If Estrogen Is So Bad, Why Does It Immediately Help

[Jennifer]

For me personally, as a very lean 45-year-old woman, estrogen dominance is just not a problem for me, in fact it's the opposite. PEAT and Georgi maybe correct as far as unhealthy, overweight, individuals with pre-existing conditions regarding estrogen and cortisol issues, but for me this simply hasn't been the case.

I’ve been questioning for some time now if my life-long leanness plays a role in my experience with progesterone, which seems to be in the minority here. My doctor put me on bio-identical estrogen just after my spine collapsed and it was the first time in my life I experienced depression—to the point that I almost committed suicide—and it completely vanished as soon as I stopped taking it (against my doctor’s wishes) so I know estrogen is not good for me, but as I’ve mentioned in the Female Corner thread, progesterone gives me an uncomfortably high libido even at small doses, and I only know of two other women here who shared the same experience, and they were in their 20s, which I am not. It also causes me to menstruate every two weeks. Like you, LadyRae, I’ve always been thin at 99 lb (45 kg), and dangerously underweight when I was ill—67 lb (30 kg) at my lowest—I’ve never had high prolactin, in fact, it was as low as 7 at one point, so I’m doubtful that my estrogen stores are high. What I actually needed was thyroid. It made everything better for me, and I only wish I had been able to convince my doctors to prescribe it to me sooner, but my condition flew under the radar because I’m thin.

 

[Ildikó]

@GreekDemiGod
Right, I get it... And it's not like I didn't give progesterone and pregnenalone a try, I tried many different types of each and different dosing...

Yesterday I posted in the "elastin" thread about my experience and I linked to a couple studies online showing that topical estrogen therapy increases collagen and elastin production and decreases fine lines, not just a little bit but very obviously in a 6-month trial. I definitely stirred up some controversy in that thread. But I think it's important to note:

There is a lot of information out there and it's easy to get dogmatic and religious to one mindset.

For me personally, as a very lean 45-year-old woman, estrogen dominance is just not a problem for me, in fact it's the opposite. PEAT and Georgi maybe correct as far as unhealthy, overweight, individuals with pre-existing conditions regarding estrogen and cortisol issues, but for me this simply hasn't been the case.

I think it was mentioned by Dr Peat in one of his One Radio Network interview with Patrick Timpone that using hrt with estrogen is ok as long as you do have a brake and opposing it with progesterone. Probably he meant to cycle the estrogen and progesterone. I am postmenopausal 62 years old, had total hysterectomy, both ovaries removed also 3 years ago. Unfortunately i still suffer with hot flushes and night sweats, i do eat plenty of healthy carbs, I am normal weight and eating healthy, no pufa, carrot salad, coconut oil etc. I took Stressnon pregnenolone in various doses and also Progest-e, dhea capsules. I also took 300 mg micronized progesterone which helped with my insomnia but i feel like i have put a bit of weight on being on it. I have read in one of Dr. Peats book where he mentioned the 300 mg oral micronized progesterone for sleeping. Anyways i stoped these for now. I also suffer with vaginal pain,dryness, loss of libido . When i use estriol vaginal cream my pain goes away in just one day, so i am planning to use it in a one day micronized progesterone, the next day vaginal estriol fashion for 3 weeks and i shall keep a week off of both. My serum estradiol is low, progesterone is low, testosterone is nearly 0. Currently taking dyphenhydramine for my insomnia. I beleive diet will not help on my hormone levels unfortunately.

 

[Peatress]

I think it was mentioned by Dr Peat in one of his One Radio Network interview with Patrick Timpone that using hrt with estrogen is ok as long as you do have a brake and opposing it with progesterone. Probably he meant to cycle the estrogen and progesterone. I am postmenopausal 62 years old, had total hysterectomy, both ovaries removed also 3 years ago. Unfortunately i still suffer with hot flushes and night sweats, i do eat plenty of healthy carbs, I am normal weight and eating healthy, no pufa, carrot salad, coconut oil etc. I took Stressnon pregnenolone in various doses and also Progest-e, dhea capsules. I also took 300 mg micronized progesterone which helped with my insomnia but i feel like i have put a bit of weight on being on it. I have read in one of Dr. Peats book where he mentioned the 300 mg oral micronized progesterone for sleeping. Anyways i stoped these for now. I also suffer with vaginal pain,dryness, loss of libido . When i use estriol vaginal cream my pain goes away in just one day, so i am planning to use it in a one day micronized progesterone, the next day vaginal estriol fashion for 3 weeks and i shall keep a week off of both. My serum estradiol is low, progesterone is low, testosterone is nearly 0. Currently taking dyphenhydramine for my insomnia. I beleive diet will not help on my hormone levels unfortunately.

I can't imagine Dr. Peat saying hrt with estrogen is ok.

I’ve been questioning for some time now if my life-long leanness plays a role in my experience with progesterone, which seems to be in the minority here. My doctor put me on bio-identical estrogen just after my spine collapsed and it was the first time in my life I experienced depression—to the point that I almost committed suicide—and it completely vanished as soon as I stopped taking it (against my doctor’s wishes) so I know estrogen is not good for me, but as I’ve mentioned in the Female Corner thread, progesterone gives me an uncomfortably high libido even at small doses, and I only know of two other women here who shared the same experience, and they were in their 20s, which I am not. It also causes me to menstruate every two weeks. Like you, LadyRae, I’ve always been thin at 99 lb (45 kg), and dangerously underweight when I was ill—67 lb (30 kg) at my lowest—I’ve never had high prolactin, in fact, it was as low as 7 at one point, so I’m doubtful that my estrogen stores are high. What I actually needed was thyroid. It made everything better for me, and I only wish I had been able to convince my doctors to prescribe it to me sooner, but my condition flew under the radar because I’m thin.

I was tall and lean and estrogen dominate. I was clearly hypo but my doctors kept telling me my thyroid was fine.

 

[LadyRae]

I think it was mentioned by Dr Peat in one of his One Radio Network interview with Patrick Timpone that using hrt with estrogen is ok as long as you do have a brake and opposing it with progesterone. Probably he meant to cycle the estrogen and progesterone. I am postmenopausal 62 years old, had total hysterectomy, both ovaries removed also 3 years ago. Unfortunately i still suffer with hot flushes and night sweats, i do eat plenty of healthy carbs, I am normal weight and eating healthy, no pufa, carrot salad, coconut oil etc. I took Stressnon pregnenolone in various doses and also Progest-e, dhea capsules. I also took 300 mg micronized progesterone which helped with my insomnia but i feel like i have put a bit of weight on being on it. I have read in one of Dr. Peats book where he mentioned the 300 mg oral micronized progesterone for sleeping. Anyways i stoped these for now. I also suffer with vaginal pain,dryness, loss of libido . When i use estriol vaginal cream my pain goes away in just one day, so i am planning to use it in a one day micronized progesterone, the next day vaginal estriol fashion for 3 weeks and i shall keep a week off of both. My serum estradiol is low, progesterone is low, testosterone is nearly 0. Currently taking dyphenhydramine for my insomnia. I beleive diet will not help on my hormone levels unfortunately.

Hi! Thanks for this! I'm 45, still cycling mostly regularly. I started the estradiol, estriol cream about a month ago and today I started my period, so it's a 26-day cycle. When I was trying to supplement progesterone on my periods would sometimes be two weeks apart or 21 days, totally wonky.

Also, regarding sleep, this past week I should have been having really bad insomnia which has been common for me for years in my luteal phase. But instead I have been sleeping eight or nine hours a night since starting the estrogen cream. .

I, too, experienced water retention and weight gain from progesterone and I'm not going to be using that anymore. I think there's a lot of people in here that have questions and concerns about estrogen but don't feel comfortable bringing it up because of all of the negative backlash...

 

[sladerunner69]

The curve is U-shaped, it is not linear. High estrogen is of course bad, but so is low. There is a sweet spot and for everyone that is probably a bit different depending on many factors. Thus, experimentation is necessary if you are trying optimize health & well-being.

 

[LadyRae]

The curve is U-shaped, it is not linear. High estrogen is of course bad, but so is low. There is a sweet spot and for everyone that is probably a bit different depending on many factors. Thus, experimentation is necessary if you are trying optimize health & well-being.

Thank you!

 

[Peatress]

For some reason I can't edit my post above to add this. @Ildikó

Here Dr. Peat is talking about the use of any form of estrogen


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AEGpcH14Pk&t=1815s

 

[snappy99]

Hi! Thanks for this! I'm 45, still cycling mostly regularly. I started the estradiol, estriol cream about a month ago and today I started my period, so it's a 26-day cycle. When I was trying to supplement progesterone on my periods would sometimes be two weeks apart or 21 days, totally wonky.

Also, regarding sleep, this past week I should have been having really bad insomnia which has been common for me for years in my luteal phase. But instead I have been sleeping eight or nine hours a night since starting the estrogen cream. .

I, too, experienced water retention and weight gain from progesterone and I'm not going to be using that anymore. I think there's a lot of people in here that have questions and concerns about estrogen but don't feel comfortable bringing it up because of all of the negative backlash...

I think like with all things, people get very dogmatic but there are exceptions and some people definitely do need estrogen. For example, I understand that women with full hysterectomies (with ovary removal) definitely need both estrogen and progesterone as their bodies simply won’t produce enough (even menopausal ovaries produce some estrogen). Otherwise health problems can develop.

I have “estrogen dominant” conditions so I am pretty sure I would not benefit from more, but that doesn’t mean that others don’t need it. Too much estrogen is bad, but so is too little.

 

[youngsinatra]

In severe hypothyroidism or metabolic breakdown, overall steroidogenesis is low (due to low mitochondrial activity) and all of the down-stream hormones can get to low levels — even things like cortisol, aldosterone or estrogen. (the so-called stress hormones)

If even these stress-adaptive hormones become low, then you are in a really bad position. Likely bed-bound with severe CFS, adrenal insufficiency etc.

They are important. Optimizing thyroid/mitochondrial function will likely improve the hormonal status. You shouldn’t blindy take hormon-lowering substances. Everything has it‘s given context.

 

[Peatress]

I think like with all things, people get very dogmatic but there are exceptions and some people definitely do need estrogen. For example, I understand that women with full hysterectomies (with ovary removal) definitely need both estrogen and progesterone as their bodies simply won’t produce enough (even menopausal ovaries produce some estrogen). Otherwise health problems can develop.

I have “estrogen dominant” conditions so I am pretty sure I would not benefit from more, but that doesn’t mean that others don’t need it. Too much estrogen is bad, but so is too little.

All tissues in the body can produce estrogen so a hysterectomies does not necessarily mean low estrogen.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew9n6hdGirs&t=4465s

 

[Jennifer]

I was tall and lean and estrogen dominate. I was clearly hypo but my doctors kept telling me my thyroid was fine.

It sounds like your thyroid values were in range, huh? Because mine were in range and I was underweight, I was written off as having an eating disorder. I hadn’t found Ray’s work yet so I had no clue it was my thyroid, but I was a classic case. My wisdom teeth hadn’t even come in until I started supplementing thyroid in my early 30s. Was it that your estrogen level was high or your progesterone level too low? When I supplemented Progest-E, my doctor said my level was that of a pregnant woman and that I needed to lower my dose. I had already lowered it to a couple drops a day because it was causing me to bleed so much so I stopped taking it and my cycle normalized. Even when I was on a fruitarian diet, my progesterone level came back higher and my estrogen and prolactin lower.

 

[youngsinatra]

It sounds like your thyroid values were in range, huh? Because mine were in range and I was underweight, I was written off as having an eating disorder. I hadn’t found Ray’s work yet so I had no clue it was my thyroid, but I was a classic case. My wisdom teeth hadn’t even come in until I started supplementing thyroid in my early 30s. Was it that your estrogen level was high or your progesterone level too low? When I supplemented Progest-E, my doctor said my level was that of a pregnant woman and that I needed to lower my dose. I had already lowered it to a couple drops a day because it was causing me to bleed so much so I stopped taking it and my cycle normalized. Even when I was on a fruitarian diet, my progesterone level came back higher and my estrogen and prolactin lower.

So interesting regarding your thyroid experience.

My doctors say I don’t have hypothyroidism, but I have all the symptoms, my blood work is suboptimal to Ray‘s standards (TSH 2.9; fT3, fT4 midrange) and my pulse and BT were low (50 bpm; 35.5 C) and I respond favorably to supplementing thyroid hormone. (my bodytemperature normalized since)

 

[Peatress]

It sounds like your thyroid values were in range, huh? Because mine were in range and I was underweight, I was written off as having an eating disorder. I hadn’t found Ray’s work yet so I had no clue it was my thyroid, but I was a classic case. My wisdom teeth hadn’t even come in until I started supplementing thyroid in my early 30s. Was it that your estrogen level was high or your progesterone level too low? When I supplemented Progest-E, my doctor said my level was that of a pregnant woman and that I needed to lower my dose. I had already lowered it to a couple drops a day because it was causing me to bleed so much so I stopped taking it and my cycle normalized. Even when I was on a fruitarian diet, my progesterone level came back higher and my estrogen and prolactin lower.

Yes my thyroid numbers were "normal" TSH around 2. I didn't know at the time to check my waking temperature. I suspect my progesterone was too low because I was having very heavy menstrual bleeding. I landed on Ray Peat's website when I was searching the net for solutions and eventually found the forum. Progesterone/vitamin E helped the bleeding but that was just the beginning. I won't go into my complicated medical history but I will say I am still healing from lots of wrong medical choices and injuries.

 

[Jennifer]

So interesting regarding your thyroid experience.

My doctors say I don’t have hypothyroidism, but I have all the symptoms, my blood work is suboptimal to Ray‘s standards (TSH 2.9; fT3, fT4 midrange) and my pulse and BT were low (50 bpm; 35.5 C) and I respond favorably to supplementing thyroid hormone. (my bodytemperature normalized since)

I’m so glad you’re responding well to thyroid supplementation. It’s terrible that such classic symptoms of thyroid and adrenal dysfunction aren’t enough to convince doctors but sadly, it seems they just don’t know any better. Your previously low pulse and temp alone would have me suspecting hypothyroidism. I had an average BP of 85/50 and doctors thought it was excellent. Meanwhile, I was passing out daily. When I told them that it was due to my thyroid and adrenals, and even explained the process involved, their response to me was that there is no connection between blood pressure and thyroid and adrenal function. Out of desperation, I took an over-the-counter thyroid glandular and the syncope episodes stopped that day, and this finally convinced my doctor to prescribe me thyroid, despite my normal thyroid values.

Yes my thyroid numbers were "normal" TSH around 2. I didn't know at the time to check my waking temperature. I suspect my progesterone was too low because I was having very heavy menstrual bleeding. I landed on Ray Peat's website when I was searching the net for solutions and eventually found the forum. Progesterone/vitamin E helped the bleeding but that was just the beginning. I won't go into my complicated medical history but I will say I am still healing from lots of wrong medical choices and injuries.

I’m sorry you suffered from wrong medical choices. I understand having a complicated medical history so you have my empathy. I’m glad you found the forum, and progesterone/vitamin E helped with the bleeding. Progest-E stopped my mum’s chronic bleeding when she was hemorrhaging from uterine cancer, and it was nothing short of miraculous in treating the condition just prior to her hysterectomy.

 

[Ildikó]

For some reason I can't edit my post above to add this. @Ildikó

Here Dr. Peat is talking about the use of any form of estrogen


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AEGpcH14Pk&t=1815s

Thank you for your you tube interview, i did and still listen almost all of Dr Peats interviews, they are very useful.
These days both, bio identical progesterone and bio identical estrogen is made out of wild yam in the laboratories. They are called natural bio identical hormones.
I understand that there are harmful, toxic estrogens which can be find in sut, plastics etc. But is it not the main concern to take the natural bioidentical progesterone but not the progestin to oppose and to prevent to become estrogen dominant?
I have researched related studies on the pubmed but it is so contraversial to find the pro and anti estrogen articles.
As i have mentioned in my comment i definetly feel a huge help when using the small dose estriol vaginal cream. I have a pharmacist friend and it is easy to have vitamine e and a vaginal suppository in shea butter made for me. Dr. Peat has suggested this in one of his video.
So i am planing to use estriol vaginal cream and vitamine e,a supository in a 2 week on estriol cream and the rest of the 2 weeks on the vitamine supository.
Unfortunately i can not obtain DHEA vaginal supository, although this would be the ideal to use.
I am sorry if i made mistakes but the english is not my native language.

For some reason I can't edit my post above to add this. @Ildikó

Here Dr. Peat is talking about the use of any form of estrogen


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AEGpcH14Pk&t=1815s

 

[Peatress]

Thank you for your you tube interview, i did and still listen almost all of Dr Peats interviews, they are very useful.
These days both, bio identical progesterone and bio identical estrogen is made out of wild yam in the laboratories. They are called natural bio identical hormones.
I understand that there are harmful, toxic estrogens which can be find in sut, plastics etc. But is it not the main concern to take the natural bioidentical progesterone but not the progestin to oppose and to prevent to become estrogen dominant?
I have researched related studies on the pubmed but it is so contraversial to find the pro and anti estrogen articles.
As i have mentioned in my comment i definetly feel a huge help when using the small dose estriol vaginal cream. I have a pharmacist friend and it is easy to have vitamine e and a vaginal suppository in shea butter made for me. Dr. Peat has suggested this in one of his video.
So i am planing to use estriol vaginal cream and vitamine e,a supository in a 2 week on estriol cream and the rest of the 2 weeks on the vitamine supository.
Unfortunately i can not obtain DHEA vaginal supository, although this would be the ideal to use.
I am sorry if i made mistakes but the english is not my native language.

I think Ray has said progestins are not safe so yes it's better to use the bioidentical progesterone.

 

[Peatress]

Using estriol vaginal cream is your personal choice. It’s not something I’ve heard Dr Peat endorse. If it helps you and you believe it's safe then who can argue with that?

 

[Happycat]

Hi! Thanks for this! I'm 45, still cycling mostly regularly. I started the estradiol, estriol cream about a month ago and today I started my period, so it's a 26-day cycle. When I was trying to supplement progesterone on my periods would sometimes be two weeks apart or 21 days, totally wonky.

Also, regarding sleep, this past week I should have been having really bad insomnia which has been common for me for years in my luteal phase. But instead I have been sleeping eight or nine hours a night since starting the estrogen cream. .

I, too, experienced water retention and weight gain from progesterone and I'm not going to be using that anymore. I think there's a lot of people in here that have questions and concerns about estrogen but don't feel comfortable bringing it up because of all of the negative backlash...

I am thanful that you shared your experience with estriol and estradiol. (I went and read the elastin thread as well).
Do you not take any progrsterone at all? I know that Estrogen should always be taken with Progesterone.

I am 47 and currently on Progesterone, I take a lot of it in topical and oral form. It is helping with a lot of things, but things that it is not helping with are: joint pain, skin elasticity which is getting worse, V dryness.
I don't know if I need Estrogen, maybe I do but too scared to try it.

Even Dr Peat in his book From Pms to menopause says: most women in menopause don't need estrogen. He doesnt say no-one needs it.

 

[LadyRae]

I am thanful that you shared your experience with estriol and estradiol. (I went and read the elastin thread as well).
Do you not take any progrsterone at all? I know that Estrogen should always be taken with Progesterone.

I am 47 and currently on Progesterone, I take a lot of it in topical and oral form. It is helping with a lot of things, but things that it is not helping with are: joint pain, skin elasticity which is getting worse, V dryness.
I don't know if I need Estrogen, maybe I do but too scared to try it.

Even Dr Peat in his book From Pms to menopause says: most women in menopause don't need estrogen. He doesnt say no-one needs it.

Hello! Thank you very much for your comment, I appreciate your supportive input...

I don't take any progesterone at all. It immediately makes me bloated, I retain water in my legs, I get anhedonia and laziness and brain fog.

Yes, I'm aware of what Peat says about estrogen. Apparently he thinks that the arms and legs are making more estrogen than ovaries, I would even go so far as to say I think he is wrong about estrogen. At least for women like me with lower body fat. It's very possible that the majority of women our age or estrogen dominant but I don't think that's my experience at all.

The estrogen cream will definitely help those symptoms that you mentioned. A quick Google search will come up with loads and loads of studies supporting this.

 

[Happycat]

Hello! Thank you very much for your comment, I appreciate your supportive input...

I don't take any progesterone at all. It immediately makes me bloated, I retain water in my legs, I get anhedonia and laziness and brain fog.

Yes, I'm aware of what Peat says about estrogen. Apparently he thinks that the arms and legs are making more estrogen than ovaries, I would even go so far as to say I think he is wrong about estrogen. At least for women like me with lower body fat. It's very possible that the majority of women our age or estrogen dominant but I don't think that's my experience at all.

The estrogen cream will definitely help those symptoms that you mentioned. A quick Google search will come up with loads and loads of studies supporting this.

Oh the brain fog yes, forgot about that. And forgetting things