"I Have Liver Issues And I Am Not Making Progress"

[theLaw]

How do you determine your liver is not working well?

Haidut has posted that caffeine tolerance is actually used in some countries to gauge liver health, so it's probably the easiest way to test.

Also, I would assume that if someone hasn't either been very strict with a Peat-ish diet,or used something like high-dose caffeine to clean the liver, it's probably still compromised.

Protein is another option:

High Protein Diet Prevents & Reverses Fatty Liver Disease (steatosis)

 

[GAF]

The carahealth article is very helpful. Of particular note to me is the reference to glutathione and riboflavin.

"Glutathione-S-transferase

Glutathione-S-transferase is the most powerful internal antioxidant and liver protector. It can be depleted by large amounts of toxins and/or drugs passing through the liver, as well as starvation or fasting. Phase II reactions may follow Phase I for some molecules or act directly on the toxin or metabolite."

My current B2 experience and readings about riboflavin lead me to think that B2 is very important in glutathione production.

Brave experimenters out there who believe their liver is a problem might want to supply your body with some extra B2.

I am one week into 250 mg B2 in the morning and the impacts have been astounding so far.

I am a 61 yr old male.

 

[yerrag]

Haidut has posted that caffeine tolerance is actually used in some countries to gauge liver health, so it's probably the easiest way to test.

Also, I would assume that if someone hasn't either been very strict with a Peat-ish diet,or used something like high-dose caffeine to clean the liver, it's probably still compromised.

Protein is another option:

High Protein Diet Prevents & Reverses Fatty Liver Disease (steatosis)

Thank you very much theLaw! I'll have to look up how to test for caffeine tolerance. I suppose the high protein diet should have plenty of gelatin as well, or else it would normally default to being high in tryptophan, cysteine, and methionine. The odd thing here is that high protein diets are usually associated with being bad for the liver, and once again that idea is proven to be anything but bad. But I'll have to dive in to the thread and see how to make the HP protocol work.

 

[Pointless]

@Pointless Thank you for writing this. You are exactly the kind of person I was thinking about when I wrote this post. You are taking large amounts of supplements, if I may be so bold as to posit. How long have you been doing this regimen? Do you find that everyday you are dealing better and better with sugar, that you are hungrier? What is your lifestyle like? Chaotic? Peaceful? High elevation? I would be curious if you would like to share more about what surrounds this protocol and if you think it's working for you. I have done something similar to what you have there, and while it worked for awhile, I crashed into exhaustion eventually and slowly had to roll back many of those supplements.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I do roll back supplements occasionally, but I find that the ones I'm taking help greatly and improve my daily functioning. I have Crohns disease and am well-treated with Cyproheptadine. The others I find essential for certain health conditions but hope to decrease or eliminate them in the long-term. It is a long-term goal.

I have an active job with some stresses and trials there. I am also a composer and spend some time working on my art. I have an active and meaningful life where I work towards specific goals slowly. I live near the beach in a subtropical climate.

I hope to replace the large amounts of niacinamide and theanine with meldonium and maybe phase out the steroids. This will put me at a spot where I'll be comfortable for at least another year in terms of number of supplements. Fat solubles will also be on the chopping block maybe half a year to a year down the road which will reduce it to quite a manageable level.

At the risk of being in denial, most of these are stacks that synergize. A single tailor-made supplement from the health food store might contain 100 supplements in a single capsule. No one bats an eye at this, but Peatarians supplement specific substances in specific doses and ratios, which multiplies the number of capsules and bottles. I take caffeine, fatty acid inhibitors, fat solubles, liver (a food that is much more convenient to take this way), 1 drug (essential for me), and some steroids (questionable usefulness). To me, this is manageable, but I do try to keep the number and dosage to a minimum effective dose.

As for progress, I have about 30 health conditions, running from very serious (inflammatory bowel disease) to minor (wrinkles). I have resolved or greatly improved almost all of them over 2-3 years of slow improvement.

Do you not get the desire to eat more balanced food, more interesting food, and more proper meals? That liquid-heavy, boring, monotonous diet would mess me up.

I have no problem with it, though many people find my monk-like eating habits strange. My whole life, not just since peating. If I don't eat enough fat, I get ravenous, but eating junk food makes me feel sluggish and a bit nauseous. A little more fat in my diet keeps that off. Before peating, I would get intense cravings that couldn't be satisfied, and now my sensation of hunger is different. It is directed towards specific foods and is satiable

 

[GAF]

The Liver & Detoxification (Part 2)

This is a link to where the carahealth article came from. The above link is much more detailed. There appears to be a Part 1 and 3, but I haven't found them yet.

 

[Daniel11]

My view is that its not about detoxifying the liver, its about enhancing liver functioning so it detoxifies you.

If our bowls are not moving well daily then our liver will be greatly stressed. If your not digesting your meals well and comfortably then you have intestinal dysbiosis and your liver will be more stressed, reestablishing microbial balance is pivotal, its all connected of course.

When we do not digest our meals properly then we are not getting the nutrients we need from our food, this leads to a state of malnutrition no matter what or how much we eat, this cascades into numerous health issues.

If we are constipated then we are always reabsorbing toxins back into our blood stream, backing up digestion and putting a much greater load on the liver and other organs.

Vitamins and amino acids can be helpful for short runs if your levels are truly low and your not sensitive to the ingredients, but i never found vitamins improved my digestion or helped alleviate constipation. We really should not have to take vitamins to be healthy.

Improving our digestion and absorption of the nutrients we need naturally from the food we eat instead of always looking to lab made vitamins for support is important to truly maintain physiological homeostasis. Focusing on relieving constipation will greatly enhance liver, kidney and every bodily function.

For me i found certain botanicals helpful for liver and constipation and quality cultured foods very helpful to reestablish microbial balance and to greatly improve my digestion. I was bloated, constipated and had numerous food and chemical sensitivities for many years, now i feel wonderful and eat a variety of delicious foods.

I did light therapy to optimize thyroid and endocrine functioning.

Its funny i was just listening to a series of lectures on prehistory and they were talking about how humans at times would go tens of thousands of years with very few advancements and now it only takes seconds. The theory is that the reason we are still here is our unique ability to adapt to changes in our environment.

 

[Xisca]

The Liver & Detoxification (Part 2)

This is a link to where the carahealth article came from. The above link is much more detailed. There appears to be a Part 1 and 3, but I haven't found them yet.

The Liver & Detoxification (Part 1)
No part 3 found...

 

[Tarmander]

@DaveFoster I do take thyroid. Started a few months ago, it has been amazing, I wish I had started it sooner. I get the hunch that overtime it will make a large difference for me. I did not know about the CNS needing to get used to lower inflammation. Can you point me in the direction to something on that? Despite the two years of Peat before thyroid...lowering stress, getting to a better place, etc... my cholesterol continued to rise along with insulin resistance and a base level of stimulation. So I am very thankful for thyroid.

Also, feeling tired IS a good thing, assuming you are on thyroid. I will make that assertion. I lowered stress and lowered stress and felt more and more tired, but when I was up I was up up up. You have to feel tired from thyroid function. Since taking thyroid, I would say my tired level has changed. It is kind of like I am always a little tired now. I could nap whenever. There is a feeling that you have to figure out. I think its best described as "Am I straining?" Something like that.

@yerrag I Think the biggest one for me was not being able to go for longer periods of time without food. I was functional as long as I was eating at a good clip, and since taking thyroid that has actually elongated quite a bit. I do not have to constantly have juice with me or anything like that. Also I think tummy fat is a good sign of poor liver.

@Xisca @Daniel11 I believe Peat said it once, and I have heard others I respect say it, but the quality of your small intestine is the quality of your life. Good food quality is at the bottom of the pyramid.

@Pointless You know you are right about the supplements. It seems like a lot but people take blends all the time and that is basically what we are doing here, just tailor made. I have seen people just pick up 3 different supplements at the store and they probably easily get to 50+ ingredients. Thanks for describing your life somewhat. Living in the tropics must give you some nice access to fresh fruit. Is the low CO2 a concern?

@Jack Roe I will look into your cocaine theory and see if a 40 year habit with an abusive family can improve my situation.

 

[DaveFoster]

@DaveFoster I do take thyroid. Started a few months ago, it has been amazing, I wish I had started it sooner. I get the hunch that overtime it will make a large difference for me. I did not know about the CNS needing to get used to lower inflammation. Can you point me in the direction to something on that? Despite the two years of Peat before thyroid...lowering stress, getting to a better place, etc... my cholesterol continued to rise along with insulin resistance and a base level of stimulation. So I am very thankful for thyroid.

Also, feeling tired IS a good thing, assuming you are on thyroid. I will make that assertion. I lowered stress and lowered stress and felt more and more tired, but when I was up I was up up up. You have to feel tired from thyroid function. Since taking thyroid, I would say my tired level has changed. It is kind of like I am always a little tired now. I could nap whenever. There is a feeling that you have to figure out. I think its best described as "Am I straining?" Something like that.

I think that the point of clarification that you mentioned exists as one of the most important concepts that I've come across. Unfortunately, I've seen only a few references to this by Dr. Peat (in regard to the brain acclimating to inflammation), Broda Barnes, Recovering with T3, and a few thyroid sites here and there. I should've kept track of sources, but it's definitely something to look more into. Maybe an endocrinology text touches upon it, but I highly doubt that there's detailed (accurate) information on the subject, considering how little we know about cellular behavior and homeostasis.

Right! The "'Am I straining?'" question is often misunderstood by those who have good thyroid function. Hard activities seem hard, but doable. To someone with hypothyroidism, the energy gap demands a heroic application of will and subsequent cascade of stress hormones. Sweating, pulse increases, and anti-sociality, lazor focus, and repetitive thought patterns abound in this state. The state of relaxation (possibly due to progesterone dominance) in itself allows for rapid learning and creativity, but there's an even higher energy state: a state of androgenic potential, euphoria, and drive that only a finely tuned metabolism can produce (with the right environment.) Maybe genius lies here, or maybe the former state free from attachment!

 

[yerrag]

The Liver & Detoxification (Part 1)
No part 3 found...

Thanks Xisca. Another good read.

But I'm taking note of paragraph on bile, which says:

Bile Excretion
The liver's second detoxification process involves the synthesis and secretion of bile. Each day the liver manufactures approximately 2 liters of bile, which serves as a carrier in which many toxic substances are dumped into the intestines. In the intestines, the bile and its toxic load are absorbed by fiber (if there is any in the diet) and then excreted. However, a diet low in fiber results in inadequate binding and reabsorption of the toxins back from the intestines into the liver. This low fiber diet (especially soluble fiber like oats and flax seed lignans) is a major cause of gall stones. This problem is magnified when bacteria in the intestine modify these toxins to more damaging forms.

Is a diet low in fiber a major cause of gall stones?

Is a diet low in fiber going to result in adequate binding and reabsorption of the toxins back from the intestines into the liver?

 

[Dobbler]

@DaveFoster Good posts bro. Your ideas about stress hormones makes perfect sense. Especially repetitive thought patterns thing, it drives me crazy. Its defenitely skyhigh serotonin and cortisol thats causing it but very hard to stop without supplements...

 

[yerrag]

Haidut has posted that caffeine tolerance is actually used in some countries to gauge liver health, so it's probably the easiest way to test.

@theLaw, I'm having difficulty getting a good hit on the search on haidut's post on caffeine tolerance as gauge for liver health. Do you have a link? Thanks.

 

[theLaw]

@theLaw, I'm having difficulty getting a good hit on the search on haidut's post on caffeine tolerance as gauge for liver health. Do you have a link? Thanks.

I know that he mentioned it on one of Danny's podcasts, but I'm not sure where he posted about it here. Never seen any specific numbers from him on this, but I think that he was referring to taking enough carbs with each dose for a valid test (without carbs everyone would naturally get a stress response). Also, his reference to caffeine tolerance as a liver test was probably from countries where blood tests would be price-prohibitive or unavailable (Georgi is from Bulgaria).

Danny Roddy

 

[yerrag]

I Think the biggest one for me was not being able to go for longer periods of time without food. I was functional as long as I was eating at a good clip, and since taking thyroid that has actually elongated quite a bit. I do not have to constantly have juice with me or anything like that. Also I think tummy fat is a good sign of poor liver.

That certainly was the case for me as well. I don't know which did the trick, but I did different things. One was I had mercury detox. Another was to get a chiropractor to adjust my spine for subluxation, which might have corrected some pinched nerves that impeded the signaling between the brain and organs. One day I got busy on a project and skipped a meal and when I realized that I wasn't feeling hungry or sleepy or sick, I realized I had moved closer to the goal line. But I was still eating brown rice, without which I would get quickly hungry. When I stopped taking fish oil and cooked everything using coconut oil, and forgotten about this change, it was till lately, about 4 years later, that I decided to try eating white rice instead of brown. I found that my body had been able to take glucose from starch well without an insulin reaction, meaning my glucose sensitivity had increased, and that I was able to skip a meal without my blood sugar going down. That meant I have enough glycogen stores already. With a stable blood sugar, I was getting less sick as well. And less sensitive to allergies. I no longer yawn much these days, and I wasn't sneezing a lot. I didn't connect all this improvement to the liver, but now I realize I wouldn't have achieved these without a good healthy liver.

Still, I'm not sure if there's anything else about my liver I don't know about. Perhaps it would wait for my kidney to get better, as you had said about kidney having an effect on the liver's health. I have a stage 1 chronic kidney disease, based on urine tests which showed I'm losing some protein (albumin). It's coming from lead toxicity, in which some lead still remains in my kidney. It causes my blood pressure to go up, which I believe keeps my uric acid levels up to protect my kidney as an antioxidant. I have to continue with the detox, as I'm halfway through it. My blood pressure has already gone down a bit, and my uric acid levels as well.

But other than the high blood pressure, I seem to be doing well, immunity-wise as well as in other areas. Seeing that I've improved from a similar situation, I hope you can also see the light at the end of the tunnel, and move closer and closer to the end. It's a great feeling to see all the effort and the patience pay off!

 

[yerrag]

I know that he mentioned it on one of Danny's podcasts, but I'm not sure where he posted about it here. Never seen any specific numbers from him on this, but I think that he was referring to taking enough carbs with each dose for a valid test (without carbs everyone would naturally get a stress response). Also, his reference to caffeine tolerance as a liver test was probably from countries where blood tests would be price-prohibitive or unavailable (Georgi is from Bulgaria).

Danny Roddy

There are about 31 podcasts so far, it's good I've just barely begun on them. I'll be on the lookout for this. Sometimes, the topics go over my head though. Thanks again!

 

[Xisca]

Is a diet low in fiber going to result in adequate binding and reabsorption of the toxins back from the intestines into the liver?

I think yes for soluble fibers, but you need a good intestine... Pear JUICE has a good content of fibre, to let you know that is is not fibrous! Fruits are superior to sugar maybe also for this reason... Fruits were for sure, at 99% , the first sugar humans ate, so what is in it must be what we need! I would tell this before oat and linen!
Pectine is also good for this I read, it is a soluble fiber, but cooked pectine for the ones who cannot stand it raw. Apple sauce or compota...

caffeine tolerance as gauge for liver health.

(without carbs everyone would naturally get a stress response)

I do not think it is about a stress response about about detoxicating the substance in itself! Same with aspirin, we need the capacity to detox salilates....
I know about some tests I did that I am not very good at detoxing caffein, but still I go on with some, I do not count but take what I feel ok with for waking up.
I think caffein is detoxicated in the 1st phase. So they use the test to know which pathway is inpaired I think!

One was I had mercury detox.

HOW DO YOU DO THIS?
And also, what is the best way to TEST all heavy metals? Some say blood, others hair test... Well, maybe just indicate me if there is another thread about this, I just react to what you said but do not want to disgress about liver in this topic.
Edit: some topics are running on now...

Especially repetitive thought patterns thing, it drives me crazy. Its defenitely skyhigh serotonin and cortisol thats causing it but very hard to stop without supplements...

I do not know what can be done alone, but good friends can help too... By being there for a presence and friendship support when regulating these sorts of unconfortable feelings. Look for the emotion that goes with the thought pattern, find where it is in the body, and as it is usually concentrated in one place, like chest, try to take a wider contact with the feeling, by expanding in all the body. Let's say that the spoonful of salt you cannot eat will taste super fine in a soup! We usually put a hand where we feel unconfortable, and this helps for sure, and also if you stretch the feeling to make it dilute in other parts of the body. It will make it more bearable.
To not be off topic, I believe that when we get calmer, our organs can work better!

 

[Vesi]

Three months ago i decided to start water fasting to lose some extra weight (after reading books by Jason Fung, and listening interviews by Valter Longo and others). Prior to this i couldn't drink coffee without stress reaction and sleeplessness. I have read texts by Peat starting from 2011, and this forum from 2013, so i knew that drinking coffee should fix liver problems, but losing sleep was too much for me - i couldn't do it long enough.

Anyway, for the first two months i did 36-96 hour water fasts with huge re-feedings in between; i stuffed myself with food. Maybe 40 days of fasting out of 60. For the past month i have done 16/8 intermittent fasting about 5 days a week. Depends on mood, some days it feels best to eat, and on some days i fast 36 hours.

For the past three weeks i have drank five 2,2 dl cups of strong black coffee per day without any problems, most days to empty stomach. I sleep perfectly, actually better than before. So far no stress reactions from coffee. To be precise, starting from my first cup few weeks ago i have had no problems with it, or sleep, and it almost felt like i had always drank coffee.

I don't have adequate explanation on why this happened, but i suspect that fasting fixed something in my liver and/or my ability to mobilize fat for energy. What else. No idea how long i am going to continue fasting, at least i still have lots of fat to lose - and i know of possible side effects of fasting, discussed earlier on this forum, so i have been somewhat careful in my approach.

Any opinions on this?

 

[Tarmander]

@DaveFoster Great post man. I am suspect that the andro state you describe can be entered into willfully.

@yerrag Yeah it is kind of funny how progress kind of happens unconsciously. You just do what feels right and realize it is a step above what used to feel right.

 

[Xisca]

This for liver, has anyone tried? Glutathione
this one has good quality, and quinones.
https://theportlandnutritionco.com/products/glutathione

 

[theLaw]

Three months ago i decided to start water fasting to lose some extra weight (after reading books by Jason Fung, and listening interviews by Valter Longo and others). Prior to this i couldn't drink coffee without stress reaction and sleeplessness. I have read texts by Peat starting from 2011, and this forum from 2013, so i knew that drinking coffee should fix liver problems, but losing sleep was too much for me - i couldn't do it long enough.

Anyway, for the first two months i did 36-96 hour water fasts with huge re-feedings in between; i stuffed myself with food. Maybe 40 days of fasting out of 60. For the past month i have done 16/8 intermittent fasting about 5 days a week. Depends on mood, some days it feels best to eat, and on some days i fast 36 hours.

For the past three weeks i have drank five 2,2 dl cups of strong black coffee per day without any problems, most days to empty stomach. I sleep perfectly, actually better than before. So far no stress reactions from coffee. To be precise, starting from my first cup few weeks ago i have had no problems with it, or sleep, and it almost felt like i had always drank coffee.

I don't have adequate explanation on why this happened, but i suspect that fasting fixed something in my liver and/or my ability to mobilize fat for energy. What else. No idea how long i am going to continue fasting, at least i still have lots of fat to lose - and i know of possible side effects of fasting, discussed earlier on this forum, so i have been somewhat careful in my approach.

Any opinions on this?

I would guess Adrenalin. Temperature + pulse is probably a good metric, but a capnometer would measure your CO2 levels giving you a more accurate picture.

I used to drink several coffees for breakfast with no food, and felt incredible for several hours. It was only years later that I started to feel the negative effects of this, and resolving them has not been easy.