If Endotoxin Isn't Under Control, Can't Anti Estrogen/cortisol Efforts Actually Increase Them?

[Peatogenic]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but would reducing estrogen and cortisol supplementarily possibly raise levels if the liver is having to detox them, but the liver is also congested with neurotoxin. Would it make more sense to work on just lowering endotoxin levels?

 

[Hans]

Lowering endotoxins should be the primary focus yes, but when you are under chronic endotoxin load, it would help to lower estrogen and cortisol as well to prevent them from being chronically elevated, while focusing on lowering endotoxins.
By lowering cortisol and estrogen, you prevent their synthesis, so they won't build up in the body.

 

[Mauritio]

I would agree with Hans. Endotoxin is often the root of all evil and the one thing suppressing metabolism ,damaging liver in the first place.
It's often not as simple as eating a bit of carrot everyday or one round of antibiotics and you're fine though...

 

[Peatogenic]

Yeah, I know what you mean..off the top of my head the endotoxin problem is not just removing inflammatory foods...because the endotoxin is not bad, just its dysregulation. Add to that that our body should naturally antagonize endotoxin (riboflavin?) Add to that the leakiness issue. Simply taking anti serotonin supplements wouldn't seem to lower endotoxin either, just enable one to feel like they have low endotoxin.

Anti endotoxin routes won't really heal the issue, either (like you say, the carrot). Maybe the cell leakiness is really the problem to focus on when even endotoxin is narrowed down as the root. I believe Ray talked about this in the herb doctor vitamin D podcast..

Vitamin E, cardiolipin, glycine, saturating the cells comes to mind.

 

[Mauritio]

Yeah, I know what you mean..off the top of my head the endotoxin problem is not just removing inflammatory foods...because the endotoxin is not bad, just its dysregulation. Add to that that our body should naturally antagonize endotoxin (riboflavin?) Add to that the leakiness issue. Simply taking anti serotonin supplements wouldn't seem to lower endotoxin either, just enable one to feel like they have low endotoxin.

Anti endotoxin routes won't really heal the issue, either (like you say, the carrot). Maybe the cell leakiness is really the problem to focus on when even endotoxin is narrowed down as the root. I believe Ray talked about this in the herb doctor vitamin D podcast..

Vitamin E, cardiolipin, glycine, saturating the cells comes to mind.

Totally agreed . You should check out the thread on mutaflor ,i feel like this might be very beneficial for the gut ,long term .

 

[Hans]

Yeah, I know what you mean..off the top of my head the endotoxin problem is not just removing inflammatory foods...because the endotoxin is not bad, just its dysregulation. Add to that that our body should naturally antagonize endotoxin (riboflavin?) Add to that the leakiness issue. Simply taking anti serotonin supplements wouldn't seem to lower endotoxin either, just enable one to feel like they have low endotoxin.

Anti endotoxin routes won't really heal the issue, either (like you say, the carrot). Maybe the cell leakiness is really the problem to focus on when even endotoxin is narrowed down as the root. I believe Ray talked about this in the herb doctor vitamin D podcast..

Vitamin E, cardiolipin, glycine, saturating the cells comes to mind.

You can lower endotoxins by focusing on improving your diet and gut. Remove all foods that are allergenic and inflammatory for you. If you still have issues, then you might have excess gut bacteria or a few pathological gut bacteria strains or parasites that need to be killed with herbs and other supplement. Only after getting rid of those will you be able to experience good digestive health and health in general.

 

[schultz]

Keeping dietary fat on the lower side would help immediately. Researchers use high-fat diets to study endotoxemia and gut permeability. Orange juice helps prevent that effect from a high-fat meal.

What researchers call 'high-fat' is not even really that high from what I remember. Something like 35% of calories? I'd have to check a few papers to verify that though.

 

[Peatogenic]

Keeping dietary fat on the lower side would help immediately. Researchers use high-fat diets to study endotoxemia and gut permeability. Orange juice helps prevent that effect from a high-fat meal.

What researchers call 'high-fat' is not even really that high from what I remember. Something like 35% of calories? I'd have to check a few papers to verify that though.

That's true. Low fat is not something I've pursued long term, but would definitely help endotoxin detox at least.

 

[EIRE24]

Keeping dietary fat on the lower side would help immediately. Researchers use high-fat diets to study endotoxemia and gut permeability. Orange juice helps prevent that effect from a high-fat meal.

What researchers call 'high-fat' is not even really that high from what I remember. Something like 35% of calories? I'd have to check a few papers to verify that though.

@CLASH would say the total opposite. He has improved all health and endotoxin markers by raising saturated fat. Fat is an antimicrobial especially saturated fat.

 

[Peatogenic]

@CLASH would say the total opposite. He has improved all health and endotoxin markers by raising saturated fat. Fat is an antimicrobial especially saturated fat.

That doesn't appear to be opposite. Just a fine tuning. It's both true that saturated fat is antimicrobial as well as a possible burden to liver.

 

[EIRE24]

That doesn't appear to be opposite. Just a fine tuning. It's both true that saturated fat is antimicrobial as well as a possible burden to liver.

Sorry I meant to reply to the person above your comment that said a low fat diet. Yes it would be the opposite. He was eating fat beyond 100 grams a day specifically beef tallow.

 

[Peatogenic]

Sorry I meant to reply to the person above your comment that said a low fat diet. Yes it would be the opposite. He was eating fat beyond 100 grams a day specifically beef tallow.

On the surface it's an opposite, but it's not a one or the other thing. It's not contradictory that saturated fat is both antimicrobial as well as a possible burden for the liver in certain amounts. There's so many variables like the ratio of saturated to unsaturated before switching to high saturated, the calorie state prior to going high saturated, the health of the liver, etc.

To take the 100g of beef tallow a day improvement to mean that high saturated fat is the only variable of reducing endotoxin would be too simplistic.

 

[CLASH]

On the surface it's an opposite, but it's not a one or the other thing. It's not contradictory that saturated fat is both antimicrobial as well as a possible burden for the liver in certain amounts. There's so many variables like the ratio of saturated to unsaturated before switching to high saturated, the calorie state prior to going high saturated, the health of the liver, etc.

To take the 100g of beef tallow a day improvement to mean that high saturated fat is the only variable of reducing endotoxin would be too simplistic.

Only in certain contexts is saturated fat a burden to the liver, and in the contexts I assume your getting at, a lot of other things, besides saturated fat, would also be a burden to the liver. Assuming a nutrient dense diet I see no issue with saturated fat for the liver.

Keeping dietary fat on the lower side would help immediately. Researchers use high-fat diets to study endotoxemia and gut permeability. Orange juice helps prevent that effect from a high-fat meal.

What researchers call 'high-fat' is not even really that high from what I remember. Something like 35% of calories? I'd have to check a few papers to verify that though.

Researchers do indeed use high fat diets to study gut permeability and endotoxemia, and what they found was that high saturated fat diets do not increase gut permeability. They actually strengthen the gut lining. The endotoxin gets into the body via saturated fats through a lipid raft mechanism i.e. the endotoxin is carried in with the fat. This does increase the endotoxin levels in the blood, but it does not increase inflammation, especially relative to endotoxin content. So, the saturated fats are actually protective on multiple levels. A low fat diet will not necessarily be protective of against endotoxin. It may actually make endotoxin issues worse as the saturated fat raises cholesterol and other factors such as chylomicrons, bile acids, lipase etc. that directly detoxify endotoxin. Combining saturated fats with fruits is an excellent way to combat endotoxin.

That's true. Low fat is not something I've pursued long term, but would definitely help endotoxin detox at least.

See above, I disagree with low fat helping endotoxin detox. By what mechanism?


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Besides the incomplete understanding of saturated fat increasing endotoxin transport into the bloodstream, the now defunct cholesterol hypothesis of saturated fat, and the idea of saturated fat (in many cases with lard being the main source of this saturated fat....) creating fatty liver in laboratory based diets with concurrent high intakes of pure sucrose, fructose, and/ or glucose, and deficiencies of certain nutrients, there are no other arguments against saturated fat, especially longer chain varieties such as butter, beef tallow, cocoa butter. There is also no historical evidence to support saturated fat intake in obesity, heart disease, fatty liver disease, endotoxemia etc. While the world was using mainly saturated fat sources there was very little metabolic disease, heart disease cancer etc. Butter and beef tallow have been used for centuries without issue. Even more so the current anecdotal evidence disagrees with these ideas. People go keto and lose 100s of lbs. Carnivore people are fixing autoimmune conditions and losing tons of weight as well. Paleo people are doing the same. All three of these communities are heavy on fat particularly the saturated variety while Peat forum members are on low fat diets getting obese, digestive issues and hormone imbalances. I'm not promoting a low carb, high fat diet, I'm definitely a fan of carbs, just saying lets look at the evidence here.

 

[Peatogenic]

Only in certain contexts is saturated fat a burden to the liver, and in the contexts I assume your getting at, a lot of other things, besides saturated fat, would also be a burden to the liver. Assuming a nutrient dense diet I see no issue with saturated fat for the liver.



Researchers do indeed use high fat diets to study gut permeability and endotoxemia, and what they found was that high saturated fat diets do not increase gut permeability. They actually strengthen the gut lining. The endotoxin gets into the body via saturated fats through a lipid raft mechanism i.e. the endotoxin is carried in with the fat. This does increase the endotoxin levels in the blood, but it does not increase inflammation, especially relative to endotoxin content. So, the saturated fats are actually protective on multiple levels. A low fat diet will not necessarily be protective of against endotoxin. It may actually make endotoxin issues worse as the saturated fat raises cholesterol and other factors such as chylomicrons, bile acids, lipase etc. that directly detoxify endotoxin. Combining saturated fats with fruits is an excellent way to combat endotoxin.



See above, I disagree with low fat helping endotoxin detox. By what mechanism?


----------------------------------------------------

Besides the incomplete understanding of saturated fat increasing endotoxin transport into the bloodstream, the now defunct cholesterol hypothesis of saturated fat, and the idea of saturated fat (in many cases with lard being the main source of this saturated fat....) creating fatty liver in laboratory based diets with concurrent high intakes of pure sucrose, fructose, and/ or glucose, and deficiencies of certain nutrients, there are no other arguments against saturated fat, especially longer chain varieties such as butter, beef tallow, cocoa butter. There is also no historical evidence to support saturated fat intake in obesity, heart disease, fatty liver disease, endotoxemia etc. While the world was using mainly saturated fat sources there was very little metabolic disease, heart disease cancer etc. Butter and beef tallow have been used for centuries without issue. Even more so the current anecdotal evidence disagrees with these ideas. People go keto and lose 100s of lbs. Carnivore people are fixing autoimmune conditions and losing tons of weight as well. Paleo people are doing the same. All three of these communities are heavy on fat particularly the saturated variety while Peat forum members are on low fat diets getting obese, digestive issues and hormone imbalances. I'm not promoting a low carb, high fat diet, I'm definitely a fan of carbs, just saying lets look at the evidence here.

I'm not against saturated fat, even in high amounts...i had just heard from Peat as well as a practitioner that you have to be careful with the fat ratio to other macronutrients, because of possible stalling the liver, not that saturated fat causes liver diseases, etc. I didn't know that this community was low fat, and I've never been low fat, except during a six month time frame. But again, it's about ratio is it not? I mean, I have had a high saturated fat diet of late and have noticed I feel better when my saturated fat is not high. And in the six month time frame where I had lower saturated fat (not non-existent by any means) I felt great, too. But maybe it's something else.

 

[theLaw]

I would agree with Hans. Endotoxin is often the root of all evil and the one thing suppressing metabolism ,damaging liver in the first place.
It's often not as simple as eating a bit of carrot everyday or one round of antibiotics and you're fine though...

I think the trick would be to clean out the gut while also cleaning out the liver.

Once the liver is back up and running properly, then endotoxin shouldn't be that much of an issue, and daily carrot might be sufficient.

However, to achieve this many people end up inadvertently lowering their calories (see lower fat/starches) while increasing metabolism (see caffeine), which is a recipe for disaster. A smarter approach might be to increase your sat fat including stearic acid (see choc/cocoa/butter) so that you have a higher pufa/sat ratio, and overall calories to handle the increase in metabolism, while also using a more powerful gut disinfectant short term (see camphosal/AC/antibiotics/stearic acid/vodka/etc).

To clean out the liver with caffeine or protein takes a pretty substantial dose, so that would require a lot of "nutrition" to support the increased energetic requirement.

 

[Peatogenic]

Will add that you can also raise calories with starches, fat is an easy go-to, but you can also be replete for increased metabolism via higher starch intake. But yeah, if that's the modus operandi here to lower both starch and fat, it seems unwise.

I remember Ray saying that adding saturated fat to starches makes them more digestible, but for my own body I perceive that I feel better when starch doesn't become a butter carrier. (Except grain starch seems to be an exception, specifically croissants. And I discovered this before reading the new thread here on croissants).

 

[lampofred]

I think if thyroid is low then eating high saturated fat can increase endotoxin because high fat slows down digestion. Just a guess though, I don't think I've seen Dr. Peat explicitly say that.

And anti serotonin/cortisol supplements often increase adrenaline which lowers blood flow to intestine, which could result in increased endotoxin.

 

[CLASH]

I'm not against saturated fat, even in high amounts...i had just heard from Peat as well as a practitioner that you have to be careful with the fat ratio to other macronutrients, because of possible stalling the liver, not that saturated fat causes liver diseases, etc. I didn't know that this community was low fat, and I've never been low fat, except during a six month time frame. But again, it's about ratio is it not? I mean, I have had a high saturated fat diet of late and have noticed I feel better when my saturated fat is not high. And in the six month time frame where I had lower saturated fat (not non-existent by any means) I felt great, too. But maybe it's something else.

There needs to be adequate protein and nutrients to properly process saturated fat to some extent. But even then I think it will take quite a while to stall out the liver. I haven't seen anyone actually stall out thier liver with saturated fat. A low protein, high saturated fat, high refined sucrose diet is not a good idea. Theres not enough choline, certain amino acids and b vitamins to properly process everything appropriately.
Whats your saturated fat source?

I think if thyroid is low then eating high saturated fat can increase endotoxin because high fat slows down digestion. Just a guess though, I don't think I've seen Dr. Peat explicitly say that.

And anti serotonin/cortisol supplements often increase adrenaline which lowers blood flow to intestine, which could result in increased endotoxin.

Fat may slow gastric emptying but it actually enhances digestion by inducing cholecystokinin to induce the release of gastric acid, pancreatic enzymes, and bile acids. It also activates peristalsis of the intestine. In my experience fat actually enhances digestion overall, it doesnt actually slow it down. Opiate peptides from dairy, wheat, rice and soy, very low fat diets, very high protein diets, and certain types of starches can definitely slow down digestion though. I currently have a bowel movement after each meal. The people I have talked with usually increase bowel frequency to 2x-3x per day when adjusting thier diet.

 

[Peatogenic]

There needs to be adequate protein and nutrients to properly process saturated fat to some extent. But even then I think it will take quite a while to stall out the liver. I haven't seen anyone actually stall out thier liver with saturated fat. A low protein, high saturated fat, high refined sucrose diet is not a good idea. Theres not enough choline, certain amino acids and b vitamins to properly process everything appropriately.
Whats your saturated fat source?



Fat may slow gastric emptying but it actually enhances digestion by inducing cholecystokinin to induce the release of gastric acid, pancreatic enzymes, and bile acids. It also activates peristalsis of the intestine. In my experience fat actually enhances digestion overall, it doesnt actually slow it down. Opiate peptides from dairy, wheat, rice and soy, very low fat diets, very high protein diets, and certain types of starches can definitely slow down digestion though. I currently have a bowel movement after each meal. The people I have talked with usually increase bowel frequency to 2x-3x per day when adjusting thier diet.

But the discussion is about endotoxin, not digestion, right? Detoxification of endotoxin, not peristalsis, etc. My SFA comes from butter, eggs, lamb or beef fat, and sometimes cream.

 

[YourUniverse]

There needs to be adequate protein and nutrients to properly process saturated fat to some extent. But even then I think it will take quite a while to stall out the liver. I haven't seen anyone actually stall out thier liver with saturated fat. A low protein, high saturated fat, high refined sucrose diet is not a good idea. Theres not enough choline, certain amino acids and b vitamins to properly process everything appropriately.
Whats your saturated fat source?



Fat may slow gastric emptying but it actually enhances digestion by inducing cholecystokinin to induce the release of gastric acid, pancreatic enzymes, and bile acids. It also activates peristalsis of the intestine. In my experience fat actually enhances digestion overall, it doesnt actually slow it down. Opiate peptides from dairy, wheat, rice and soy, very low fat diets, very high protein diets, and certain types of starches can definitely slow down digestion though. I currently have a bowel movement after each meal. The people I have talked with usually increase bowel frequency to 2x-3x per day when adjusting thier diet.

What do you think is the most common cause of endotoxic burden, and what is the best long-term solution? Saturated fat + fruit is noted.