If Starch Is Bad And Fructose Questionable, How To Get Enough Of Glucose?

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If I break it down the numbers don’t stack up:

I know a lot of people here eat potatos and rice, but Peat says that’s not ideal, so let’s scratch those.

Fructose is debatable at best. I’m aware Peat is a fan, but Peat also says 200 grams of carbs per day are optimal, and he lists a quart of OJ and two quarts od milk as the ideal source. That 200 gram carb combo come out to only about 50 grams of fructose (from OJ, as there is none in milk). I also remember a few very knowledgable people in this forum also capping the daily fructose intake at 50 grams max.

And so - if a person consumes 200 grams of protein (weight lifting) and tries to adhere to the Peat recommended 2:1 carb to protein ratio, how the hell is one supposed to reach that, without going nuclear on fructose? (Over 50 grams). Or going the starch way? Both non-Peaty. Lactose also not feasible in that amount - way too much milk.

Would the artificial forms of powdered glucose, dextrose or maltodextrin be okay? I very much resist that idea, it’s bad enough I already consume lab-made aminos like bcaa, glycine, taurine, whey or creatine.

But where to then get those 400+ grams of carbs that are zero starch and low fructose?
 
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tara

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but Peat also says 200 grams of carbs per day are optimal
Where have you seen him say that recently? IIRC, I've seen him say that optimum macro balance may vary, that 1/3 each may be good, but also at other times that more cars are probably better. Also elsewhere, that a few hundred g carbs are needed.
I understood that 1 quart OJ + 2 quarts milk idea as a basis for a limited-duration weight/fat loss programme. That is, part of a day's food, not all of it, and not a maintenance programme, but a deficit.

And so - if a person consumes 200 grams of protein (weight lifting) and tries to adhere to the Peat recommended 2:1 carb to protein ratio,
I've not seen Peat recommend 200 g protein, or specifically a 2:2 carb ; protein ratio (though it wouldn't surprise me if this suits some people well.)

For people who do tolerate and enjoy milk, there are some that can consume quite a lot of it. Sometimes evaporated.

As I understand it, Peat has tended to favour getting most carbs from fresh ripe fruit, milk and honey, and occasional refined sugars (sucrose, coke, etc). But he's also said potatoes and other roots can be are good food (except for the starch not being ideal). Elsewhere, that good health can be consistent with eating starch.

Some people have reported restoring health with a lot of fruit and juice, some with lots of milk, some with potatoes, etc, and some with combinations,
My guess is that tolerance for fructose and starch vary from person to person, so it's a matter or discovering which balance works best for you. Meal frequency may be a factor, too.

I think there are other sources, but there are some downsides to relying heavily on overly refined foods, such as the paucity of other nutrition in them.

Carey Reams used to get people to rotate their sweeteners to avoid developing intolerances to them.
 

raypeatclips

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If you have no problems with starch, then eat starch. If you have problems with starch, try different starches, well boiled potatoes, pressure cooked potatoes, well boiled rice, sourdough bread. I don't know what answers you were expecting wanting no starch and no fructose. Unless you have major health problems don't become orthorexic if you don't need to be. Also the 2:1 carb protein ratio isn't set in stone and gospel. Experiment with everything and decide for yourself.
 

Animalinstinct

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Where have you seen him say that recently?

I've not seen Peat recommend 200 g protein, or specifically a 2:2 carb ; protein ratio (though it wouldn't surprise me if this suits some people well.)

“A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress”

For sugar to protein ratio, i didn’t say 2:2 but 2:1, and I think this is the general concensus, though I can’t find a quote. Do your have a source that disputes it?
 

Animalinstinct

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If you have no problems with starch, then eat starch. If you have problems with starch, try different starches, well boiled potatoes, pressure cooked potatoes, well boiled rice, sourdough bread. I don't know what answers you were expecting wanting no starch and no fructose. Unless you have major health problems don't become orthorexic if you don't need to be. Also the 2:1 carb protein ratio isn't set in stone and gospel. Experiment with everything and decide for yourself.

Thanks for the response. I’m looking for the answer on what is proper. There’s no point in me experiment or trying things, to see what works for me, like you’re suggesting, because nothing I do makes any difference in how I am. I am well. I thrive just as well on french fries, pufa and fish, as I do on peat style diet. Nothing makes any difference to me.

But obviously there may be things going on under the hood that will only manifest themselves a lot later. Which is why I want to take the right path. Hence the questions.
 

tara

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“A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress”
Yes, as a basis for a limited term diet in the context of fat-loss.
I didn't think he meant that it's a full long-term sustainable diet, though.

For sugar to protein ratio, i didn’t say 2:2 but 2:1, and I think this is the general concensus, though I can’t find a quote. Do your have a source that disputes it?
Whoops, typo on my part, I did read your 2:1 ratio, didn't mean to write 2:2. Might be a general consensus that 2:1 suits quite a lot of people, but I've not seen Peat say that this is a general recommendation for everyone. Some seem to do better with quite a bit more carbs than that.

I wish I was better at refinding things I've read. What I recall reading from Peat is:
A tentative comment from a few years ago along the lines that possibly equal ratios of carbs, fat, protein might be good, but that it is not well enough known, and that quite possibly it varies from person to person.
Since then I've heard speculation that he has tended to become more keen on higher carbs for himself. But he's never pushed a very low fat diet as a general recommendation as far as I've seen. For protein, I've seen him suggest 80-100g for hypothyroid states, that healthy people may do better with more, and that he's felt better with more like 150g.
Elsewhere I think I've seen him say people need a few hundred grams of carbs - starch or sugars.

I’m looking for the answer on what is proper.
Good luck.

I thrive just as well on french fries, pufa and fish, as I do on peat style diet.
I know Peat recommends keeping PUFA low, and isn't a fan of gluten, but as long as the they are cooked in beef fat or coconut oil, fries are great, and fish has some good nutrition in it? If I can skip the wheaty batter and use more saturated fats, fish n chips serve me a lot better as a meal than OJ and milk.
 

Elephanto

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White rice is widely one of the least allergenic food for people with allergic reactions to pretty much everything. I would avoid gluten, oats, potatoes, barley, buckwheat, corn which have gut-irritating properties and can cause intestinal permeability (which is the main factor allowing Endotoxins to damage), quinoa since it's estrogenic and brown rice which is high in heavy metals and has an anti-androgenic property. When basmati rice (the type that is lowest in starch) is well rinsed and drained, starch content decreases, and when mixed with antiseptics like coconut oil, salt, ginger or turmeric, its potential to feed bacterias is realistically close to none. The absence of fiber also doesn't allow to feed bacterias in the small intestine. I would advice not to mix sugar and starch together as this combo increases Candida biofilm formation the most (sugar also increasing it more than starch alone).
 

tara

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White rice is widely one of the least allergenic food for people with allergic reactions to pretty much everything. I would avoid gluten, oats, potatoes, barley, buckwheat, corn which have gut-irritating properties and can cause intestinal permeability (which is the main factor allowing Endotoxins to damage), quinoa since it's estrogenic and brown rice which is high in heavy metals and has an anti-androgenic property. When basmati rice (the type that is lowest in starch) is well rinsed and drained, starch content decreases, and when mixed with antiseptics like coconut oil, salt, ginger or turmeric, its potential to feed bacterias is realistically close to none.
I think some people have trouble with potatoes and other nightshades, and are best to avoid them. Some people do really well on them, though.
Rice can work well for some, but is lower in some valuable nutrition, eg potassium.

I think which is going to work well for you depends on your personal vulnerabilities, and the balance of nutrition in the rest of your diet.
Personally, I have some of each, am not aware of trouble from spuds, adn rice is OK in small-moderate amounts but not too much. When eating rice, I generally eat it with veges or fruit.
 

Elephanto

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@tara True for the lack of Potassium, but I'd rather mix it with Potassium sources or take 1/8-1/4tsp of No-Salt than replace rice by potatoes which contain gut-irritating Saponins. Good if you support them but I think in general anyone can see an improvement in health if one replaces a diet heavily based on potatoes which should give an hint to their un-optimality. They also tend to be higher in mycotoxins and metalloestrogens like Cadmium and Lead, which can be sources of allergenicity (and even if supported, still detrimental). Don't get me wrong, I don't get a bad reaction from eating a few potatoes but this is with the concept in mind that habits shape lives, and so if you're going to design a long-term diet it would be logical to not have a significantly unoptimal food as a staple. Might take some time before noticeable damage appears.

For instance, IBS prevalence is specifically correlated with the intake of fries. Not other fatty, high PUFAs and/or salty foods. (although a lot of salt taken at once has shown to cause intestinal permeability)

Interestingly, the prevalence of IBD is highest in countries where fried potatoes consumption is highest.
Potato glycoalkaloids adversely affect intestinal permeability and aggravate inflammatory bowel disease. - PubMed - NCBI

Potatoes are among the most common foods that trigger IBS reactions.
Using double blind oral food challenges, items that have been confirmed include: banana, coffee, corn, eggs, milk, peas, potatoes, and wheat.
Addressing the Role of Food in Irritable Bowel Syndrome Symptom Management
 

tara

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Elephanto

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Why would potatoes be high in mycotoxins if they look healthy and they are peeled?
Root vegetables are generally high in mycotoxins. Corn is also the highest dietary source of mycotoxins (Aflatoxin, the most damaging kind) even when they look healthy. Studies show that the toxins are also present in healthy parts of tubers. Maybe they don't penetrate the skin so I'll give you that if you want to remove it from the list of its undesirable features.

Reminds me of Nietzsche's quote "a diet that consists predominantly of potatoes leads to the use of alcohol." Maybe the Irish were prompt to use alcohol as a gut disinfectant. I think in the case of rice and the use of opioids, presumably it was brown rice with anti-androgenic properties from the bran (Testosterone being a potent cortisol inhibitor) and metalloestrogens (Estrogen being a Cortisol promoter) that could explain it. It's also easier to overeat rice as it is easy to digest and either single sitting high intakes of pure glucose or sugar produce symptoms similar to opioid withdrawal.

It is also anecdotally common that people experience gases when eating potatoes or pea soup. This is usually a sign of intestinal permeability.
 
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tara

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They also tend to be higher in ... metalloestrogens like Cadmium and Lead,
Are they really higher in problematic metals than rice is? There has been discussion of arsenic in rice, but I'm not sure how big deal it is. I expect it depends on where they are grown. Be nice to know about the health of the soils.

I know I feel worse in the short term if I skip potatoes and eat too much more more rice instead.
For instance, IBS prevalence is specifically correlated with the intake of fries. Not other fatty, high PUFAs and/or salty foods. (although a lot of salt taken at once has shown to cause intestinal permeability)
Not sure what the study/ies were - did it/they control for other nutrition? Maybe people who ate a lot of fries had other habits?

Potatoes are among the most common foods that trigger IBS reactions.
If they were doing that, that'd be a good reason to find something more benign.

Root vegetables are generally high in mycotoxins. Corn is also the highest dietary source of mycotoxins (Aflatoxin, the most damaging kind) even when they look healthy. Studies show that the toxins are also present in healthy parts of tubers. Maybe they don't penetrate the skin so I'll give you that if you want to remove it from the list of its undesirable features.
I had tended to associate mycotoxins particularly with grains. I expected visual inspection to give an indicator of how mouldy roots are?
I've come across some mouldy looking potatoes, but a lot of the ones I get seem to be good, and most look good on the inside, whatever the outside is like. I ditch any green ones, and am getting good at predicting which ones to leave on the shelf as likely green.
 

Animalinstinct

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Yes, as a basis for a limited term diet in the context of fat-loss.
I didn't think he meant that it's a full long-term sustainable diet, though.

No Tara, with all due respect you're wrong.

That quote is from the concluding paragraph of his article on the importance of sugar. Obviously he doesn't mention it as a long term sustainable diet, that's not what the article or the quote is about. His clearly concludes the sugar article with a recommendation of the optimal daily amount of sugar a person should consume, listing two quarts of milk and a quart of OJ as an ideal source both quality- and quantity-wise.

Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.
 
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Elephanto

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Are they really higher in problematic metals than rice is? There has been discussion of arsenic in rice, but I'm not sure how big deal it is. I expect it depends on where they are grown. Be nice to know about the health of the soils.
That's only true of brown rice and the derived protein powder, the metals/toxins are in the bran which is removed when refined. Unsurprisingly, brown rice is a common allergenic food.

I know I feel worse in the short term if I skip potatoes and eat too much more more rice instead.
Probably from a lack of Potassium which assists in glucose metabolism, combining it with No Salt would be a good way to verify.

Not sure what the study/ies were - did it/they control for other nutrition? Maybe people who ate a lot of fries had other habits?
Well the study I linked shows direct effects of potato glycoalkaloids on intestinal permeability.
 

CoolTweetPete

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If you have no problems with starch, then eat starch. If you have problems with starch, try different starches, well boiled potatoes, pressure cooked potatoes, well boiled rice, sourdough bread. I don't know what answers you were expecting wanting no starch and no fructose. Unless you have major health problems don't become orthorexic if you don't need to be. Also the 2:1 carb protein ratio isn't set in stone and gospel. Experiment with everything and decide for yourself.

"Perceive, think, act". I concur.
 

KennethKaniff

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Why is fructose questionable? Studies I've seen show a mixture of fructose and glucose produces higher metabolism, more co2, better replenishment of glycogen
 
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