"I Have Liver Issues And I Am Not Making Progress"

Diokine

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@Vesi

My experience is that fasting like that is one of the quickest and surest ways to "reset" several critical circuits in the brain and autonomic nervous system, essentially normalizing serotonin transport and receptor density and subsequently circadian rhythm and secretory tone. The bulk of this is from reduced inflammation in the gut and sensitization of several key neuropeptides.
 

Regina

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I think that the point of clarification that you mentioned exists as one of the most important concepts that I've come across. Unfortunately, I've seen only a few references to this by Dr. Peat (in regard to the brain acclimating to inflammation), Broda Barnes, Recovering with T3, and a few thyroid sites here and there. I should've kept track of sources, but it's definitely something to look more into. Maybe an endocrinology text touches upon it, but I highly doubt that there's detailed (accurate) information on the subject, considering how little we know about cellular behavior and homeostasis.

Right! The "'Am I straining?'" question is often misunderstood by those who have good thyroid function. Hard activities seem hard, but doable. To someone with hypothyroidism, the energy gap demands a heroic application of will and subsequent cascade of stress hormones. Sweating, pulse increases, and anti-sociality, lazor focus, and repetitive thought patterns abound in this state. The state of relaxation (possibly due to progesterone dominance) in itself allows for rapid learning and creativity, but there's an even higher energy state: a state of androgenic potential, euphoria, and drive that only a finely tuned metabolism can produce (with the right environment.) Maybe genius lies here, or maybe the former state free from attachment!
Great insights Dave and Tarmander!
Arrggh, you described me on the aikido mat: the lazor focus. What a nut-job I must have appeared.
I'm taking this time of no training because I think this is a time of restoration. I think I got the word from the pdf Such-saturation posted written by his friend: scaffolding. I want to create better scaffolding.
 

Daniel11

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This for liver, has anyone tried? Glutathione
this one has good quality, and quinones.
Glutathione Therapy+ with PQQ and CoQ10

Hi Xisca, your so sweet i can almost hear your Spanish accent when i read your posts.

It is not good to supplement with Glutathione, it can bring some quick relief, but it will quickly throw off your cells ability to synthesize glutathione naturally.

Better to take a botanical that will increase bile flow, this will help the liver detoxify more efficiently, improve digestion and absorption of fat soluble vitamins and improve bowl function.

"Since bile increases the absorption of fats, it is an important part of the absorption of the fat-soluble substances, such as the vitamins A, D, E, and K. Besides its digestive function, bile serves also as the route of excretion for bilirubin, a byproduct of red blood cells recycled by the liver."

This is one of my favorite products for the liver, it increases bile flow and it will help the bowls move regularly and comfortably. I took it for 3 months, that was a while ago, have not needed since then, first thing i noticed was sleeping more comfortably.

Natural Liver Cleanse, Liver Aid - LivAmend
 

yerrag

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HOW DO YOU DO THIS?
And also, what is the best way to TEST all heavy metals? Some say blood, others hair test... Well, maybe just indicate me if there is another thread about this, I just react to what you said but do not want to disgress about liver in this topic.
If I remember correctly, Xisca, I had to take both blood and urine tests. And then there was a provoked test as well, where a chelate is used to draw out heavy metals from fat stores in the body. Without a provoked test, a test could easily come out as negative. I'm just not sure if the provoked test was for blood or urine, but it seemed to be from urine. I had it done with a good naturopath in Calistoga, California.
 

TubZy

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If you have problems with tolerating caffeine just start with one Red Bull a day. It is super easy plus all the cofactors are there to help prevent the stress response while the caffeine dose (80mg) is fairly low and easy to start with. Plus you got plenty of sugar in it (with taurine) and some niacin. Red Bull is also less stimulating than coffee because you are drinking it cold instead of hot too do it is the perfect way to start if you are sensitive.

You can incorporate TUDCA with it too if you want. TUDCA was the only thing that brought my liver enzymes down in a week which I confirmed with blood tests and is also peat friendly (it is like taurine on steroids)
 
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Tarmander

Tarmander

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If you have problems with tolerating caffeine just start with one Red Bull a day. It is super easy plus all the cofactors are there to help prevent the stress response while the caffeine dose (80mg) is fairly low and easy to start with. Plus you got plenty of sugar in it (with taurine) and some niacin. Red Bull is also less stimulating than coffee because you are drinking it cold instead of hot too do it is the perfect way to start if you are sensitive.

You can incorporate TUDCA with it too if you want. TUDCA was the only thing that brought my liver enzymes down in a week which I confirmed with blood tests and is also peat friendly (it is like taurine on steroids)
TUDCA is kind of interesting. Seems like taking bear bile is worth an experiment. Thanks for turning me on to it.

Why were your liver enzymes high?

I actually tolerate caffeine pretty well. I can drink 24oz of coffee in the morning and ice teas through the day without much problem.

My hypothesis is around long term liver health. I think that while you can cleanse the liver and get it in good shape for awhile, prolonged liver dysfunction is actually an effect of the kidneys and living an overstimulating life, whatever that looks like. So while I could do a green juice fast with TUDCA enemas and get my liver in tip top shape, within a period of time I will be back to where I was, but worse off now, without life changes oriented towards kidney health.

I have written some points in my OP about what good kidney health looks like, i.e. EMF, family dynamics, life purpose that orients you away from short term pleasures, etc. These are broad and may take time to change. We could also throw in working under fluorescent lights while staring at a screen.
 

Daniel11

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If you have problems with tolerating caffeine just start with one Red Bull a day. It is super easy plus all the cofactors are there to help prevent the stress response while the caffeine dose (80mg) is fairly low and easy to start with. Plus you got plenty of sugar in it (with taurine) and some niacin. Red Bull is also less stimulating than coffee because you are drinking it cold instead of hot too do it is the perfect way to start if you are sensitive.

You can incorporate TUDCA with it too if you want. TUDCA was the only thing that brought my liver enzymes down in a week which I confirmed with blood tests and is also peat friendly (it is like taurine on steroids)

Except if your sensitive and concerned about your liver you would not really want to drink a beverage made with synthetic caffeine, laboratory made vitamins, artificial colors and stored in a aluminum can.
 

TubZy

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Except if your sensitive and concerned about your liver you would not really want to drink a beverage made with synthetic caffeine, laboratory made vitamins, artificial colors and stored in a aluminum can.

"synthetic caffeine" and "laboratory made vitamins" you are not serious are you?

Many people used or have used caffeine pills to reverse liver issues including haidut and myself along with others.

Artifical colors and aluminium I can understand somewhat, but the goal isn't to use it long term anyways just until you develop a tolerance so you can handle coffee or caffeine pills. It includes everything you need to stop the stress response from caffeine.

Or you could just buy every ingredient separately that is in red bull (I.e. taurine, niacin/niacinamide) and make your own supplement yourself but according to you that is "laboratory made" too...fyi...aspirin is laboratory made, guess that is no good.
 
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TubZy

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TUDCA is kind of interesting. Seems like taking bear bile is worth an experiment. Thanks for turning me on to it.

Why were your liver enzymes high?

I actually tolerate caffeine pretty well. I can drink 24oz of coffee in the morning and ice teas through the day without much problem.

My hypothesis is around long term liver health. I think that while you can cleanse the liver and get it in good shape for awhile, prolonged liver dysfunction is actually an effect of the kidneys and living an overstimulating life, whatever that looks like. So while I could do a green juice fast with TUDCA enemas and get my liver in tip top shape, within a period of time I will be back to where I was, but worse off now, without life changes oriented towards kidney health.

I have written some points in my OP about what good kidney health looks like, i.e. EMF, family dynamics, life purpose that orients you away from short term pleasures, etc. These are broad and may take time to change. We could also throw in working under fluorescent lights while staring at a screen.

From oral steroids and PUFA/high cortisol. Also, UDCA is prescribed for liver conditions like fatty liver, but TUDCA is OTC yet works better most likely from the taurine molecule attached. It has plenty of research behind it for liver health. You can take it daily if you wanted or until you address the underlying cause that is causing liver stress (i.e. estrogen dominace, hypothyroid etc.)
TUDCA is good for the kidneys as well.
It is one of the most overlooked supplement for liver health in the BB community since they all flock to NAC and milk thistle which did nothing for me.

Protection Against Acute Kidney Injury by TUDCA
Tauroursodeoxycholic Acid Attenuates Renal Tubular Injury in a Mouse Model of Type 2 Diabetes
The nephroprotective effect of tauroursodeoxycholic acid on ischaemia/reperfusion-induced acute kidney injury by inhibiting endoplasmic reticulum s... - PubMed - NCBI
 
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Tarmander

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OK, and how is your choline intake, at least 550mg/day?
And why is it that you think you have liver problems? Have I missed that?
You should reread the thread. It's not really about liver but kidneys.
 
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Tarmander

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How is it that you know something is wrong with your kidneys, low glomular filtration rate?

Let me see if I can present the case in a clearer way for better understanding. I am trying to answer the question of how we should be oriented in this place for the best outcome. Orientation is everything.

Most people when they ask for help on this forum present liver problems, but in a superficial way. These may look like estrogen dominance or feminine issues, or masculine problems with testosterone, muscle quality, or maybe energy issues etc. Basically it's ALWAYS liver issues, and most threads identify this and encourage methods to fix the liver.

My postulate is that fixing liver issues actually does not help that much long term. Perhaps 10-15% of people's problems can be addressed in this way. The kidneys, and as some have mentioned in this thread, the intestines, are far more important for longer term health. Obviously both of these are how the liver gets rid of what it doesn't want, so their strength logically is below liver health on the pyramid. You could say they have the more root cause on dysfunction.

Sometimes attempting to fix liver issues can be worse then pointless and cause harm. If kidneys and intestine are the correct orientation, then forcing the liver to speed its detox could put stress on both those two, and set you back in your progress.

I am attempting to fix a hierarchy that leads to the best outcomes. For example, which is better, coffee every morning or avoiding gums in your food? How do you answer that? Maybe if your timeline is a month, gums aren't a big deal for a little while and you need coffee in the morning to get through your day effectively. But if your timeline is 10 years, then the gums are going to absolutely wreck your intestines while the coffee is only moderately helpful.

Somethings help everything. Thyroid for example helps the liver yes, but it also helps digestion and to take stress of the adrenals, thereby helping the kidneys which they sit on. So it isn't that orienting yourself to fix your liver is not going to help at all, it probably will, but it won't be as useful long term as orienting yourself through your kidneys and intestines.

If you can successfully identify a heirarchy of needs that leads in general to the best outcomes, then you don't need to know the science. You can share it with the masses and most people will benefit. You do not need the constant "this affects this affects this, and I have to juggle all the relationships in my head and really it's just too complex so forget it." We are the Milton and Aquinas laying the foundation to a better way of being.
 

Daniel11

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"synthetic caffeine" and "laboratory made vitamins" you are not serious are you?

Many people used or have used caffeine pills to reverse liver issues including haidut and myself along with others.

Artifical colors and aluminium I can understand somewhat, but the goal isn't to use it long term anyways just until you develop a tolerance so you can handle coffee or caffeine pills. It includes everything you need to stop the stress response from caffeine.

Or you could just buy every ingredient separately that is in red bull (I.e. taurine, niacin/niacinamide) and make your own supplement yourself but according to you that is "laboratory made" too...fyi...aspirin is laboratory made, guess that is no good.

Im not against all lab made chemicals, they save peoples lives every day in the emergency room, our cars and computers are made form them, but i do not think they are good to put inside your body everyday unless you have no other option to heal or survive.

One of the main reason many of us have so many health issues is because of the toxins in our environment, if something is working for you then you should do it, but the years will go by, we have too think about the long term accumulation of chemicals in our bodies.

I know caffeine even synthetic has helped people but for others that are very sensitive to life it could really hurt them, caffeine is very stressful to the kidneys and adrenals especially if your already not feeling well.

Everyone is different, my approach is for those very sensitive people having some of the more difficult human experiences.

For example schizophrenia is most often caused by hypothyroidism, intestinal dysbiosis and an extreme toxic overload in the body, it is not a personality disorder, it effects the the mind, but it is not caused by the mind, adding chemicals just masks symptoms eventually making things worse and never getting to the root causes.

The label and word schizophrenia is very misleading and confused by most people, many people want the term changed. Probably a better more descriptive term would be; endocrine, intestinal and sensory processing imbalance.

They also lump people under schizophrenia that have had extreme shock and exhibit these symptoms, that should be a completely different term.

For very sensitive people, being under overly blue spectrum and florescent lights can exasperate symptoms, so can many lab made chemicals and numerous environmental toxins.

Some chemicals can help short term, interestingly aspirin and methylene blue were two of the very first drugs ever invented. Thyroid whether natural or synthetic has and does help many people, for me i much prefer how i feel after i used the red light therapy to get off NDT and regain normal healthy thyroid and endocrine functioning.

There really is no such thing as “schizophrenia” it is just a poorly invented name for a bunch of extreme symptoms that many people with health issues have on different levels. The problem is the body not the mind and the key is not adding unnecessary chemicals but helping improve metabolism, intestinal health and detoxification pathways.

I apologize if i got to far off the main conversation here, most of you probably already know all this stuff.
 

Jack Roe

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Let me see if I can present the case in a clearer way for better understanding. I am trying to answer the question of how we should be oriented in this place for the best outcome. Orientation is everything.

Most people when they ask for help on this forum present liver problems, but in a superficial way. These may look like estrogen dominance or feminine issues, or masculine problems with testosterone, muscle quality, or maybe energy issues etc. Basically it's ALWAYS liver issues, and most threads identify this and encourage methods to fix the liver.

My postulate is that fixing liver issues actually does not help that much long term. Perhaps 10-15% of people's problems can be addressed in this way. The kidneys, and as some have mentioned in this thread, the intestines, are far more important for longer term health. Obviously both of these are how the liver gets rid of what it doesn't want, so their strength logically is below liver health on the pyramid. You could say they have the more root cause on dysfunction.

Sometimes attempting to fix liver issues can be worse then pointless and cause harm. If kidneys and intestine are the correct orientation, then forcing the liver to speed its detox could put stress on both those two, and set you back in your progress.

I am attempting to fix a hierarchy that leads to the best outcomes. For example, which is better, coffee every morning or avoiding gums in your food? How do you answer that? Maybe if your timeline is a month, gums aren't a big deal for a little while and you need coffee in the morning to get through your day effectively. But if your timeline is 10 years, then the gums are going to absolutely wreck your intestines while the coffee is only moderately helpful.

Somethings help everything. Thyroid for example helps the liver yes, but it also helps digestion and to take stress of the adrenals, thereby helping the kidneys which they sit on. So it isn't that orienting yourself to fix your liver is not going to help at all, it probably will, but it won't be as useful long term as orienting yourself through your kidneys and intestines.

If you can successfully identify a heirarchy of needs that leads in general to the best outcomes, then you don't need to know the science. You can share it with the masses and most people will benefit. You do not need the constant "this affects this affects this, and I have to juggle all the relationships in my head and really it's just too complex so forget it." We are the Milton and Aquinas laying the foundation to a better way of being.

None of that is clearer, the question is why you think someone (yourself?) with normal liver labs/GFR has "liver" or "kidney" problems.

If you are correct about organ dysfunction, then there are two possible causes: environmental and genetic.

If it is environmental, it is either too far-gone to fix or it can be fixed by changing the environment, e.g. nutrition

It is is genetic, same deal: either there is no fix, or the fix is to change environment. I guess in future maybe there will be advanced gene therapies.

So what is to be done about environment? The first step would seem to be to accept that the Institute of Medicine guidelines, with perhaps the exception of their EFA requirements, are a decent starting point; so, does someone get 100-150% of every vitamin/mineral listed there? If you lack sufficient mineral nutrition, all the gelatin in the world isn't going to help. And, as I say, I know _plenty of people_ who don't worry about what they eat, don't eat particularly healthy, and are just fine. Most of the people I know who have problems have had some period of "food neurosis" or "dieting." Now, whether this is the cause or effect, who knows.

Nutrition is more or less a solved problem---this is why they have lab chow for primates and dog food for dogs. The issue is that humans eating "whatever they come across" do not necessarily get enough nutrition. A small problem is that some of the IOM requirements are too small, like for copper, there is a bunch of evidence suggesting that 2-5mg a day is more realistic than 900ug a day, for males. People eating a varied diet will likely hit at least 2mg some days, people drinking 2L of milk and 1L of orange juice and tablespoons of gelatin and liver "once in a while" probably won't. Genetically, there are probably differences in mineral absorption, retention. And it is a complex system, the reason that human nutrition has improved is because there are lots of smart people working on it.

And take choline---without eating lots of eggs or meat or liver, getting the 550mg/day AI is very difficult. As an aside, when I meet people who smoke and want to quit, I recommend that they "eat five eggs a day." Most of them cannot do this and top out at 2-3 eggs a day, but, still, of the dozen or so people I have told this to, anecdotally, more than 50% have quit tobacco. Choline, after all, is a precursor to acetylcholine, and nicotine is an acetylcholine receptor agonist.

Someone convinced that "it's muh liver/kidneys" absent any labwork that suggests liver or kidney dysfunction focused on "detoxing" these organs, well, if an organ is "toxified," we can say that this means not only that it has "toxins" in it, these toxins have impacted its regenerative capability---so the cells are not being replaced with healthy cells, or the cells are somehow deficient. So to correct that, there is going to be a need for adequate nutrition.

It seems to me far more likely that people have mineral/vitamin deficiency and not thyroid/hormone deficiency, especially if for some of their lives they have produced sufficient hormones to feel acceptable. And no mineral in the body is responsible for just one thing, so taking hormones is not going to correct the underlying problems
 
J

James IV

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I think one of the main reasons the liver gets sluggish and fatty is that it is rarely cycled with many modern foods and eating patterns.
Constantly keeping insulin elevated via frequent feedings, especially carbohydrate feeding, will never allow glucagon to signal the liver to release glycogen, and then FFA as glycogen depletes. It can take up to 5 hours or more for primary and secondary insulin signals to fall after a mixed meal. If you eat constantly, keeping insulin elevated, you never let these levels fall low enough for glucagon to rise, and you cannot burn stored fat in the liver or otherwise.
This creates an environment where liver glycogen is always full, never releases into the blood, and is almost constantly converting glycogen into fat, since glycogen capacity is always exceeded.

For liver issues I would focus on allowing no less than 5 hours between meals, and keeping a high protein to carbohydrate ratio. Caffeine (and sufficient vit/min, particularly B vits) can help as will since they will accelerate the use of blood energy allowing post prandial insulin to lower faster and allow glucagon signaling sooner.
Once the fat is cleared, and glycogen stores somewhat depleted, you can increase carbohydrate to protein ratio since there will be room for the carbohydrate to be stored without keeping blood glucose and subsequently insulin constantly elevated. However, if you resume chronically overeating, particularly carbohydrate, beyond glycogen storage capacity, you will again begin to accumulate fat in the liver and otherwise.

All of this signaling, of course, is mainly dependent on total energy status, and strict calorie control can probably somewhat bypass the need for limiting carbohydrate. But in practice this seems to be much more difficult for people because of hunger and energy fluctuations.
 
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Tarmander

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None of that is clearer, the question is why you think someone (yourself?) with normal liver labs/GFR has "liver" or "kidney" problems.

If you are correct about organ dysfunction, then there are two possible causes: environmental and genetic.

If it is environmental, it is either too far-gone to fix or it can be fixed by changing the environment, e.g. nutrition

It is is genetic, same deal: either there is no fix, or the fix is to change environment. I guess in future maybe there will be advanced gene therapies.

So what is to be done about environment? The first step would seem to be to accept that the Institute of Medicine guidelines, with perhaps the exception of their EFA requirements, are a decent starting point; so, does someone get 100-150% of every vitamin/mineral listed there? If you lack sufficient mineral nutrition, all the gelatin in the world isn't going to help. And, as I say, I know _plenty of people_ who don't worry about what they eat, don't eat particularly healthy, and are just fine. Most of the people I know who have problems have had some period of "food neurosis" or "dieting." Now, whether this is the cause or effect, who knows.

Nutrition is more or less a solved problem---this is why they have lab chow for primates and dog food for dogs. The issue is that humans eating "whatever they come across" do not necessarily get enough nutrition. A small problem is that some of the IOM requirements are too small, like for copper, there is a bunch of evidence suggesting that 2-5mg a day is more realistic than 900ug a day, for males. People eating a varied diet will likely hit at least 2mg some days, people drinking 2L of milk and 1L of orange juice and tablespoons of gelatin and liver "once in a while" probably won't. Genetically, there are probably differences in mineral absorption, retention. And it is a complex system, the reason that human nutrition has improved is because there are lots of smart people working on it.

And take choline---without eating lots of eggs or meat or liver, getting the 550mg/day AI is very difficult. As an aside, when I meet people who smoke and want to quit, I recommend that they "eat five eggs a day." Most of them cannot do this and top out at 2-3 eggs a day, but, still, of the dozen or so people I have told this to, anecdotally, more than 50% have quit tobacco. Choline, after all, is a precursor to acetylcholine, and nicotine is an acetylcholine receptor agonist.

Someone convinced that "it's muh liver/kidneys" absent any labwork that suggests liver or kidney dysfunction focused on "detoxing" these organs, well, if an organ is "toxified," we can say that this means not only that it has "toxins" in it, these toxins have impacted its regenerative capability---so the cells are not being replaced with healthy cells, or the cells are somehow deficient. So to correct that, there is going to be a need for adequate nutrition.

It seems to me far more likely that people have mineral/vitamin deficiency and not thyroid/hormone deficiency, especially if for some of their lives they have produced sufficient hormones to feel acceptable. And no mineral in the body is responsible for just one thing, so taking hormones is not going to correct the underlying problems

I'm not sure how to explain what I am trying to get across any better. To be honest once you mention the institute of medicine, genetics, and trusting your blood tests as long as they are in range, I kind of lost interest in your side of things. You should read more Peat.

By all means though you should make a new thread about all your super healthy friends who eat junk. Maybe you could also include how to use cocaine for decades as long as you have the right attitude. While your at it maybe stop by youreatopia and let those ladies know they are actually super skinny and food is good for them. You should be able to solve most of the nets problems in >50 posts.
 

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