If Milk Isnt A Concern Than Also Whey Protein Powder Is Not

Hgreen56

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I have read some topics here that are saying not to consume whey because high tryptophan content.
But i think this is bull****?

Ray Peat says that high tryptophan content of milk should not be problematic duo the high calcium content.
He says that it is the calcium to phosphate ratio is the major contributor in whether the trpytophan in the milk will be converted into excess serotonin or Niacan:

"the ratio of calcium to phosphorous should be very high. If under stress, the phosphate becomes more a problem and adds to the stress.
Meat and whole grains are major sourches of phosphate. You have te be more concerned with you calcium intake if you have a meat or grained based diet"

Well i looked for some calcium : phosphate ratios:
Ground beef: 13mg : 193mg
chicken breast: 14mg : 216mg
Milk skim: 123mg : 101mg
Whey: 103mg : 78mg

even whey has the lowest tryptophan versus other protein sources.
Ground beef: 148 mg
chicken breast: 202mg
Milk skim: 48mg
Whey: 16mg
Sourche: SELF Nutrition Data | Food Facts, Information & Calorie Calculator

|Also whey powder is the most bio-available protein
As a liquid, it moves through the digestive system quickly as compared with other protein sourches.
So whey is hardly stressful for the body. (Thats ray's goal right? avoid stress in all ways possible)
And whey contributes to satiety, giving it a potential role in appetite control.

So why avoid whey? muscle meat are more a concern if i ask me..
 
Last edited:

Vinny

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I have read some topics here that are saying not to consume whey because high tryptophan content.
But i think this is bull****?

Ray Peat says that high tryptophan content of milk should not be problematic duo the high calcium content.
He says that it is the calcium to phosphate ratio is the major contributor in whether the trpytophan in the milk will be converted into excess serotonin or Niacan:

"the ratio of calcium to phosphorous should be very high. If under stress, the phosphate becomes more a problem and adds to the stress.
Meat and whole grains are major sourches of phosphate. You have te be more concerned with you calcium intake if you have a meat or grained based diet"

Well i looked for some calcium : phosphate ratios:
Ground beef: 13mg : 193mg
chicken breast: 14mg : 216mg
Milk skim: 123mg : 101mg
Whey: 103mg : 78mg

even whey has the lowest tryptophan versus other protein sources.
Ground beef: 148 mg
chicken breast: 202mg
Milk skim: 48mg
Whey: 16mg
Sourche: SELF Nutrition Data | Food Facts, Information & Calorie Calculator

So why avoid whey? muscle meat are more a concern if i ask me..
Interesting!
 

lampofred

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Other sources say that whey has less calcium than phosphate.

And the absolute amount of tryptophan isn't what's important, it's also important to look at the ratio of tryptophan to valine/leucine/isoleucine/phenylalanine/tyrosine (Fernstrom ratio). You can have high tryptophan and even higher of the other amino acids, and that would be better than low tryptophan but lower of the other aminos.
 

Jessie

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I agree, I don't think whey is problematic provided the tryptophan is being converted primarily into niacin. However I don't see much use for isolated protein powders. Even if the tryptohan isn't a issue, these mass produced powders surely have adulterants in them. Besides the occasional packet of gelatin, I wouldn't risk it. Getting most of your protein from whole foods (milk, cheese, oxtail, bone broth, leafy greens, potatoes, etc.) is probably the best idea.
 

Lollipop2

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However I don't see much use for isolated protein powders. Even if the tryptohan isn't a issue, these mass produced powders surely have adulterants in them. Besides the occasional packet of gelatin, I wouldn't risk it. Getting most of your protein from whole foods (milk, cheese, oxtail, bone broth, leafy greens, potatoes, etc.) is probably the best idea.
+1
 

Inaut

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Isn’t one of Ray’s issues the processing of proteins in general?
 
J

jb116

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Isn’t one of Ray’s issues the processing of proteins in general?
Yes. It would be looking at this whole thing with too narrow of a lens to think only calcium:phosphate or tryptophan ratio. There is the realm processed aminos too.
 

Hgreen56

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Isn’t one of Ray’s issues the processing of proteins in general?

Yes. It would be looking at this whole thing with too narrow of a lens to think only calcium:phosphate or tryptophan ratio. There is the realm processed aminos too.

Whats negative with processed amino's? because its low in other nutritions? you know whey its from cheese right? what you all eat here.
And this processing makes the whey much easier and less stressful to digest than other dairy foods together.
i am not defending whey protein but i don't see any issues with it.
 

schultz

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I think total calcium as well as the calcium to phosphorus ratio would both matter. Milk has significantly more total calcium.

According to Cronometer, from 100g of protein from whey powder and milk you get...

100g of protein from whey powder
Calcium: 422mg
Tryptophan: 2g

100g of protein from milk
Calcium: 3616mg
Tryptophan: 1.3g


Milk, according to Cronometer, has almost 9 times more calcium and about 33% less tryptophan. Plus it has more nutrients in general to help with the proper handling of tryptophan.

I'd be interested to see what Ray would say though.
 

Runenight201

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Won’t the processing of whey strip the dairy of its nutrients and turn the mixture into a primarily protein concoction?

Every time I consume isolated whey I get an allergic reaction to it. The same does not happen to me when I consume saltier, harder cheeses like Romano or pecorino. I don’t enjoy the softer, less salty cheeses, so the higher salt and lower moisture content could be aiding the digestion compared to creamier concoctions.
 

Runenight201

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you tried different brands?

A couple different ones but I haven’t gone out of my way to look for the highest quality organic whey out there. The generic fitness whey ones always give me that response. Do you have a good one you’d recommend? I prefer to experiment with small samples, because I hate buying a whole 30, 60 serving size of something only to end up disliking it and wasting a ton of money.
 

Hgreen56

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A couple different ones but I haven’t gone out of my way to look for the highest quality organic whey out there. The generic fitness whey ones always give me that response. Do you have a good one you’d recommend? I prefer to experiment with small samples, because I hate buying a whole 30, 60 serving size of something only to end up disliking it and wasting a ton of money.
i just buy cheap whey from myprotein.com of bulkpowders.com but they don't sell samples. ( i think, not sure)
i never got allergic reaction from protein powders, only some bloat from casein powders.

Maybe this is interesting for you, its not whey but a protein milkshake samples.
Protein Milkshake - Sample Pack (10x25 gram) - 1 pcs
Is one of the few who cares about quality so maybe its something to consider.

Edit: i see now that they have also other whey samples
Protein
 

yashi

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even whey has the lowest tryptophan versus other protein sources.
Ground beef: 148 mg
chicken breast: 202mg
Milk skim: 48mg
Whey: 16mg
Sourche: SELF Nutrition Data | Food Facts, Information & Calorie Calculator
Whey does NOT have the lowest tryptophan versus other protein sources. You are comparing vastly different amounts of protein in each. The only way to compare (just) tryptophan between foods would be to do it for the same amount of total protein. You don't even state the serving sizes.

I threw together a small spreadsheet with some foods from cronometer, added them all in an amount that serves up 100g of protein. I attached the foods you mentioned and a longer list, their tryptohan per 100g of total protein and their fernstrom ratios (Tr/(Tyr+Phe+Val+Ile+Leu).
tryptophan short list.png

Whey is one of the worst foods by that metric atleast. Some foods score terribly, e.g. peaches has a fernstrom ratio of 10%, but in those cases I don't think it really matters, as we wouldn't really eat those foods for protein (I just included them out of interest).

tryptophan long list.png
Should anyone catch any mistakes in my calculations, let me know so I can edit this post and not spread misinformation.
 

JanP

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Whey does NOT have the lowest tryptophan versus other protein sources. You are comparing vastly different amounts of protein in each. The only way to compare (just) tryptophan between foods would be to do it for the same amount of total protein. You don't even state the serving sizes.

I threw together a small spreadsheet with some foods from cronometer, added them all in an amount that serves up 100g of protein. I attached the foods you mentioned and a longer list, their tryptohan per 100g of total protein and their fernstrom ratios (Tr/(Tyr+Phe+Val+Ile+Leu).
View attachment 18953

Whey is one of the worst foods by that metric atleast. Some foods score terribly, e.g. peaches has a fernstrom ratio of 10%, but in those cases I don't think it really matters, as we wouldn't really eat those foods for protein (I just included them out of interest).

View attachment 18952
Should anyone catch any mistakes in my calculations, let me know so I can edit this post and not spread misinformation.
Wow this is awesome table, thanks for sharing!
 
Last edited:

Melangeur

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I wonder if there is a difference in amino content from whey made directly from milk (native whey) rather than cheese?
 

JanP

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754
Whey does NOT have the lowest tryptophan versus other protein sources. You are comparing vastly different amounts of protein in each. The only way to compare (just) tryptophan between foods would be to do it for the same amount of total protein. You don't even state the serving sizes.

I threw together a small spreadsheet with some foods from cronometer, added them all in an amount that serves up 100g of protein. I attached the foods you mentioned and a longer list, their tryptohan per 100g of total protein and their fernstrom ratios (Tr/(Tyr+Phe+Val+Ile+Leu).
View attachment 18953

Whey is one of the worst foods by that metric atleast. Some foods score terribly, e.g. peaches has a fernstrom ratio of 10%, but in those cases I don't think it really matters, as we wouldn't really eat those foods for protein (I just included them out of interest).

View attachment 18952
Should anyone catch any mistakes in my calculations, let me know so I can edit this post and not spread misinformation.
Suprised how low the bananas scored, given that they are notorious for high tryptophan content. Also, why is the fernstrom ratio of oranges almost double than the fernstrom ratio of orange juice? Most of the tryptophan is in the pulp / fibrous part of the oranges?
 
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