If Starch Is Bad And Fructose Questionable, How To Get Enough Of Glucose?

[General Orange]

..."high intakes of fructose (set at ≥ 25 % of total energy) was shown to lead to metabolic complications such as dyslipidaemia, insulin resistance and increased visceral adiposity, based on several review articles( 47 , 53 – 56 )." This would be 187 gram of table sugar (3k cal. daily intake)

[edit]

"...There has been no evidence that relatively high levels of sugar-sweetened beverages (SSB) consumption could be associated with obesity, diabetes or cardiometabolic risk in professional athletes who usually consume SSB as energy and dehydration drinks. On the other hand, there is evidence that physical inactivity, even within a few days, causes insulin resistance and dyslipidaemia in normal healthy individuals( 105 ). In this regard, two randomised within-subjects studies in healthy males and females showed that higher plasma TAG concentrations, induced by a high-carbohydrate diet, were completely prevented by physical activity( 106 , 107 ). Thus, the metabolic consequences of a high mixed glucose–fructose intake can be significantly modulated by exercise. In a narrative review( 108 ), it was reported that high fructose consumption induces insulin resistance, impaired glucose tolerance, hyperinsulinaemia, hypertriacylglycerolaemia and hypertension in animal models."

"...The data in human subjects, however, were considered less clear. In this respect, fructose consumption, even in large amounts (17 % of total energy), did not result in significant effects in healthy males but did cause these effects in healthy women( 109 ). Moreover, such fructose consumption did not stimulate de novo lipogenesis in premenopausal women( 110 , 111 )Again, it was underlined that experiments in human subjects have produced very conflicting results, as there is only limited evidence from human consumption data, using fructose levels of higher than 15 % of daily energy intake, for such an effect on insulin sensitivity."
EDIT 2 - After checking the reference the article is confusing male for females in bold.

So then we could max the daily fructose intake to 15 % of total energy:
75 gram - 2k cal.
94 gram - 2.5k cal.
or 150g - 188g table sugar

 

[Mufasa]

Some people react bad on fructose, some react bad on starch, some react bad on milk sugars.

If you react bad on all you will have more challenging journey than most people have, as eating enough carbs is crucial for improving metabolism.

I started with milk and potatoes because I reacted bad on fruits. Others react bad on potatoes and milk, my girlfriends for example, she eats a lot of rice and coconut water for carbs (and potassium).

You got to experiment. Being dogmatic doesnt help, better a less optimal food with some toxins, than not meeting your calorie needs.

 

[General Orange]

Now I wonder, would it be cool to have in between meals the beverages with an isotonic sugar content 6-8 gram per 100ml to match the bloods natural sugar levels? What about the morning coffee?

 

[Elephanto]

@Elephanto Didn't you say you eat legumes regularly?

Soaking (especially with bicarbonate sodium) and cooking significantly reduce the levels of lectins and other anti-nutrients. The quantity of lectins also greatly varies depending on variety, and Adzuki beans and lentils, which are the ones I eat, are among the lowest. I also don't eat a lot of them, with a 3.5:1 ratio of white rice to legumes.

The lectin content (average 11.91 mg·g−1) is high in the grain of soybean (29), whereas it is low in adzuki bean (30). We found that legume lectin genes in adzuki bean showed significantly lower gene number ratio than that of other sequenced legume species with an exception of chickpea.

Genome sequencing of adzuki bean (Vigna angularis) provides insight into high starch and low fat accumulation and domestication

Just to show the difference between types :

broad beans contain even less, about 5% to 10% the amount that red kidney beans contain.

And the difference cooking makes :

raw red kidney beans contain from 20,000 to 70,000 hemagglutinating units (hau) of phytohemagglutinin (when fully cooked, their lectin content drops to 200 to 400 hau).

Now raw lentils contain only 513 to 617 hau, so you can extrapolate that the amount in cooked ones is close to none.
Lectin Content of Beans: High vs Low Lectin Varieties

As for enzyme inhibitors :

Cooking of presoaked seeds was even more effective as greater reductions (78.7–100%) were observed for all pulses.

Changes in levels of enzyme inhibitors during soaking and cooking for pulses available in Canada

In my experience, those legumes are among the easiest foods on the gut I've ate. High fructose intake has been shown to cause intestinal permeability for instance, which reflects in a feeling of uneasiness for me. The legumes I eat actually feel gut-soothing and warming like not much else I've experienced, perhaps from their distinctly high anti-oxidants content and Estrogen Receptor Alpha inhibiting properties.

The western/Peat perspective that legumes are unhealthy became absurd to me once experienced in their traditionally prepared form. Learning from the Traditional Chinese Medicine and Ayurveda (Indian) perspectives, taking into account the blue zones thriving on them and the effects of their consumption in humans from studies only reassures this feeling. Except a few varieties, I'd say they are much more likely to be health-augmenting than the opposite. Also much easier to digest than animal protein, and also leading to a more beneficial gut microbiota in comparison.

 

[tara]

No Tara, with all due respect you're wrong.

That quote is from the concluding paragraph of his article on the importance of sugar. Obviously he doesn't mention it as a long term sustainable diet, that's not what the article or the quote is about. His clearly concludes the sugar article with a recommendation of the optimal daily amount of sugar a person should consume, listing two quarts of milk and a quart of OJ as an ideal source both quality- and quantity-wise.

Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

"A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress, but larger amounts of fruit juice, honey, or other sugars can protect against increased stress, and can reverse some of the established degenerative conditions." - Ray Peat, from article referred to.

I've think I've seen him make reference to the 2 q milk + 1 q OJ in other places too, in relation to fat loss - as providing enough sugar and minerals to keep out of stress response. Here he's talking about general resistance to stress. I don't see that as saying that it's enough to support a physically active lifestyle for a grown or growing man with a healthy metabolism, though that would depend on what the rest of the diet/macros were providing.

That's only true of brown rice and the derived protein powder, the metals/toxins are in the bran which is removed when refined. Unsurprisingly, brown rice is a common allergenic food.

I used to eat lots of brown rice, now I eat smaller amounts of white. I'm not aware of any personally allergic response to the brown, but I was persuaded to switch, and I'm preferring it.

Probably from a lack of Potassium which assists in glucose metabolism, combining it with No Salt would be a good way to verify.

I think the potassium is likely to be a key part of it. Tending to favour getting minerals from food rather than supplements where it works, which is one of the reasons for favouring potatoes and other (healthy, peeled, well-cooked) roots.

Yeah, somebody please answer this guys question already!

The reason he's not been inundated with easy answers to this is probably because there aren't many.
Carbs tend to mostly come in plants as either sugars, with a significant component of fructose or sucrose, or as starch. Honey is often more fructose than glucose.
AFAIK, the only ways to get lots of glucose without lots of starch or lots of fructose are from more processed refined products, such as rice syrup, etc.

That's why there are responses tending towards favouring either not worrying too much about the fructose and eating more than 50g of it, or not worrying so much about the starch and eating rice or spud etc. I'd say, go whichever way seems to cause less trouble/better health for the individual.

 

[danishispsychic]

I love gluten free thin crust goat cheese pizza with a glass of OJ. Just saying.

 

[General Orange]

@tara Thank you for your logic, live long and prosper.

 

[tara]

Carbs tend to mostly come in plants as either sugars, with a significant component of fructose or sucrose, or as starch.

Or fibre or other oligosaccharides ...
You can find potential downsides for excessive quantities of them too, if you look for them.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I think I have an allergy to honey. Stopped eating it

 

[Tenacity]

You won't eat starch because Ray says it's bad, yet you won't eat fructose either even though Ray says it's good. Okay then.

 

[Animalinstinct]

You won't eat starch because Ray says it's bad, yet you won't eat fructose either even though Ray says it's good. Okay then.

I do eat fructose. I just feel that since my overall sugar intake is far higher than what Peat recommends, the corresponding fructose is likely way above the amount that he accounts for in his sugar recommendations.

And like I said, I took the liberty of listening to someone other than Peat, and some pretty smart and educated people in here (btw all Peat fans) have polemicized about the max amount of F beyond which it may be detrimental and harmful.

And lastly, well, it is hard to be hearing about how toxic fructose is from every which side. I actually choose to believe Peat, but it’s hard to ignore it completely, it gets to you. Hope i can be forgiven for trying to play it safe. Even though I know Peat obviously cannot be wrong.

 

[Animalinstinct]

I think I have an allergy to honey. Stopped eating it

I’m currious how you came to that conclusion, ie how did it manifest? All honey?

 

[Tenacity]

I do eat fructose. I just feel that since my overall sugar intake is far higher than what Peat recommends, the corresponding fructose is likely way above the amount that he accounts for in his sugar recommendations.

And like I said, I took the liberty of listening to someone other than Peat, and some pretty smart and educated people in here (btw all Peat fans) have polemicized about the max amount of F beyond which it may be detrimental and harmful.

And lastly, well, it is hard to be hearing about how toxic fructose is from every which side. I actually choose to believe Peat, but it’s hard to ignore it completely, it gets to you. Hope i can be forgiven for trying to play it safe. Even though I know Peat obviously cannot be wrong.

I wasn't saying Peat can't be wrong, I eat starch myself. I just found it weird that you're agonising over whether a certain amount of fructose is dangerous when Peat has never indicated a maximum limit. If you are not eating starch, you're either making up the carbs through milk or fruit.

 

[tara]

I think I have an allergy to honey. Stopped eating it

I think people can get allergic to particular honey depending on the plants the bees gathered pollen from.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I’m currious how you came to that conclusion, ie how did it manifest? All honey?

Not sure but I was sneezing like crazy. And it could be the honey or industrial cheese (low fat cheese made with enzymes.). Stopped both and stopped sneezing. Have to try a challenge to know which.

 

[Wagner83]

Soaking (especially with bicarbonate sodium) and cooking significantly reduce the levels of lectins and other anti-nutrients. The quantity of lectins also greatly varies depending on variety, and Adzuki beans and lentils, which are the ones I eat, are among the lowest. I also don't eat a lot of them, with a 3.5:1 ratio of white rice to legumes.


Genome sequencing of adzuki bean (Vigna angularis) provides insight into high starch and low fat accumulation and domestication

Just to show the difference between types :

And the difference cooking makes :

Now raw lentils contain only 513 to 617 hau, so you can extrapolate that the amount in cooked ones is close to none.
Lectin Content of Beans: High vs Low Lectin Varieties

As for enzyme inhibitors :

Changes in levels of enzyme inhibitors during soaking and cooking for pulses available in Canada

In my experience, those legumes are among the easiest foods on the gut I've ate. High fructose intake has been shown to cause intestinal permeability for instance, which reflects in a feeling of uneasiness for me. The legumes I eat actually feel gut-soothing and warming like not much else I've experienced, perhaps from their distinctly high anti-oxidants content and Estrogen Receptor Alpha inhibiting properties.

The western/Peat perspective that legumes are unhealthy became absurd to me once experienced in their traditionally prepared form. Learning from the Traditional Chinese Medicine and Ayurveda (Indian) perspectives, taking into account the blue zones thriving on them and the effects of their consumption in humans from studies only reassures this feeling. Except a few varieties, I'd say they are much more likely to be health-augmenting than the opposite. Also much easier to digest than animal protein, and also leading to a more beneficial gut microbiota in comparison.

Thanks. That sounds like a very small amounts of lentils indeed. When I tried them I ate a whole meal of them, there were some benefits but also negative effects (constipation etc..). Why the baking soda? Apart from removing pesticides I don't see what it does, I thought the whole point was to soak them in an acidic environment. I personally found that lemon juice works better than ACV. I suspect the fibers are the main issue in my case, which is why I use red/yellow lentils.

 

[Elephanto]

@Wagner83 It softens the outer layer and it makes cooking them much faster. I've seen both methods adviced (either baking soda or acids).

Apparently it reduces the raffinose content which can cause gases (incidentally I never got gases from eating them) :
Does adding baking soda to soaking beans reduce gas? | NutritionFacts.org

 

[Wagner83]

@Wagner83 It softens the outer layer and it makes cooking them much faster. I've seen both methods adviced (either baking soda or acids).

Apparently it reduces the raffinose content which can cause gases (incidentally I never got gases from eating them) :
Does adding baking soda to soaking beans reduce gas? | NutritionFacts.org

Thanks, it seems like BS and lemon juice may work in the same manner.

If I remember right Westsidepufas mentioned a few times how for some people having both dairy and starch/legumes /beans can create problems.

 

[Elephanto]

Thanks, it seems like BS and lemon juice may work in the same manner.

If I remember right Westsidepufas mentioned a few times how for some people having both dairy and starch/legumes /beans can create problems.

Well in studies the combo of starch + sucrose promotes Candida biofilm formation the most (sucrose also promoting it more than starch alone). I've stopped eating fruits as dessert but rather at least an hour apart from my main meals on days I eat them. Other than that, Lactose and Fructose are Fodmaps and legumes generally contain Fodmaps, some more than others (high ones are chickpeas, soybeans, kidney beans, baked beans, broad beans, split peas). Gut-related problems may appear when Fodmap intake is high so since my diet includes one source, I try to avoid taking too many others.

Soaking also reduces Fodmap content significantly, as shown in canned legumes. Better to soak than get canned ones because the cans are lined with BPA and citric acid is added which can leech metal from the can.

Most of the time I soak them for at least 48 hours too, this might be why they cause no problem. When I did that with acids it would make them look rancid but this doesn't happen even with a lot of baking soda. (this is done in the refrigerator btw). Sometimes I change the water once during the process as it becomes yellow.

 

[Wagner83]

Well in studies the combo of starch + sucrose promotes Candida biofilm formation the most (sucrose also promoting it more than starch alone). I've stopped eating fruits as dessert but rather at least an hour apart from my main meals on days I eat them. Other than that, Lactose and Fructose are Fodmaps and legumes generally contain Fodmaps, some more than others (high ones are chickpeas, soybeans, kidney beans, baked beans, broad beans). Gut-related problems may appear when Fodmap intake is high so since my diet includes one source, I try to avoid taking too many others.

Soaking also reduces Fodmap content significantly, as shown in canned legumes. Better to soak than get canned ones because the cans are lined with BPA and citric acid is added which can leech metal from the can.

Most of the time I soak them for at least 48 hours too, this might be why they cause no problem. When I did that with acids it would make them look rancid but this doesn't happen even with a lot of baking soda. (this is done in the refrigerator btw). Sometimes I change the water once during the process as it becomes yellow.

Ok, I tried on for forty eight hours abd the lentils led to significantly less gas, but it still slowed things down probably because of the fiber adsault. A cup of yellow dry lentils in a single sitting may be pushing it although it has proteins, nutrients , carbs and is cheap, so pretty convenient if it worked. I haven't noticed the rancid appearance but then I didn't try beans nor storing them in the fridge. Since you also pick basmati rice over jasmine perhaps you do fine with carbs which are tougher to digest.