If You Don't Want Low Testosterone DO NOT FAST

[Constatine]

Since we are talking about androgen sensitivity, @gbolduev seems to be right in this respect in terms of AFTER fasting your body responds extremely well and can re-sensitize it. I noticed this as well after a ten day water fast.

Look at the massive increase of T upon refeeding!

https://sci-hub.cc/https://academic...during-Fasting-in-Men?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Also if you just wanted pure T levels, here you go.

Pituitary-testicular axis in obese men during short-term fasting. - PubMed - NCBI.

Short-term fasting increased the GnRH-elicited LH response by 67% in the non-obese group (LH incremental areas 2147 +/- 304 vs 3581 +/- 256, p less than 0.01), and the corresponding testosterone response by 180% (testosterone incremental areas 111 +/- 61 vs 311 +/- 49 micrograms.l-1.min-1, p less than 0.01). These results imply that food deprivation affects the pituitary-testicular axis differently in obese and non-obese men.



Since this thread is about BBing....

Fasting enhances growth hormone secretion and amplifies the complex rhythms of growth hormone secretion in man.


If you want more studies on the benefits of short term fasting and its benefits for insulin sensitivity and immune function, let me know. BTW, I'm not 100% pro fasting, but I think an occasional water fast isn't as bad as some of you demonize it. I did a ten day water fast and my muscle is still fine but my muscles respond to carbs 20x better, so I don't get all the hype that you are losing muscle, majority of it water.

Its chronic fasting that ruins you.

 

[TubZy]

Its chronic fasting that ruins you.

Re-read the last two sentences I wrote in my last post.

And I'm addressing OP, reread his last sentence of his OP. I bolded it for you. I don't see the word chronic anywhere?

There is a particular user on this forum who had been proposing fasting as a way of "resetting the receptors".

The idea of course being that if you have low levels of a hormone you will experience an increased number of the proteins that the hormone interacts with. I am highly skeptical of this idea, and think it's dangerous advice. One area that this almost certainly isn't true in is the androgenic hormones.

As somebody who has spent a few years posting on bodybuilding/fitness forums I can tell you that when this comes to androgen this is absolutely not the case. When the good fellas over at the misc, getbig, anabolicminds, and steroidology forums look in to this topic they usually find the same, consistent results: the more androgens you have the more ARs you have.

This article perfectly sums up what you need to know.

In summary: Very high (bodybuilder doses) amounts of androgens increase the density of androgen receptors, without question. There have been some studies where going from zero to normal levels of testosterone have shown a decrease in androgen receptors, this could very well be because of estrogen (estrogen downregulates AR receptors itself).

The most important information is below:

-very high levels of testosterone/androgen increases AR density, this is almost 100% certain

-this has been confirmed in many actual humans (because there are many men who use steroids) and consistent increases in AR density is observed

-we have had very few chances to observe the effects of going from low to normal testosterone on male AR density, since lowering T so much would be bad for the subject's health

-given high level androgen use's effect on ARs it would seem likely that the decease in estrogen could explain the increase of ARs in extremely low testosterone environment

The idea that the decrease in testosterone seen in people who fast for long periods will be made up for by increased AR density rests on very little evidence, in fact the evidence points to receptors liking high testosterone, and proliferating in a high-androgen environment.

If you care about having optimal hormones DO NOT FAST.

 

[James IV]

Nevermind... Here is ice cream instead.

 

[cyclops]

The problem here seems to be that no one here appears to understand or appreciate balance. You all seem to assume fasting is some stringent protocol where you deny yourself food on a scheduled basis. Yeah, that can make you sick, but you have to be sick to think that way anyway.
Whereas the folks that are balanced sometimes just lay around all day and aren't hungry, or realize the only reason they want to eat is boredom. Or sometimes you are busy for a large portion of the day, or all day, and your hunger doesn't return until you are done with your work, or maybe even then next day. This is when fasting is appropriate because it is effortless.

The latter cases cause no harm, and are very healing, because you are in touch, and working with your instincts, and your body.

I'm sorry you all applied fasting poorly, and had bad experiences. But that doesn't make occasional appropriate fasting harmful. In my opinion, eating when you aren't hungry for fear of elevated "stress" hormones, is far more harmful than only eating when true hunger occurs.

I've heard Ray Peat say that it is bad to eat if you are not hungry. He gives specific reasons why. He says some people whose liver is healthy for instance can go long time without eating. Others need to eat every hour. I think this type of "fasting" where you don't eat on a rigid schedule, but instead eat when you're hungry, is exactly what Peat would advocate.

Basically, eat when your hungry. Follow your cravings. Listen to your body. This is all Peat. He just lets you know what foods are mostly likely the best and healthiest to pick from and which are really bad to avoid. Like make sure you're not using corn oil to cook your food.

He also says not to use supplements for the most part unless there is a particular reason for it, like a person is sick in some way. I just mention that, because I feel like people on the other thread have been making it seem like Peat recommends that all people should be taking certain vitamins and supplements when he doesn't.

 

[Regina]

over-exercising suppresses appetite. I think it is pretty easy to get into a state of chronic lipolysis.

 

[DaveFoster]

Due to insufficient dietary protein, the liver cannot detoxify estrogen while fasting.

 

[Constatine]

Re-read the last two sentences I wrote in my last post.

And I'm addressing OP, reread his last sentence of his OP. I bolded it for you. I don't see the word chronic anywhere?

o.

 

[AretnaP]

Re-read the last two sentences I wrote in my last post.

And I'm addressing OP, reread his last sentence of his OP. I bolded it for you. I don't see the word chronic anywhere?

Re-read my post.
"Long-term fasting" (wording I used in the OP) isn't the same as "chronic fasting"?

Also if you want real AR density increase the best method is to reduce estrogen or use steroids.

Fasting for more than a day or two won't do anything except nuke your hormones and make you want food.

 

[Jarman]

Right, I'm not implying one has to eat on the clock, to make "dinnertime". If you've eaten, haven't done much to re-develop your appetite, I wouldn't consider that fasting. Fasting- in my opinion- is when someone has an appetite and actively ignores it to lose weight, to "cleanse", to please some deity, or whatever else.

That's the point, though. We don't really have a definition of what fasting is. The term is thrown around a lot but we have different views of what it is and how it works. And like you said what mechanisms constitute as fasting?

IMO fasting is not eating on particular schedule. All fasting have clock management: 40 days fasting, fasting between sunrise and sunset, 24 hours fasting. All of them use time as the regulation. They never say stuff like hey you dont eat the entire buffet before fasting, mmkay? There's a huge Muslim community in city where I live so it's pretty common knowledge that they eat like pigs before dawn and after sunset. So by your definition they're not really fasting because they're not really hungry, no?

I agree though that it's not a lifestyle. It's like once a year ceremony kinda thing

 

[TubZy]

Re-read my post.
"Long-term fasting" (wording I used in the OP) isn't the same as "chronic fasting"?

Also if you want real AR density increase the best method is to reduce estrogen or use steroids.

Fasting for more than a day or two won't do anything except nuke your hormones and make you want food.

Not at all. Chronic fasting can be anything from intermittent fasting year round to just barely eating (1-2 meals a day like many people eat these days) for months at a time.

Long term fasting means water fasting for ten days straight or 14 days straight once or twice a year. You didn't clarify any numerical value or explain your context in the OP and ended your post with "DO NOT FAST".

Regarding hormones, did you even read any of the studies (or just look at a basic chart) I posted they were all longer than a "day or two" they were around 10-14 days.

Testosterone shot through the roof during refeed, it was significantly HIGHER than baseline so how is that "nuking your hormones"? Please explain your strong broscience coming from anabolic minds forum...

 

[TubZy]

o.

Wanted to debate not hurt feelings lol

 

[Westside PUFAs]

This article perfectly sums up what you need to know.

In summary: Very high (bodybuilder doses) amounts of androgens increase the density of androgen receptors, without question. There have been some studies where going from zero to normal levels of testosterone have shown a decrease in androgen receptors, this could very well be because of estrogen (estrogen downregulates AR receptors itself).

Your article says nothing about fasting at all.

As somebody who has spent a few years posting on bodybuilding/fitness forums I can tell you that when this comes to androgen this is absolutely not the case.

I know your focus here is on testosterone but I just want to say that most of the people who are interested in MSWOF (medically-superivesed water-only fasting) aren't concerned with testosterone. They are concerned with lowering their blood pressure, reversing insulin resistance, preventing cancer, reversing cancer and aesthetic things like more bright white parts of the eyes, clearing out the skin, reset taste buds, among other things that are related to long-term health. Bodybuilding types tend to not care about those things as many of them take steroids and crazy supplements and protein powders. I'm sure there are some natural BB that care but I'm not going to not do a fast because of what the bro BB broscience types say on BB forums.

Rob Turner, the Peat inspired gym owner, told me when I asked him about my testosterone level "testosterone is downstream. I'm not concerned with it. Focus on upstream.." Meaning focus on the starting point, not the ending, meaning focus on my own pregnenolone production. My T has always felt fine. I can give myself a huge shot of T from my own balls just by looking at a hot pair of legs in real life.

Unfortunately, this is one thing that I agree with gbold on but I only think it's good if you go by True North's protocol.

Medically Supervised Water-only Fasting In The Treatment Of Hypertension

Low Fat Diet/fasting Reverses 42 Yr Old Woman's Cancer, Published In British Medical Jounral

Evan Rock water-only fasts often. He doesn't appear to have low T and his skin looks great and he has some muscle for a lean guy, high T jawline:





Rob Stuart also does WOF (water-only fasts) and he appears to have high T:

 

[dookie]

I personally think that the issue of testosterone aromatizing into estrogen is overblown on this forum, with not enough emphasis placed on the importance of T in general.
It seems that there is a kind of positive feedback loop between T and dopamine synthesis in the brain. Many people, including myself, experience severe mental health issues as a direct result of low T, and this phenomenon seems to be ignored by the medical community at large, which is deeply disturbing. My endocrinologist seems to be clueless about this mechanism, despite the fact that there is legitimate medical literature on the subject.
There are many young men who have become depesonalized and suicidal, only to discover that they were suffering from low T, and their symptoms disappear after weeks to months of TRT. Search for "bignoknow" on YouTube. His story is harrowing and not at all unique.
@haidut has suggested that T is nothing more than a prohomone for DHT, and most people on TRT who benefit are just feeling the effects of a DHT increase. Well, that may be, but it seems to marginalize the importance of T, especially since I have not seen any evidence of DHT being particularly dopaminergic. Also, I believe haidut mentioned a study wherein men with total T levels under 400ng/dl had trouble conceiving children, and this is within the "normal" range.
There is a stigma regarding testosterone in the medical community, and I'm not sure where it stems from.

Months ago when I was reading information such as what you are writing, and watching youtube videos of people like "bignoknow", I got into my mind the idea of trying testosterone. I tried an extremely small amount of a testosterone gel (few mg), and had extreme side-effects, similar to drinking beer. Edema, restlessness, insomnia, emotionality... I have tried DHT too, in larger doses, and while it too has side-effects, they are gone in a few days. With testosterone, the side-effects just linger on. I think "TRT" is very dangerous. It has no place on a health forum, where people are looking for ways to recover from serious, degenerative diseases

 

[paymanz]

He's mentioned it in regards to animals in a positive light. Took me a while to find the quote because I was searching for the word "dog" when he actually says "animal"... I think I just assumed it was a dog or something.

"There have been studies in which rheumatoid arthritis and similar things just are completely relieved during a week-long fast but then it would come back as soon as the person eats again and that's partly because your cortisol increases tremendously when you're not eating. And what the cortisol is doing is converting your muscle tissue mostly into fuel to live on and at the same time it's having an anti-inflammatory effect but the bowel is really the basic cause of most of the degenerative inflammatory diseases, and so there is a tremendous good reason for thinking that fasting is therapeutic. And I've seen animals with huge tumors that just refuse to eat and if their owners just let them sit around not eating, they would recover and live for years. So the lack of appetite during sickness is a natural opportunity to fast and sometimes it has a therapeutic effect but since the reason the bowel is so connected to the inflammatory diseases is that – well, besides the bacteria that produce things such as lactic acid and endotoxin, each of which has its range of harmful toxic effects, the intestine itself produces a tremendous amount of serotonin and the serotonin, if it isn't detoxified right away, it promotes not only fibrosis and the inflammation but multiplication of cells in the blood vessels thickening them and promoting tumor growth and just about every degenerative condition you can think of. So if you can lighten the inflammation bowed in the intestine, you can achieve the same thing as fasting even though you can still keep absorbing nutrients if you just do it in a way that you don't either produce endotoxin lactic acid or serotonin excess. And partly that means using a very easily digested diet, avoiding the undercooked vegetable matter for example that can’t be digested by human enzymes and provides good food for bacteria and having other easily digested or slightly antimicrobial foods, raw carrots or boiled bamboo shoots for example have thrombocytes that prevent bacterial growth."


I found this other quote while searching for the first one. If someone is set on fasting, they should at least follow his advice in the quote below.

"And for example, when a person's fasting for several days, they will generally lose more protein than fat because the stress hormones rise and they live on a pure meat diet when they're fasting as their tissues break down. And if during that fast if you just drink minerals - salt water, baking soda, potassium, magnesium and calcium - any of the alkaline minerals will radically spare the amount of protein that you would be consuming and wasting. So a fast is much less stressful and harmful if you're getting the alkaline minerals."


So he seems to think that fasting can have a positive effect on the gut, but that you can also achieve the same results by removing irritating things. I think that's the gist of it.

Very nice, thank you!

So the alkaline part and protein sparring effect is also interesting, I like to know what's logic behindn it...

 

[Dhair]

Months ago when I was reading information such as what you are writing, and watching youtube videos of people like "bignoknow", I got into my mind the idea of trying testosterone. I tried an extremely small amount of a testosterone gel (few mg), and had extreme side-effects, similar to drinking beer. Edema, restlessness, insomnia, emotionality... I have tried DHT too, in larger doses, and while it too has side-effects, they are gone in a few days. With testosterone, the side-effects just linger on. I think "TRT" is very dangerous. It has no place on a health forum, where people are looking for ways to recover from serious, degenerative diseases

I am not at all surprised that you had a bad reaction to testosterone cream. Most people do not fare well on it and it it is typically destabilizing. The injections are less likely to cause estrogen problems if taken in a once or twice weekly dose.
I'm not suggesting it's for everyone, but in some situations it's a very effective intervention.

 

[paymanz]

Months ago when I was reading information such as what you are writing, and watching youtube videos of people like "bignoknow", I got into my mind the idea of trying testosterone. I tried an extremely small amount of a testosterone gel (few mg), and had extreme side-effects, similar to drinking beer. Edema, restlessness, insomnia, emotionality... I have tried DHT too, in larger doses, and while it too has side-effects, they are gone in a few days. With testosterone, the side-effects just linger on. I think "TRT" is very dangerous. It has no place on a health forum, where people are looking for ways to recover from serious, degenerative diseases

Maybe you had excess aromatazation?

Maybe if you have low T all you need to do is lower atomatase level.

And trt is not good from another point of view too, when you replace the T you probably lower progesterone production in your body, and probably other hormones like dhea.

Maybe it is just a theory but I think it should be like that.

Probably Same thing happens during anabolic steroid usage too.

 

[paymanz]

just barely eating (1-2 meals a day like many people eat these days) for months at a time.

Doing that while you hungry or not?

It is whole different story if you don't have hunger and so naturally you don't eat, or you hungry and still avoid eating!

 

[Fexxx]

For me a fasted weekend, 1-3 time a month, was an incredible step to solve my health (and mindset) issues.
Maybe it will surpress testosterone in shortterm, but the benefits are owerhelming regarding: reset of the immunesystem, mental clarity and to learn to stay calm without a steady food supply.

On my fasting days I ingest just some teaspoons of honey and ~5g salt to ensure "the key metabolic functions" are running.
Psyllium husk is also very helpful for gut support and "cleaning out".
My Experience: During and AFTER this fasting days my mind is notable calmer AND my Voice is deeper and my sleep better.

So fasting is a very powerful and useful tool you have to be aware of it. Just don´t overdo it! (IF+intense Sport+Day fastings = sick)

 

[RobertJM]

I fast for 12 hours a day, anyway. I eat from 8am until 8pm. Eat as much as I like during the window.

 

[RobertJM]

For me a fasted weekend, 1-3 time a month, was an incredible step to solve my health (and mindset) issues.
Maybe it will surpress testosterone in shortterm, but the benefits are owerhelming regarding: reset of the immunesystem, mental clarity and to learn to stay calm without a steady food supply.

On my fasting days I ingest just some teaspoons of honey and ~5g salt to ensure "the key metabolic functions" are running.
Psyllium husk is also very helpful for gut support and "cleaning out".
My Experience: During and AFTER this fasting days my mind is notable calmer AND my Voice is deeper and my sleep better.

So fasting is a very powerful and useful tool you have to be aware of it. Just don´t overdo it! (IF+intense Sport+Day fastings = sick)

What do you mean by reset of immune system? You had some serious issues go away?