Idealabs Comments And Suggestions

[Drareg]

Have you any interest in Tauroursodeoxycholic acid?
It's effects on DIO2 are interesting in vitro though. There are a lot of studies.
Tauroursodeoxycholic Acid - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

 

[haidut]

Have you any interest in Tauroursodeoxycholic acid?
It's effects on DIO2 are interesting in vitro though. There are a lot of studies.
Tauroursodeoxycholic Acid - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

I do have an interest but it seems poorly soluble in most carriers, so it would be hard to make into a liquid product. But it is probably also available as a sodium or potassium salt, which could make it more soluble. What do you think it has to offer beyond plain taurine?

 

[Terma]

I'd second a vote for TUDCA. The main problem is all current formulations on the market are offered by awful sports supplement companies and full of things like titanium dioxide.

Second problem is it's fairly expensive. I wouldn't expect you could do better on that front, it's just something to keep in mind.

There's a decent demand for it on both health and sports forums.

Its biggest draws are the T4->T3 effect as was posted and compared to taurine it's energizing instead of sedating, depending on the person, and then the ER stress handling and various other ideas. From personal experience it was more useful than taurine, but due to price and contamination I stopped buying it.

 

[Drareg]

I do have an interest but it seems poorly soluble in most carriers, so it would be hard to make into a liquid product. But it is probably also available as a sodium or potassium salt, which could make it more soluble. What do you think it has to offer beyond plain taurine?

It's mainly the pubmed studies seem to imply it's more coherent ,plus the anecdotes that are now popping up on this forum and others ,more to the point is the in vitro study,I'm not sure if they gave phenylbutyric acid combined wth TDUC,Peat did mention butyric acid assisting T3 into the cell before.

The chemical chaperones tauroursodeoxycholic and 4-phenylbutyric acid accelerate thyroid hormone activation and energy expenditure. - PubMed - NCBI
"Exposure of cell lines endogenously expressing the thyroid hormone activating enzyme type 2 deiodinase (D2) to the chemical chaperones tauroursodeoxycholic acid (TUDCA) or 4-phenylbutiric acid (4-PBA) increases D2 expression, activity and T3 production. In brown adipocytes, TUDCA or 4-PBA induced T3-dependent genes and oxygen consumption (∼2-fold), an effect partially lost in D2 knockout cells. In wild type, but not in D2 knockout mice, administration of TUDCA lowered the respiratory quotient, doubled brown adipose tissue D2 activity and normalized the glucose intolerance associated with high fat feeding. Thus, D2 plays a critical role in the metabolic effects of chemical chaperones".

This study pops up also,slightly off topic but interesting -
Tissue-specific inactivation of type 2 deiodinase reveals multilevel control of fatty acid oxidation by thyroid hormone in the mouse. - PubMed - NCBI
"Type 2 deiodinase (D2) converts the prohormone thyroxine (T4) to the metabolically active molecule 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine (T3), but its global inactivation unexpectedly lowers the respiratory exchange rate (respiratory quotient [RQ]) and decreases food intake. Here we used FloxD2 mice to generate systemically euthyroid fat-specific (FAT), astrocyte-specific (ASTRO), or skeletal-muscle-specific (SKM) D2 knockout (D2KO) mice that were monitored continuously. The ASTRO-D2KO mice also exhibited lower diurnal RQ and greater contribution of fatty acid oxidation to energy expenditure, but no differences in food intake were observed. In contrast, the FAT-D2KO mouse exhibited sustained (24 h) increase in RQ values, increased food intake, tolerance to glucose, and sensitivity to insulin, all supporting greater contribution of carbohydrate oxidation to energy expenditure. Furthermore, FAT-D2KO animals that were kept on a high-fat diet for 8 weeks gained more body weight and fat, indicating impaired brown adipose tissue (BAT) thermogenesis and/or inability to oxidize the fat excess. Acclimatization of FAT-D2KO mice at thermoneutrality dissipated both features of this phenotype. Muscle D2 does not seem to play a significant metabolic role given that SKM-D2KO animals exhibited no phenotype. The present findings are unique in that they were obtained in systemically euthyroid animals, revealing that brain D2 plays a dominant albeit indirect role in fatty acid oxidation via its sympathetic control of BAT activity. D2-generated T3 in BAT accelerates fatty acid oxidation and protects against diet-induced obesity".

Thyroid Hormone Signaling in Male Mouse Skeletal Muscle Is Largely Independent of D2 in Myocytes. - PubMed - NCBI
Early Developmental Disruption of Type 2 Deiodinase Pathway in Mouse Skeletal Muscle Does Not Impair Muscle Function. - PubMed - NCBI

Differences in hypothalamic type 2 deiodinase ubiquitination explain localized sensitivity to thyroxine.

"The current treatment for patients with hypothyroidism is levothyroxine (L-T4) along with normalization of serum thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH). However, normalization of serum TSH with L-T4 monotherapy results in relatively low serum 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine (T3) and high serum thyroxine/T3 (T4/T3) ratio. In the hypothalamus-pituitary dyad as well as the rest of the brain, the majority of T3 present is generated locally by T4 deiodination via the type 2 deiodinase (D2); this pathway is self-limited by ubiquitination of D2 by the ubiquitin ligase WSB-1. Here, we determined that tissue-specific differences in D2 ubiquitination account for the high T4/T3 serum ratio in adult thyroidectomized (Tx) rats chronically implanted with subcutaneous L-T4 pellets. While L-T4 administration decreased whole-body D2-dependent T4 conversion to T3, D2 activity in the hypothalamus was only minimally affected by L-T4. In vivo studies in mice harboring an astrocyte-specific Wsb1 deletion as well as in vitro analysis of D2 ubiquitination driven by different tissue extracts indicated that D2 ubiquitination in the hypothalamus is relatively less. As a result, in contrast to other D2-expressing tissues, the hypothalamus is wired to have increased sensitivity to T4. These studies reveal that tissue-specific differences in D2 ubiquitination are an inherent property of the TRH/TSH feedback mechanism and indicate that only constant delivery of L-T4 and L-T3 fully normalizes T3-dependent metabolic markers and gene expression profiles in Tx rats".

Differences in hypothalamic type 2 deiodinase ubiquitination explain localized sensitivity to thyroxine. - PubMed - NCBI

There is a lot of studies on D2 but these few seem to point toward its importance in the brain,the above mousse studies are with gene knockout,I'm never sure about those kind of studies as many genes are interacting but it does paint an interesting picture to speculate on.

 

[Wagner83]

I posted a link to Google Patents somewhere in one of these threads about DMSO and its toxicity that said most of the issues seen with DMSO are from its metabolism into MSM and urea blocks that breakdown. As far as the options - I can't keep 3-4 options of solvents to choose from. It makes the logistics for bottling and storage very difficult. If the new solvent provides the same absorption as DMSO and is virtually non-toxic then it should be the default non-tocopherol choice, unless we get a ton of reports from people saying they do not like it for some reason. I doubt they won't like it as the tests so far are overwhelmingly positive. I think 2 options for solvents is fine - one is oily (the tocopherol) and one is clear and evaporates pretty quickly, just like the DMSO. I may add the option to make a custom version with DMSO with a markup of some sort over the base price, just in case there are some die-hard DMSO fans (I am one of them) that do not want to change habits.

Ok, but what is the point of the oily solvent if you have an other one that absorbs better, has no toxicity and gives no issue with clothes? To me it sounds like dmso + the new solvent makes more sense.
Just throwing a few thoughts in the air..

 

[haidut]

Ok, but what is the point of the oily solvent if you have an other one that absorbs better, has no toxicity and gives no issue with clothes? To me it sounds like dmso + the new solvent makes more sense.
Just throwing a few thoughts in the air..

The tocopherol-based supplements seem to accumulate in lymphatic tissue unlike the ones with DMSO or this new solvent. Peat said a few times this may be preferable for steroids if one wants a longer lasting effect. Tocopherol is unique in also having the ability to dissolve much higher amounts of some chemicals than ethanol or DMSO or the new solvent. Last but not least it has cellular effects like aromatase inhibition and estrogen antagonism, and stimulation of steroidogenic enzymes, which are important when supplementing with something like DHEA or pregnenolone.
So, tocopherol is a great option but it just needs a complement like DMSO or ethanol for people who do not want the stickiness, greasiness, or exposure to vitamin E due to bleeding issues or gut irritation.

 

[Braveheart]

Like the smell of Tocovite and love the smell of Lapodin!

 

[haidut]

Like the smell of Tocovite and love the smell of Lapodin!

Thanks! The TocoVit smell seems to be a hit or miss depending on who you ask. Some people say it smells like wood pulp while others think it smells like butter and even spread it on bread.

 

[Wagner83]

When will the supplements dissolved in the new solvent be available? Any plans to release the thyroid supplements in tocopherols or mct oil soon?

 

[haidut]

When will the supplements dissolved in the new solvent be available? Any plans to release the thyroid supplements in tocopherols or mct oil soon?

Pansterone and StressNon are available in the new solvent already. Depending on feedback we get we will slowly roll out the rest of the supplements with that option. TyroMax, starting with the next batch will probably be only available as tocopherol formulation/mulsion as the reports from the fully dissolved powder are somewhat mixed.

 

[Wagner83]

Ok , so does that mean if I choose dmso/ethanol as a solvent option I'll not get dmso but the new solvent instead?

What about the other thyroid supplements like T4/tT3 and T3? If I refer to this post TyroMix & Tyronene Labs it sounds like it may not be possible to sell them in a solvent which is not dmso.

Can you dissolve K2 in the new solvent?

 

[haidut]

Ok , so does that mean if I choose dmso/ethanol as a solvent option I'll not get dmso but the new solvent instead?

What about the other thyroid supplements like T4/tT3 and T3? If I refer to this post TyroMix & Tyronene Labs it sounds like it may not be possible to sell them in a solvent which is not dmso.

Can you dissolve K2 in the new solvent?

Yes, you will get the new solvent. I will change the options on the shopping cart right now to show the new solvent and not DMSO for the products that use it already. We are doing the tests with T4/T3 right now to see if they can dissolve in the new solvent and if they are stable in it. The new solvent will simply replace DMSO, so it will still be a mixture of ethanol + new solvent and not just the new solvent by itself.

 

[encerent]

Yes, you will get the new solvent. I will change the options on the shopping cart right now to show the new solvent and not DMSO for the products that use it already. We are doing the tests with T4/T3 right now to see if they can dissolve in the new solvent and if they are stable in it. The new solvent will simply replace DMSO, so it will still be a mixture of ethanol + new solvent and not just the new solvent by itself.

So Tyromax is available in MCT oil now?

 

[haidut]

So Tyromax is available in MCT oil now?

No, not yet. Probably 1-2 weeks away.

 

[Wagner83]

Yes, you will get the new solvent. I will change the options on the shopping cart right now to show the new solvent and not DMSO for the products that use it already. We are doing the tests with T4/T3 right now to see if they can dissolve in the new solvent and if they are stable in it. The new solvent will simply replace DMSO, so it will still be a mixture of ethanol + new solvent and not just the new solvent by itself.

I guess you did not have time to update the site , in the meantime may we know what the new solvent is?

 

[haidut]

I guess you did not have time to update the site , in the meantime may we know what the new solvent is?

It is a saturated fatty acid (SFA) ester. I cannot disclose the exact chemical as there are now people openly copying/selling my supplements, down to the solvent and even doses of each ingredient :)

 

[Wagner83]

It is a saturated fatty acid (SFA) ester. I cannot disclose the exact chemical as there are now people openly copying/selling my supplements, down to the solvent and even doses of each ingredient :)

Is there no way you can forbid them to do that legally? I mean I understand how one could copy a supplement with only one ingredient, but a formula like Energin that's too much.

 

[haidut]

Is there no way you can forbid them to do that legally? I mean I understand how one could copy a supplement with only one ingredient, but a formula like Energin that's too much.

Well, if they sell it under the "Energin" label then yes, but other than that they are probably in the clear as US courts have said that even if you have a patent on the exact combination and doses of ingredients it is not enough to sue somebody since there is always error in making the supplement. So, nobody can claim exclusivity on a specific dose as it is simply not achievable in practice. You can make some claims on dose ranges, which we have in our provisional patent applications but then it is up to us to prove the infringer sold at least 6 months of a supplement infringing on our range and as a result we lost business, which gets very tricky to get evidence on. Obviously, just going to court would be quite expensive regardless of final outcome. When it comes to generic ingredients it is very hard to win a lawsuit for infringement. That is why pharma companies will do everything possible to modify a molecule before going to market since then it is easy to show somebody is infringing as if that molecule does not exist anywhere else the infringer obviously had the clear in intent to infringe as they could not have gotten that molecule by chance.
Anyways, it was bound to happen sooner or later :) What's the saying - "copying is the highest form of compliment"?

 

[lollipop]

Anyways, it was bound to happen sooner or later :) What's the saying - "copying is the highest form of compliment"?

Yes it is! You are on to something big and it shows.

 

[haidut]

Yes it is! You are on to something big and it shows.

Well, thanks Lisa! Hopefully, everybody benefits!