I think thyroid reduces immunity

Ben

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The only two times I have experimented with thyroid in the past several months, I end up catching a flu virus. I think it is well-explained by my theory.

My theory is that thyroid, although it may boost the metabolism and the activity of the immune system itself, it increases cortisol as a result of the heightened metabolism, and so, the body's "cracks" open up with this stress, allowing the intruders in. So it is probably better to leave the cracks closed and not take thyroid, and instead take serotonin, histamine, and estrogen antagonists, keep warm, etc when there is a high chance of infection.

In other words, take thyroid when there is no sick people around because it will increase your susceptibility for infection.

Serotonin, histamine, and estrogen antagonists boost thyroid too by reducing stress. But if there is a stressor like an infection, they won't or they will do it less, for very good reason. The fact that reducing these "bad guy chemicals" often increases thyroid function is the main argument against thyroid supplementation.

I know that I won't take thyroid again until my stress level is super-low. I don't want to get infected again (I got infected twice in a row this time with two different viruses). Obviously taking thyroid while one is sick is a terrible idea too. Another drawback is that the CO2 increase increases chances that the infection will spread deeper into your body.

So putting my warning here.
 

tara

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You will of course do as you see fit for your own body.
I have my doubts about whether your theory has wide applicability. Speculatively, one possibly mechanism I can imagine involves the thymus (a key organ for immunity), which is one of the first organs that is sacrificed for energy under starvation and other extreme stress conditions, possibly including low carb. If you were barely nourishing yourself adequately, then increased metabolism by supplementing thyroid, without a correponding increase in nutrition, that could possibly tip someone over into to catabolic a state, and reduce thymus mass and function. I guess for people who get particularly adrenalin sensitive when they begin supplementing thyroid, maybe that could contribute to a similar effect. I don't know enough about thyroid supplementation in general or the context and quantities you used, so I don't know if this could have anything.

I do think it is wise to be cautious about supplementing thyroid, but i don't think it is the case that everyone should wait till they and everyone around them is well before supplementing thyroid -I would expect this to depend on the individual and context.
In general, I would expect a combination of sound nourishment and improved metabolism (sometimes by use of thyroid supps) to gradually improve immunity, as it improves various other systems.
Ben said:
Another drawback is that the CO2 increase increases chances that the infection will spread deeper into your body.
I am not aware of any such mechanism - where does this idea come from? My understanding is that raising CO2 to adequate levels generally improves most functions, by several mechanisms, including improved oxygen delivery and increased body temperature.
 

jyb

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I think some things are counter-intuitive in events of infection or injury. These are cases where the problematic hormones and mechanism as supposed to be good. Nitric Oxide? For initiating recovery of injured tissue. Fever temp? For helping get rid of the infection. High serotonin? To vomit or diarrhoea to flush poison.

In all these cases, it's not clear if one should temper if the natural response. The supplements like aspirin may reduce the fever temperature to normal, but is that a good thing if the infection started and the fever temp response is started?

I would have said the best in the case of an acute infection is just keep well fed, but even then it may not even be possible. Even felt like food (all foods) is repulsive an hour before vomiting? There, the natural response is to stop eating completely.
 

miko

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Serotonin activate HPA axis, serotonin antagonist decrease HPA axis activity. SSRI drugs are poor in decreasing HPA axis activity, and and may even increase it.

"A placebo-controlled study of sertraline’s effect on cortisol response to the dexamethasone/corticotropin-releasing hormone test in healthy adults"

http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 011-2336-y

Agonism of 5-HT1a, 5-HT2a and 5-HT2c receptors cause CRH release from hypothalamus.
 
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Ben

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miko said:
Serotonin activate HPA axis, serotonin antagonist decrease HPA axis activity. SSRI drugs are poor in decreasing HPA axis activity, and and may even increase it.

"A placebo-controlled study of sertraline’s effect on cortisol response to the dexamethasone/corticotropin-releasing hormone test in healthy adults"

http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 011-2336-y

Agonism of 5-HT1a, 5-HT2a and 5-HT2c receptors cause CRH release from hypothalamus.
Correct. Like I said, it's better to keep serotonin, histamine, estrogen, etc inhibited than to keep thyroid high while one is sick. One is likely to be under a lot of stress while sick, and have enhanced cortisol and adrenalin for example. And reducing stress-involved hormones is the best way imo to prevent sickness. It may increase thyroid if one is not stressed, but in the case of an infection, the benefit is that thyroid will not increase from them, which is likely to cause stress.
 
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Ben

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tara said:
You will of course do as you see fit for your own body.
I have my doubts about whether your theory has wide applicability. Speculatively, one possibly mechanism I can imagine involves the thymus (a key organ for immunity), which is one of the first organs that is sacrificed for energy under starvation and other extreme stress conditions, possibly including low carb. If you were barely nourishing yourself adequately, then increased metabolism by supplementing thyroid, without a correponding increase in nutrition, that could possibly tip someone over into to catabolic a state, and reduce thymus mass and function. I guess for people who get particularly adrenalin sensitive when they begin supplementing thyroid, maybe that could contribute to a similar effect. I don't know enough about thyroid supplementation in general or the context and quantities you used, so I don't know if this could have anything.

I do think it is wise to be cautious about supplementing thyroid, but i don't think it is the case that everyone should wait till they and everyone around them is well before supplementing thyroid -I would expect this to depend on the individual and context.
In general, I would expect a combination of sound nourishment and improved metabolism (sometimes by use of thyroid supps) to gradually improve immunity, as it improves various other systems.
Ben said:
Another drawback is that the CO2 increase increases chances that the infection will spread deeper into your body.
I am not aware of any such mechanism - where does this idea come from? My understanding is that raising CO2 to adequate levels generally improves most functions, by several mechanisms, including improved oxygen delivery and increased body temperature.
Of course high thyroid function is good for immunity. But supplementing thyroid instead of boosting it through reducing the stress hormones, puts you at risk that if there's a stressor like an infection, your thyroid function remains high unlike if you took stress-reducing supplements which would reduce thyroid and help the body deal with the infection. In other words, thyroid would lead to stress buildup, while stress-reducing supplements or sugar, etc would do the opposite while increasing thyroid function if there is no problem.
 

tara

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Ben said:
Of course high thyroid function is good for immunity. But supplementing thyroid instead of boosting it through reducing the stress hormones, puts you at risk that if there's a stressor like an infection, your thyroid function remains high unlike if you took stress-reducing supplements which would reduce thyroid and help the body deal with the infection. In other words, thyroid would lead to stress buildup, while stress-reducing supplements or sugar, etc would do the opposite while increasing thyroid function if there is no problem.

I think you are right that thyroid supplementation sometimes leads to increases in stress levels and consequent difficulties, but I don't think it always does. In fact, I think appropriate thyroid supplementation has been shown to reduce physiological stress reactions ad stress hormones in many cases. I have not read Broda Barnes directly, but I understand that was what he found repeatedly when he prescribed thyroid supplements. Care with figuring out appropriate doses may be critical.

I don't know what you mean by stress-reducing supplements reducing thyroid function. As far as I am aware, that is not what usually happens.

How were you thinking increased CO2 could be problematic?
 
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Ben

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I read that about CO2 in a book about the Buteyko Method. It mentions the few adaptive responses of hyperventilation. For example, when a person or animal sees its own blood, it starts hyperventilating, and this contricts the blood vessels and stops bleeding. The other example was that when there's an infection, people and aninals hyperventilate to constrict the blood vessels and prevent the infection from spreading into the brain and other problem areas. I noticed that I breathe very heavily when I have an infection, but that could be adaptive.

Thyroid, in my opinion, is a metabolic enhancer that leads to higher CO2 and better health just like cool weather, exercise, and caffeine. But it is still a stressor, and existing stress should be minimal before starting it. Using a lot of sugar, salt, saturated fat, and stress-reducing supplements should be done first to correct the stress hormones, then if one desires a metabolism boost, they should supplement it.
 

tara

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jyb said:
I would have said the best in the case of an acute infection is just keep well fed, but even then it may not even be possible. Even felt like food (all foods) is repulsive an hour before vomiting? There, the natural response is to stop eating completely.
I thought Ben was talking about not supplementing when you might be exposed to infection, as opposed to when you already have an infection?
What helps when you have an infection depends what it is, and how it affects your appetite, etc.

@Ben
I would expect that if someone has already found an appropiate dosage of thyroid supplement that they have been using regularly, it would be unwise to suddenly stop when fighting infection, let alone just because it's flu season. But when you are fighting infection might not be the best time to start if you haven't been using it, or to increase the dose.

I agree that before considering starting to supplement thyroid, it is probably good see what you can do by other dietary and lifestyle measures.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary, I will stick with my impression that it the right level of thyroid supplementation supported by appropriate levels of nutrition reduces stress, while too little or too much can increase stress, as can inadequate nutrition. There is also a possible brief increase in sensitivity to adrenaline when people first start thyroid supplementation, wich which resolves as one adjusts to it. But this is based on my reading, not on experience.

I'm not sure that thyroid should be supplemented 'because you desire a metabolic boost' - my impression is that it is best used iff there is an actual deficit in thyroid function that cannot be remedied by nutritional etc measures.

I recall that hyperventilation can be protective after injuries and blows to the head. I didn't recall the bit about hyperventilation being protective during infection - I wonder if this applies to any infection, or just particular kinds? My experience is that in the last 2 years since I've learned to reduce night time hyperventilation, and hold my breath after coughing and sneezing etc, that I have recovered from colds more quickly. Of course that's not a controlled experiment, and there could have been other beneficial factors.
 

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