride, TRT and messed himself up worse than probably anyone on here. Now he looks great, feels phenomenal and operates at a high function. Healing is possible! If you don't believe it can happen though, it won't.