If You Don't Eat Meat, Liver Or Organ Meats What Can You Be Missing?

[marcar72]

...when it comes to Peat and in doing so deconstruct his ideas down to the fundamentals and then work up from there: i.e. Avoid PUFA, avoid foods high in iron, avoid foods high in tryptophan, aim for a diet that has a good calcium to phosphorus ratio, eat mainly foods high in carbohydrates (fruits, sugars, potatoes etc), coconuts/coconut oil for a good fat source and so forth..

You forgot one very important fundamental, getting enough protein daily in your diet. I've heard that Peat himself eats around 1/2 pound of meat/day.

 

[Luann]

Yeah, getting lots of protein is important @marcar72.

The iron in liver if you eat it once or twice a week is not a big deal, it's probably less than what lots of Americans get in a day. And the thyroid needs some amount of iron to function.

 

[cyclops]

You forgot one very important fundamental, getting enough protein daily in your diet. I've heard that Peat himself eats around 1/2 pound of meat/day.

Where'd you hear this? Link?

 

[marcar72]

Where'd you hear this? Link?

Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, And General Guidelines

Post #2 from Charlie in this topic.

 

[cyclops]

Doesn't say he eats half a pound of meat a day.

 

[marcar72]

Doesn't say he eats half a pound of meat a day.

Ohhh, O.K. you got me. I'm pullin' yer leg! It's in there if you just read it through and surmise a bit. Maybe not 1/2 pound of meat a day, maybe 6 oz a day.

 

[marcar72]

Doesn't say he eats half a pound of meat a day.

You grow yourself another eye there, cyclops and maybe you'd be able to read a little better!!

 

[cyclops]

You grow yourself another eye there, cyclops and maybe you'd be able to read a little better!!

lolz

 

[Ritchie]

I've heard that Peat himself eats around 1/2 pound of meat/day.

I think you maybe slightly mis-informed, Peat speaks strongly against the consumption of any form of muscle meat for reasons mentioned above (among others), and this is backed by extensive and solid scientific research. Perhaps you are referring to Peat making bone broths?

 

[biggirlkisss]

muscle meats in moderation with gelatin and enough calicum to convert serotonin to b3.

 

[cyclops]

I never knew serotonin coverts to b3; like turning lemons to lemonade.

 

[Constatine]

I think you maybe slightly mis-informed, Peat speaks strongly against the consumption of any form of muscle meat for reasons mentioned above (among others), and this is backed by extensive and solid scientific research. Perhaps you are referring to Peat making bone broths?

I've heard him say he eats muscle meat sometimes. Though I forget where. I think getting enough protein is more important than avoiding iron. And not everyone has high iron levels. Also good nutrition (especially good vitamin A status) makes iron more safe. In one study giving teens vitamin A and iron induced puberty and growth almost as well as testosterone. But bottom line I think it is more important to get enough nutrients and macros in the diet than to avoid unhealthy things (though you should of course try your best).
If people do decide to eat muscle meats always eat grass fed, grain fed meat is very unhealthy. Grass fed milk is great as well.

 

[cyclops]

I think you should eat as much muscle meat as appetizing to you and not force it down. Some people, like athletes, may need more, so it may be more appealing to them.

 

[Constatine]

I think you should eat as much muscle meat as appetizing to you and not force it down. Some people, like athletes, may need more, so it may be more appealing to them.

True, I think this applies to most foods.

 

[cyclops]

If people do decide to eat muscle meats always eat grass fed, grain fed meat is very unhealthy.

Is it really that bad? I can't always afford grassfed. If I get conventional meat I make sure it is very low in fat because I heard the fat is the worst part if its conventional. I also use conventional bones to make broth.

 

[Constatine]

Is it really that bad? I can't always afford grassfed. If I get conventional meat I make sure it is very low in fat because I heard the fat is the worst part if its conventional. I also use conventional bones to make broth.

It won't kill you in moderation but I would say that the quality of grain fed meat is why meat is considered unhealthy in western culture. There are less vitamins, worse fat ratios (so lower fat percentage will certainly help a bit), more toxins, less important antioxidants (that negate some of the cancer promoting properties of meat), and less minerals. I would assume the mineral content of the bones of grass fed animals would be different as well but I'm not sure how much that matters. It's unfortunate grass fed meat is pretty expensive.

 

[tara]

Are you aware of the negative health implications in consuming dense iron content foods, that Peat and plenty of other scientific literature extensively talks about and concludes? Same goes for foods high in tryptophan. And methionine. There is also extensive research illustrating the risks in consuming too much vitamin A (of which liver is extremely high). Further, vitamin A is accumulative so consuming it regularly as part of ones general diet may be risky in terms of overloading your own liver with vitamin A and thus negatively impacting thyroid and metabolism, along with the metabolism of the other fat solubles. Of course if the context calls for it, sure it may be useful. But it would be wise for someone to ask themselves what this context may be..

That's why I think it is wise to not make it the major source of daily protein.
I do agree that context is important, and that quite possibly not all contexts would benefit from eating liver regularly.
Common contexts where it is likely useful include include widespread culture of diets fairly low in micronutrients of many kinds, and in a forum where one might expect some of us to be struggling with the kinds of issues that tend to hinder carotene conversion.
I think Haidut has also pointed to some research that indicates that people can often be fine with higher levels of vit-A than sometimes recommended. But I'm fine with being cautious on that front.

I think that much effort in trying to stomach any food is a red flag.

I have a different view of that. I think finding ways to prepare food that makes it both nutritious and delicious has been a pretty major part of human culture for a long time, and has a bit going for it.
Preparing food well can take time and effort. Chef's and some housewives/husbands etc spend years getting good at it. I respect that time and effort and skill, and I think people often benefit from it.

I think what it takes to learn to like many foods is repeated exposure. Lucky children get exposed to a wide variety of good quality well-prepared foods in positive environments as they are growing up, or somehow grow up with an attitude that is relatively free from emotional aversions and compulsions around food. Under ideal conditions, I think our bodies can be pretty smart at telling us something about what we need. However, some of us acquired some strong emotional messages attached to particular foods, or for various reasons acquired negative attitudes to varying from narrow food habits.

If there are blocks to being able to access one's body's natural response to a food, it get's trickier to figure out whether it is good to eat or not. Ignorance and emotional blocks can be a hindrance. For some people, if they only eat foods that are instantly appealing with no effort involved in preparation or in challenging habits of taste, they will stay in a habitual diet that is PUFA-laden and nutrient deficient.
There are lots of foods that can have real nutritional value in some contexts, but that many people didn't like the first couple of times they ate them.

Personally, I did not like liver as a child. I've found other ways that I prefer to prepare it now. But I got cravings for it as a teenager. If I hadn't tasted it as a child, I wouldn't have known what it was I was craving. Same with some other foods. I'm guessing the liver contained something I was needing at that time. I've had cravings for it and other foods I disliked as a child at other times too. For a while I was missing liver if I didn't get a small serving a couple of times a week (but couldn't stomach a large serving). Currently I want it more seldom - a small serving every 2-3 weeks feels like plenty.

Again, if in context and treating it as a medicine of sorts, sure perhaps it can be useful.

Well maybe, but then a lot of people here are trying to use our regular food as part of healing strategies (whether you call that medicine or not).

However, as mentioned previously, it comes with negatives that Peat warns of extensively in his literature.

Most foods come with both positives and negatives, and it can make sense to bear them in mind before excessive consumption of anything. Peat doesn't seem to me to recommend eating liver daily, but weekly or so. I haven't done the maths. If one ate say 100g liver/week, soaked in milk or water to remove some of the free blood, what proportion of a week's budget for methionine and iron would that be for a typical growing young woman or man, or a fully grown fit ones, or weak sick ones?
FOr those who don't convert beta carotenes well, and have difficulty with plant sources, what other good sources of vit A are there?

I think you maybe slightly mis-informed, Peat speaks strongly against the consumption of any form of muscle meat for reasons mentioned above (among others), and this is backed by extensive and solid scientific research. Perhaps you are referring to Peat making bone broths?

I'm not sure who's misinformed. I've seen Peat speak of the hazards of too much muscle meat, and eating it unbalanced by other proteins, and of issues of quality and freshness. He's also talked about the importance of getting adequate protein, and that for some people that is the key factor for improving their health. He's suggested including some gelatin when eating muscle meats. He's also written about eating muscle meats himself. I agree with you that he does not favour eating lots of muscle meat.

serotonin to b3

Tryptophan to B3 instead of tryptophan to serotonin?

 

[Ritchie]

I have a different view of that. I think finding ways to prepare food that makes it both nutritious and delicious has been a pretty major part of human culture for a long time, and has a bit going for it.

I agree with this, but there is a vast difference between something like liver, and foods that are simple to cook and taste good regardless of technique, where then technique adds to the flavours and creativeness in a myriad of ways. For example, basic boiling of potatoes with some salt is still going to be delicious. But then you can step this up and prepare potatoes in so many different ways that adds a lot to a dish, and recipes can be mastered and passed down for generations. Fruits, jams etc don't need to much prep to taste good, but extra detail adds to the flavours and creativeness. Leafy greens, garlic, onions, mushrooms, etc all the same. Oysters, raw or slightly cooked.. delicious. Don't need much. The list goes on and on. Taste good if cooked basically with some salt or coconut oil but extra details can add a lot to the flavours, nutrition etc as you mention above. Liver, on the other hand, is in a very different category. It is not a very stomach-able food at the best of times, the smell and look of it raw is enough to make a lot of people dry reach. Simply boiling or grilling it and most people will have a hard time even keeping it down let alone getting it past the chewing stage.. It takes a very specific formula mixed with a lot of other spices/herbs etc and cooked with other ingredients in such a way as to mask out a lot of the actual liver taste to make it even palatable, let alone stomach-able. Intuitively it is a strange "food".

 

[cyclops]

I agree with this, but there is a vast difference between something like liver, and foods that are simple to cook and taste good regardless of technique, where then technique adds to the flavours and creativeness in a myriad of ways. For example, basic boiling of potatoes with some salt is still going to be delicious. But then you can step this up and prepare potatoes in so many different ways that adds a lot to a dish, and recipes can be mastered and passed down for generations. Fruits, jams etc don't need to much prep to taste good, but extra detail adds to the flavours and creativeness. Leafy greens, garlic, onions, mushrooms, etc all the same. Oysters, raw or slightly cooked.. delicious. Don't need much. The list goes on and on. Taste good if cooked basically with some salt or coconut oil but extra details can add a lot to the flavours, nutrition etc as you mention above. Liver, on the other hand, is in a very different category. It is not a very stomach-able food at the best of times, the smell and look of it raw is enough to make a lot of people dry reach. Simply boiling or grilling it and most people will have a hard time even keeping it down let alone getting it past the chewing stage.. It takes a very specific formula mixed with a lot of other spices/herbs etc and cooked with other ingredients in such a way as to mask out a lot of the actual liver taste to make it even palatable, let alone stomach-able. Intuitively it is a strange "food".

This is just your opinion. Some people love liver with just a little salt. Some people cannot stand oysters, etc.

 

[Ritchie]

This is just your opinion. Some people love liver with just a little salt. Some people cannot stand oysters, etc.

Sure I agree with the oysters.. And yes just my opinion, however I'd be willing to bet it would go for the majority