If Estrogen Is So Bad, Why Does It Immediately Help

[CrispyBacon]

I guess you've read Peat's articles on estrogen and progesterone? Including the one about tissue-bound estrogen in aging?

I will look for it

 

[tara]

I will look for it

Several related articles here:
Ray Peat

 

[haidut]

Units say pg/ml
There is no reference range shown on the results
It shows: Estrogens fractionated as the heading then
Estrone Lvl 204
Estrogen Tot 240
estradiol (E2) 36

I think that may be a bit high. The ranges that I have for female estrone are:

Follicular 10-120
Midcycle 49-210
Luteal 16-150

When was the estrone test done, cycle-wise? Can the lab also test estrone sulfate (E1S)? If it can, then that would be the test I would do next.

 

[DaveFoster]

Also beta-endorphins work in a similar way to how haidut mentioned for estrogen.

Initially, you feel great, but you will develop nosebleeds, chest pain, aching bones, and general fatigue in a week or two depending on the concentration.

First hand experience.

 

[Ulla]

Her last tests that show thyroid labs:
T4- Thyroxine 8.3 ug/DL 4.5-12.0
T3- 105 NG/DL 83-200
TSH 1810 uIU/mL o.450-4.500
Anti Thyroglobn. <20 IU/ML 0-40
TPO Auto AB 7 IU/mL 0-34

Not sure which all are thyroid related

Without decimal??

 

[CrispyBacon]

Without decimal??

1.810
with decimal
(Our copy looks like a copy of a copy)

 

[CrispyBacon]

I think that may be a bit high. The ranges that I have for female estrone are:

Follicular 10-120
Midcycle 49-210
Luteal 16-150

When was the estrone test done, cycle-wise? Can the lab also test estrone sulfate (E1S)? If it can, then that would be the test I would do next.

She is not having cycles (at least cycles as they used to be)
What would be indications of cycles without the regular indications?

We will go for Estrone sulfate test at next blood test

 

[haidut]

She is not having cycles (at least cycles as they used to be)
What would be indications of cycles without the regular indications?

We will go for Estrone sulfate test at next blood test

Well, if she is menopausal the estrone should be <65, and a reading of 204 is really high. Btw, low dose DHEA can treat vaginal dryness a lot more safely than estrogen.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160105101653.htm

"...Without hormonal treatment after menopause, vaginal tissues atrophy, the lining thins and secretes less and less fluid, and the pH becomes more alkaline, which leads to discomfort with sex as well as increased susceptibility to vaginal infections and urinary problems for many women. In fact, 84% of the women in this clinical trial had moderate to severe vaginal dryness. But compared with the 157 women who used a placebo, the 325 women who used the daily 0.5% DHEA (6.5 mg) ovules enjoyed significant improvements after 12 weeks. Their scores on a scale of 0 to 3 for pain with sex dropped a significant 0.36 points more than for the women who used the placebo. The women who used DHEA also had significantly less thinning of the vaginal lining, showing an 8.44% greater increase in lining cells called "superficial cells" and a 27.7% greater decrease in parabasal cells, the immature precursors of the superficial cells. The DHEA users' moderate to severe vaginal dryness also improved by a significant 0.27 points more (also on a scale of 0 to 3). Gynecologists who examined the women saw 86% to 121% better improvements in vaginal secretions, integrity of the vaginal lining, lining thickness, and tissue color in the women who used DHEA, and their vaginal pH shifted 0.66 points more toward acidity."

 

[Stilgar]

She might also consider the b-vitamins - especially b2 and b1. Riboflavin is essential to good use of vitamin A, and is essential in the detoxification of excess estrogen. It happens to be abundant in liver, and also eggs and dairy.

In addition - blood values of estrogen are often a poor indicator of tissue stored estrogen. She might be abundant in estrogen in the tissues, but it shows up in a blood test that she is deficient, and so medical folks assume she is not producing it.

 

[Tourist]

Do u know the normal range for testosterone for women?

Estrogen plays an important role in libido so if she is taking enough estrogen to bring her serum labs into more normal range then I can see that being a reason for benefit. Progesterone alone would further suppress her already low serum E2 though it may have other benefits. Her estrone is likely high, which is causing a lot of problems. That's a much harder and longer problem to solve. I wonder if her testosterone is in normal female range. Not sure how endos see this, but it makes sense to me for small testosterone supplementation in order to endogenously increase serum estradiol to normal levels while also balancing low testosterone. Testosterone is important for women too and likely underappreciated much like some of the beneficial roles of estrogen in men. Naturally though, I'd first try pregnenolone and DHEA while trying to rid her body of PUFA and tissue bound estrone.

Ironically, this reminded me of an anecdote Dave Asprey said years ago about how he helped his wife's vaginal dryness. He would put the tiniest amount of his testosterone gel on his wife's labia and her libido, and "wetness", would go crazy with desire.

 

[Tourist]

Is there any adequate way to measure female hormone levels?

She might also consider the b-vitamins - especially b2 and b1. Riboflavin is essential to good use of vitamin A, and is essential in the detoxification of excess estrogen. It happens to be abundant in liver, and also eggs and dairy.

In addition - blood values of estrogen are often a poor indicator of tissue stored estrogen. She might be abundant in estrogen in the tissues, but it shows up in a blood test that she is deficient, and so medical folks assume she is not producing it.

 

[NathanK]

Do u know the normal range for testosterone for women?

Sorry, i do not. Should be easy to google to find general ranges. Each lab testing company has their own based on the median of their test takers.

 

[Lilac]

pregnenolone ...stopped her hot flashes cold.

I was being bothered by hot flashes in the past month. After reading this post, I decided to try pregnenolone. It seems to be working well for me. I would say an 80 to 90 percent improvement. Thanks!

 

[lollipop]

I was being bothered by hot flashes in the past month. After reading this post, I decided to try pregnenolone. It seems to be working well for me. I would say an 80 to 90 percent improvement. Thanks!

How much did you use @Lilac?

 

[Lilac]

I am taking one 50 mg Swanson Ultra Super-Strength Pregnenolone.

 

[Tiffany]

Estrogen plays an important role in libido so if she is taking enough estrogen to bring her serum labs into more normal range then I can see that being a reason for benefit. Progesterone alone would further suppress her already low serum E2 though it may have other benefits. Her estrone is likely high, which is causing a lot of problems. That's a much harder and longer problem to solve. I wonder if her testosterone is in normal female range. Not sure how endos see this, but it makes sense to me for small testosterone supplementation in order to endogenously increase serum estradiol to normal levels while also balancing low testosterone. Testosterone is important for women too and likely underappreciated much like some of the beneficial roles of estrogen in men. Naturally though, I'd first try pregnenolone and DHEA while trying to rid her body of PUFA and tissue bound estrone.

Ironically, this reminded me of an anecdote Dave Asprey said years ago about how he helped his wife's vaginal dryness. He would put the tiniest amount of his testosterone gel on his wife's labia and her libido, and "wetness", would go crazy with desire.

Hi
I had low T last time I had labs years ago. It was not low before that. I had vulvar pain since taking accutane as a teen. I have been unable to have a normal sex life. As I progress through my 40's the pain is getting worse. Dryness set in a few years after an early menopause. I was told I "sort of have pcos". Estrogen cream used on/around vagina reduces the pain quickly. It's not enough relief to have painless sex, but i have never used it consistently. I am afraid to use it becuase of what I learned from RP and other researchers over the past decades as I've tried to find a solution to these female problems.

Were you thinking one could use pregnenolone and dhea vaginally? How would one get it and what dose would you think could help? How soon do you think one would know if it's working? I responded with unpleasant effects when I took these orally so I don't want to go there again, but maybe a low dose locally would help without the sides. I appreciate any ideas you can share. Thank you!

 

[LadyRae]

Hi
I had low T last time I had labs years ago. It was not low before that. I had vulvar pain since taking accutane as a teen. I have been unable to have a normal sex life. As I progress through my 40's the pain is getting worse. Dryness set in a few years after an early menopause. I was told I "sort of have pcos". Estrogen cream used on/around vagina reduces the pain quickly. It's not enough relief to have painless sex, but i have never used it consistently. I am afraid to use it becuase of what I learned from RP and other researchers over the past decades as I've tried to find a solution to these female problems.

Were you thinking one could use pregnenolone and dhea vaginally? How would one get it and what dose would you think could help? How soon do you think one would know if it's working? I responded with unpleasant effects when I took these orally so I don't want to go there again, but maybe a low dose locally would help without the sides. I appreciate any ideas you can share. Thank you!

Hi, I'm 45. Estrogen is definitely demonized around here. That said, ever since I discovered Ray Peat I've tried various different progesterone supplements and pregnenolone... They always made me very foggy and fat and bloated, with a lot of water retention... Within just a few days even.

Over the past few months I've done a lot of my own research and my symptoms amazingly point to low estrogen actually... I have suspected this for some time as I am very lean at 5 ft 11, 130 lb. I kept wondering how I could possibly be estrogen dominant without extra fat. The irregular periods, visible capillaries on my face, insomnia, dry hair and skin, moodiness, lack of libido, random sweating events in the morning and sometimes at night, light /irregular/ short cycles/periods- - all point to low estrogen. My OBGYN brought it up a couple years ago but I dismissed her unfortunately.

So about three and a half weeks ago I started applying a bi-est topical cream every night before bed. 4 mg estriol, 1 mg estrodiol per pump. I also take a liquid DHEA supplement in the morning, 12 mg per squirt.

In Just 2 WEEKS, any red visible capillaries on my face disappeared, I'm sleeping through the night, my pants and shorts are looser although I don't actually weigh myself, my mood is better throughout the day and I don't have any random sweating episodes anymore. I have a lot more energy and vibrancy throughout the day and have been enjoying more intense workouts, something I haven't been able to enjoy for a few years. Also I've actually had a couple orgasms in my sleep that wake me up as they end

I've been very hesitant to bring this up within the forum because I don't want to get inundated with negativity, but the benefits are just so amazing and have occurred so quickly that I'm just speechless. If you get on the perimenopause subreddits there are tons of testimonials for women just like me.

 

[Peatress]

Is it possible that 12mg of DHEA is producing the beneficial effects being attributed to estrogen?

More threads on estrogen

Estrogen seems to make me feel better...

Estrogen And Menopause

How could Ray be so dogmatic about estrogen ?

Bioidentical Estrogen

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Hi, I'm 45. Estrogen is definitely demonized around here. That said, ever since I discovered Ray Peat I've tried various different progesterone supplements and pregnenolone... They always made me very foggy and fat and bloated, with a lot of water retention... Within just a few days even.

Over the past few months I've done a lot of my own research and my symptoms amazingly point to low estrogen actually... I have suspected this for some time as I am very lean at 5 ft 11, 130 lb. I kept wondering how I could possibly be estrogen dominant without extra fat. The irregular periods, visible capillaries on my face, insomnia, dry hair and skin, moodiness, lack of libido, random sweating events in the morning and sometimes at night, light /irregular/ short cycles/periods- - all point to low estrogen. My OBGYN brought it up a couple years ago but I dismissed her unfortunately.

So about three and a half weeks ago I started applying a bi-est topical cream every night before bed. 4 mg estriol, 1 mg estrodiol per pump. I also take a liquid DHEA supplement in the morning, 12 mg per squirt.

In Just 2 WEEKS, any red visible capillaries on my face disappeared, I'm sleeping through the night, my pants and shorts are looser although I don't actually weigh myself, my mood is better throughout the day and I don't have any random sweating episodes anymore. I have a lot more energy and vibrancy throughout the day and have been enjoying more intense workouts, something I haven't been able to enjoy for a few years. Also I've actually had a couple orgasms in my sleep that wake me up as they end

I've been very hesitant to bring this up within the forum because I don't want to get inundated with negativity, but the benefits are just so amazing and have occurred so quickly that I'm just speechless. If you get on the perimenopause subreddits there are tons of testimonials for women just like me.

Posts like this make me doubt Haidut/ Peat’s theories even more.

 

[LadyRae]

@GreekDemiGod
Right, I get it... And it's not like I didn't give progesterone and pregnenalone a try, I tried many different types of each and different dosing...

Yesterday I posted in the "elastin" thread about my experience and I linked to a couple studies online showing that topical estrogen therapy increases collagen and elastin production and decreases fine lines, not just a little bit but very obviously in a 6-month trial. I definitely stirred up some controversy in that thread. But I think it's important to note:

There is a lot of information out there and it's easy to get dogmatic and religious to one mindset.

For me personally, as a very lean 45-year-old woman, estrogen dominance is just not a problem for me, in fact it's the opposite. PEAT and Georgi maybe correct as far as unhealthy, overweight, individuals with pre-existing conditions regarding estrogen and cortisol issues, but for me this simply hasn't been the case.