If Estrogen Is So Bad, Why Does It Immediately Help

CrispyBacon

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Mar 11, 2015
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The Ray Peat ideas make a lot of sense to me, some are hard for me to agree with, but the Estrogen/Progesterone ideas seem so straight forward, but my wife went through early menopause according to multiple doctors, naturepaths, is supposedly not producing any hormones so they put her on estrogen/progesterone. (They are bio identical she says).
As she constantly adjusts the amounts to dial it in to maximum benefit, she leans toward lower estrogen as I always mention the things I read and hear from Haidut on Danny Roddy podcasts.
Well, she ran out of estrogen, so I asked her to try just the progesterone until she gets the Estrogen and IMMEDIATELY the vaginal dryness comes back.
Also, estrogen gets rid of the hot flashes.

Searching the forum, no one has a solution for vaginal dryness. Suppository's might help some a little.

So here is something hard to ponder, If estrogen is so bad, how come it immediately helps with a specific health issue?

This issue isn't like baldness that nothing fixes, this is an issue that nothing else seems to fix.
 
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pregnenolone got rid of my wife's vaginal dryness almost immediately.

It also stopped her hot flashes cold.
 

Makrosky

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The Ray Peat ideas make a lot of sense to me, some are hard for me to agree with, but the Estrogen/Progesterone ideas seem so straight forward, but my wife went through early menopause according to multiple doctors, naturepaths, is supposedly not producing any hormones so they put her on estrogen/progesterone. (They are bio identical she says).
As she constantly adjusts the amounts to dial it in to maximum benefit, she leans toward lower estrogen as I always mention the things I read and hear from Haidut on Danny Roddy podcasts.
Well, she ran out of estrogen, so I asked her to try just the progesterone until she gets the Estrogen and IMMEDIATELY the vaginal dryness comes back.
Also, estrogen gets rid of the hot flashes.

Searching the forum, no one has a solution for vaginal dryness. Suppository's might help some a little.

So here is something hard to ponder, If estrogen is so bad, how come it immediately helps with a specific health issue?

This issue isn't like baldness that nothing fixes, this is an issue that nothing else seems to fix.

She would be dead if she isn't producing any hormones. She's producing too little of some kind of them, probably the steroids.

Most probably the body needs some estrogen. Otherwise it wouldn't be there. It's like serotonin, you need some. What's the ratio between estrogen/progesterone she uses ?

Vitamin E is protective against estrogen so if she really must take the estrogen, I mean, if you don't find any other solution, maybe taking some Vitamin E as well can help mitigate the estrogen effects on the body.
 

haidut

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The Ray Peat ideas make a lot of sense to me, some are hard for me to agree with, but the Estrogen/Progesterone ideas seem so straight forward, but my wife went through early menopause according to multiple doctors, naturepaths, is supposedly not producing any hormones so they put her on estrogen/progesterone. (They are bio identical she says).
As she constantly adjusts the amounts to dial it in to maximum benefit, she leans toward lower estrogen as I always mention the things I read and hear from Haidut on Danny Roddy podcasts.
Well, she ran out of estrogen, so I asked her to try just the progesterone until she gets the Estrogen and IMMEDIATELY the vaginal dryness comes back.
Also, estrogen gets rid of the hot flashes.

Searching the forum, no one has a solution for vaginal dryness. Suppository's might help some a little.

So here is something hard to ponder, If estrogen is so bad, how come it immediately helps with a specific health issue?

This issue isn't like baldness that nothing fixes, this is an issue that nothing else seems to fix.


The work of PM Wise shows that exogenous estrogen suppresses pituitary activity, which can temporarily relieve hot flashes and vaginal dryness as they are due primarily to elevated LH/FSH. However, estrogen damages the negative feedback for cortisol production and is itself highly catabolic for muscle, not to mention its carcinogenicity. I think some studies have found success from intravaginal progesterone administration, which should be a lot safer than estrogen. Vaginal administration of DHEA dissolved in vitamin E also seems to help as can pregnenolone (as mentioned by the hamster).
How are her prolactin and estrone levels?
 

NathanK

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Estrogen plays an important role in libido so if she is taking enough estrogen to bring her serum labs into more normal range then I can see that being a reason for benefit. Progesterone alone would further suppress her already low serum E2 though it may have other benefits. Her estrone is likely high, which is causing a lot of problems. That's a much harder and longer problem to solve. I wonder if her testosterone is in normal female range. Not sure how endos see this, but it makes sense to me for small testosterone supplementation in order to endogenously increase serum estradiol to normal levels while also balancing low testosterone. Testosterone is important for women too and likely underappreciated much like some of the beneficial roles of estrogen in men. Naturally though, I'd first try pregnenolone and DHEA while trying to rid her body of PUFA and tissue bound estrone.

Ironically, this reminded me of an anecdote Dave Asprey said years ago about how he helped his wife's vaginal dryness. He would put the tiniest amount of his testosterone gel on his wife's labia and her libido, and "wetness", would go crazy with desire.
 

Stilgar

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The idea about any hormonal situation (e.g. early menopause) where you cannot manufacture sufficient hormones as being an inbuilt error or something that just happens out of bad luck is hard to overcome mentally when the medical establishment tell people it is that way. It is important to remember that - Ray's most important message is that the body is almost always wanting to heal itself - you just need to figure out what is missing, or interfering with those processes. The trick here is usually vitamin A (or the substance that it produces, pregnenolone). You need a good metabolic diet to handle the A, but when you can, you would be able to manufacture all of the steroid hormones, without need for supplemental aids, e.g. estrogen, progesterone, testosterone etc. The problem is twofold, however - many people have too poorer diet to handle vitamin A without it being anti-metabolic, and many people just don't eat enough of it. Pregnenolone is almost as good, but vitamin A has many other good roles too which make focusing on it important.

Does she eat sugar or fruit? Cholesterol is the other factor that could be missing, but it is less likely than a deficiency of vitamin A.

Ray often recommends that progesterone be used to ease symptoms, but that the real underlying cause needs to be found if it helps. If low estrogen is truly a problem, vitamin A will allow for natural production of it an appropriate level. It is unlikely to be the case that you would ever need supplemental estrogen. Detoxifying estrogen and improving the other hormones is a better strategy. Get enough good quality protein like milk and cheese, coconut oil, sugar, fruit etc, have a carrot salad once a day, and eliminate irritating foods. Then introduce vitamin A. Liver is ideal, because there is an abundance of vitamin E there too. Vitamin E can be a great place to start too - because it spares vitamin A from being wasted, so if the situation improved, it can indicate that a poor vitamin A status/poor metabolism (they are almost synonymous) is the problem.

I agree that testosterone might be the most important in vaginal dryness. It certainly is huge for sex drive, in my experience.
 

tara

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How's the nutrition? I don't know that it makes sense to focus on hormone manipulation without also considering the nutritional context.
There could be specific deficiencies, as suggested above.

What are body temps and resting pulse like? Any thyroid lab values?

One way to get night sweats is to run out of liver glycogen in the night.
Estrogen tends to lower metabolism and temperature set point, and maybe increase lipolysis. Lower metabolism means burning through fuel more slowly. Lipolysis means burning more fat and therefore likely burning through sugar more slowly. So they could both mean being able to go longer at night before blood sugar crash -> adrenaline surge -> sweats and/or wakefulness.
I don't know if these are factors at play for your wife, but if so, more sugar (pref from fruit, milk, etc) through the day and maybe in the evening or when waking in the night may be helpful. I think this is one of the things that helped eliminate my night sweats a couple of years ago. (I'm pre- or peri-menopausal.)
 

thegiantess

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The Ray Peat ideas make a lot of sense to me, some are hard for me to agree with, but the Estrogen/Progesterone ideas seem so straight forward, but my wife went through early menopause according to multiple doctors, naturepaths, is supposedly not producing any hormones so they put her on estrogen/progesterone. (They are bio identical she says).
As she constantly adjusts the amounts to dial it in to maximum benefit, she leans toward lower estrogen as I always mention the things I read and hear from Haidut on Danny Roddy podcasts.
Well, she ran out of estrogen, so I asked her to try just the progesterone until she gets the Estrogen and IMMEDIATELY the vaginal dryness comes back.
Also, estrogen gets rid of the hot flashes.

Searching the forum, no one has a solution for vaginal dryness. Suppository's might help some a little.

So here is something hard to ponder, If estrogen is so bad, how come it immediately helps with a specific health issue?

This issue isn't like baldness that nothing fixes, this is an issue that nothing else seems to fix.

I think the general thought here is that estrogen is bad when its dominant. I also think a lot of folks here are a bit hyperbolic about estrogen, which leads others to think it needs to be eliminated altogether. That of course would be no bueno. Estrogen is useful and necessary in things like pregnancy. It becomes problematic when it dominates and that seems to be the norm these days. In your wife's case it seems odd that she supps both estrogen and progesterone.
 

tara

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supposedly not producing any hormones so they put her on estrogen/progesterone
I guess you've read Peat's articles on estrogen and progesterone? Including the one about tissue-bound estrogen in aging?
 

Blossom

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How are her prolactin and estrone levels?
I've noticed a correlation between elevated prolactin and vaginal dryness so I would agree that prolactin might be worth checking.
 

tara

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I don't know if these are factors at play for your wife, but if so, more sugar (pref from fruit, milk, etc) through the day and maybe in the evening or when waking in the night may be helpful. I think this is one of the things that helped eliminate my night sweats a couple of years ago.
Another thing that I think helped me with night sweats was, counter-intuitively for me, keeping warmer in bed. I thought the sweats meant I was sleeping too warm. Now I think sleeping too cold burned through available sugar faster.
 
OP
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CrispyBacon

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The work of PM Wise shows that exogenous estrogen suppresses pituitary activity, which can temporarily relieve hot flashes and vaginal dryness as they are due primarily to elevated LH/FSH. However, estrogen damages the negative feedback for cortisol production and is itself highly catabolic for muscle, not to mention its carcinogenicity. I think some studies have found success from intravaginal progesterone administration, which should be a lot safer than estrogen. Vaginal administration of DHEA dissolved in vitamin E also seems to help as can pregnenolone (as mentioned by the hamster).
How are her prolactin and estrone levels?

Her prolactin last checked say 5 nag/ml and her estrone tot was 240
 

haidut

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Her prolactin last checked say 5 nag/ml and her estrone tot was 240

The estrone seems high. What is the lab range and what are the unit of measurement?
 
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CrispyBacon

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The idea about any hormonal situation (e.g. early menopause) where you cannot manufacture sufficient hormones as being an inbuilt error or something that just happens out of bad luck is hard to overcome mentally when the medical establishment tell people it is that way. It is important to remember that - Ray's most important message is that the body is almost always wanting to heal itself - you just need to figure out what is missing, or interfering with those processes. The trick here is usually vitamin A (or the substance that it produces, pregnenolone). You need a good metabolic diet to handle the A, but when you can, you would be able to manufacture all of the steroid hormones, without need for supplemental aids, e.g. estrogen, progesterone, testosterone etc. The problem is twofold, however - many people have too poorer diet to handle vitamin A without it being anti-metabolic, and many people just don't eat enough of it. Pregnenolone is almost as good, but vitamin A has many other good roles too which make focusing on it important.

Does she eat sugar or fruit? Cholesterol is the other factor that could be missing, but it is less likely than a deficiency of vitamin A.

Ray often recommends that progesterone be used to ease symptoms, but that the real underlying cause needs to be found if it helps. If low estrogen is truly a problem, vitamin A will allow for natural production of it an appropriate level. It is unlikely to be the case that you would ever need supplemental estrogen. Detoxifying estrogen and improving the other hormones is a better strategy. Get enough good quality protein like milk and cheese, coconut oil, sugar, fruit etc, have a carrot salad once a day, and eliminate irritating foods. Then introduce vitamin A. Liver is ideal, because there is an abundance of vitamin E there too. Vitamin E can be a great place to start too - because it spares vitamin A from being wasted, so if the situation improved, it can indicate that a poor vitamin A status/poor metabolism (they are almost synonymous) is the problem.

I agree that testosterone might be the most important in vaginal dryness. It certainly is huge for sex drive, in my experience.

Thanks, she eats a lot of fruit, cheese and coconut oil. Definitely can try for more A, E
 
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CrispyBacon

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The estrone seems high. What is the lab range and what are the unit of measurement?
Units say pg/ml
There is no reference range shown on the results
It shows: Estrogens fractionated as the heading then
Estrone Lvl 204
Estrogen Tot 240
estradiol (E2) 36
 
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CrispyBacon

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How's the nutrition? I don't know that it makes sense to focus on hormone manipulation without also considering the nutritional context.
There could be specific deficiencies, as suggested above.

What are body temps and resting pulse like? Any thyroid lab values?

One way to get night sweats is to run out of liver glycogen in the night.
Estrogen tends to lower metabolism and temperature set point, and maybe increase lipolysis. Lower metabolism means burning through fuel more slowly. Lipolysis means burning more fat and therefore likely burning through sugar more slowly. So they could both mean being able to go longer at night before blood sugar crash -> adrenaline surge -> sweats and/or wakefulness.
I don't know if these are factors at play for your wife, but if so, more sugar (pref from fruit, milk, etc) through the day and maybe in the evening or when waking in the night may be helpful. I think this is one of the things that helped eliminate my night sweats a couple of years ago. (I'm pre- or peri-menopausal.)

Her last tests that show thyroid labs:
T4- Thyroxine 8.3 ug/DL 4.5-12.0
T3- 105 NG/DL 83-200
TSH 1810 uIU/mL o.450-4.500
Anti Thyroglobn. <20 IU/ML 0-40
TPO Auto AB 7 IU/mL 0-34

Not sure which all are thyroid related
 
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CrispyBacon

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The idea about any hormonal situation (e.g. early menopause) where you cannot manufacture sufficient hormones as being an inbuilt error or something that just happens out of bad luck is hard to overcome mentally when the medical establishment tell people it is that way. It is important to remember that - Ray's most important message is that the body is almost always wanting to heal itself - you just need to figure out what is missing, or interfering with those processes. The trick here is usually vitamin A (or the substance that it produces, pregnenolone). You need a good metabolic diet to handle the A, but when you can, you would be able to manufacture all of the steroid hormones, without need for supplemental aids, e.g. estrogen, progesterone, testosterone etc. The problem is twofold, however - many people have too poorer diet to handle vitamin A without it being anti-metabolic, and many people just don't eat enough of it. Pregnenolone is almost as good, but vitamin A has many other good roles too which make focusing on it important.

Does she eat sugar or fruit? Cholesterol is the other factor that could be missing, but it is less likely than a deficiency of vitamin A.

Ray often recommends that progesterone be used to ease symptoms, but that the real underlying cause needs to be found if it helps. If low estrogen is truly a problem, vitamin A will allow for natural production of it an appropriate level. It is unlikely to be the case that you would ever need supplemental estrogen. Detoxifying estrogen and improving the other hormones is a better strategy. Get enough good quality protein like milk and cheese, coconut oil, sugar, fruit etc, have a carrot salad once a day, and eliminate irritating foods. Then introduce vitamin A. Liver is ideal, because there is an abundance of vitamin E there too. Vitamin E can be a great place to start too - because it spares vitamin A from being wasted, so if the situation improved, it can indicate that a poor vitamin A status/poor metabolism (they are almost synonymous) is the problem.

I agree that testosterone might be the most important in vaginal dryness. It certainly is huge for sex drive, in my experience.

Guess I'll have to find testosterone. Look out Gold's Gym dude, here I come
 
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CrispyBacon

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I think the general thought here is that estrogen is bad when its dominant. I also think a lot of folks here are a bit hyperbolic about estrogen, which leads others to think it needs to be eliminated altogether. That of course would be no bueno. Estrogen is useful and necessary in things like pregnancy. It becomes problematic when it dominates and that seems to be the norm these days. In your wife's case it seems odd that she supps both estrogen and progesterone.

Medical folks told here it is because she isn't producing enough of either
 

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