"I Have Liver Issues And I Am Not Making Progress"

[theLaw]

That VoS thread was one of the first things I read on this forum, got me super pumped. But I have found that those dosages of the supplements are too high for me, and actually most people from what I have read.

Here is the thing, are you going to take aspirin at 1g a day for the rest of your life? Let's say just 10 years? 18 cups of coffee? 1g+ of niacinamide? 5g of calcium and 2g of Magnesium? I have actually tried these amounts, and they are great for awhile but they seriously imbalance you overtime. My time-frame is years, and while you may take those amounts for awhile, your body will just not let you take those high dosages for years. Besides, if you can slam those amounts of supplements above and not become super unstable, your health is probably not as bad as you think.

This is a tough question, because Ray uses high-dose caffeine daily, but only a small amount of aspirin.

I think these numbers are designed as a way to fast-track getting rid of pufa, which would be unnecessary after someone is pufa-free(ish). Haidut has cut-out/down most of these in his current diet, which he claims is related to getting rid of stored pufa.

Also, Haidut has posted studies about longevity with some of these substances that are worth consideration:

Aspirin extends lifespan in animal model

Caffeine extends lifespan in animal model by 52%

I agree about taking to many sups without balance. Slow and steady wins the race.

Cheers!

 

[Peater Piper]

For what it's worth, I've found high amounts of sugar (specifically fructose) to be counterproductive to my liver health. Starch on the other hand treats me just fine. It's not uncommon here to find people putting on quite a bit of weight, especially around the waist, and when a large amount of calories are coming from sugar, I don't know how you could not expect NAFLD, which will sabotage any treatment you attempt. I can't help but notice that the majority of high fructose consumers either rely on substantial amounts of exercise (many fruitarians) or coffee/caffeine (Peaters). Now, say what you want about exercise, but there's a lot of studies showing that it decreases NAFLD unless you're going overboard, and it will also clear out liver glycogen which will allow more storage of fructose. Caffeine burns off liver fat through hepatic autophagy. If your liver is already fatty, and you're consuming copious amounts of caffeine to lean it out, then it seems counterproductive to consume large amounts of a substance that is known to get stored as hepatic fat if everything isn't functioning optimally.

Obviously experiences will differ. Some people tolerate fructose wonderfully and feel awful with starch. Fair enough, but I don't think fructose should be forced because it's perceived as healthy even when there's clear signs that the body isn't processing it appropriately. When I gave up trying to make a ton of fruit and fruit juice work, added back in some starch, drank coffee to taste (2-3 cups per day), walked for 20 - 25 minutes in the morning, and started lifting weights a couple of times a week, my energy, digestion, and blood glucose all improved.

 

[Pointless]

I have liver problems, evidenced by pale stools, extreme sensitivity to hormones like DHEA.

This is my current "protocol":

Morning: Caffeine 400 mg, Niacinamide 1 g, Theanine 400 mg (similar to Haidut's recommendations in thyroid surrogate thread), Mitolipin (8 topically)
2x/day: Dried liver capsules 1500 mg I think, Cyproheptadine 1 mg
Evening: vit. A 30kIU, vit. D 25kIU (experimental), vit. K2 5 mg sublingual
2x/wk: Preg 100 mg, Titan DHT 2 drops

Diet:
fruit, fruit juice, milk 1-2% or ice cream, gelatin, salt

Other:
CO2 directly breathing 5 min./day
RLM red-infrared device torso/face area 15 min./day
Tai chi reduced breathing and stretching
2x/wk: high-intensity body weight exercises outside: balance, strength, quickness

IME, the only thing that stops the stress response of caffeine is SATURATED FAT. This has dramatically improved my energy levels (objectively measured at the park working out outdoors). It has reduced mood problems.

Gelatin is the only thing that has improved my pale stools and low stomach acid. I cook it in juice with 1/8 tsp salt and drink it. It doesn't set because I use Great Lake Hydrolyzed Collagen (will probably change).

I have some meldonium in the mail, and I'm considering replacing the niacinamide and theanine with that, if it works.

 

[Lucenzo01]

Fat-solubles and niacin megadoses, taurine, glycine, lysine, a big amount of coffee and two red bulls a day cleared my liver pretty fast. Before this protocol I could eat the cleanest diet and felt like ***t. Right now I can eat whatever I want and feel just fine, sometimes great. Tobacco was a great help too.

 

[James IV]

For what it's worth, I've found high amounts of sugar (specifically fructose) to be counterproductive to my liver health. Starch on the other hand treats me just fine. It's not uncommon here to find people putting on quite a bit of weight, especially around the waist, and when a large amount of calories are coming from sugar, I don't know how you could not expect NAFLD, which will sabotage any treatment you attempt. I can't help but notice that the majority of high fructose consumers either rely on substantial amounts of exercise (many fruitarians) or coffee/caffeine (Peaters). Now, say what you want about exercise, but there's a lot of studies showing that it decreases NAFLD unless you're going overboard, and it will also clear out liver glycogen which will allow more storage of fructose. Caffeine burns off liver fat through hepatic autophagy. If your liver is already fatty, and you're consuming copious amounts of caffeine to lean it out, then it seems counterproductive to consume large amounts of a substance that is known to get stored as hepatic fat if everything isn't functioning optimally.

Obviously experiences will differ. Some people tolerate fructose wonderfully and feel awful with starch. Fair enough, but I don't think fructose should be forced because it's perceived as healthy even when there's clear signs that the body isn't processing it appropriately. When I gave up trying to make a ton of fruit and fruit juice work, added back in some starch, drank coffee to taste (2-3 cups per day), walked for 20 - 25 minutes in the morning, and started lifting weights a couple of times a week, my energy, digestion, and blood glucose all improved.

Balanced, sound advice.

The liver appears to accumulate the most fat when you are consuming excess energy that must be converted to fat for storage by the liver, as opposed to excess energy from foods that can be stored directly in adipose tissue.

"Leaning" out of any fat accumulation requires periods of energy deficit. However, I believe if the liver is fatty, it will be more difficult to efficiently process fat from other adipose tissue, so I would address leaning out the liver first. To do this I would suggest alternating periods of energy deficit, and energy balance, with fairly even distribution of macronutrients, and minimal fructose, artificial foods, and alchohol.

 

[GAF]

What is it about the liver that makes it accumulate fat?

Do bits of fat get stuck there on their way out?

Or, is the liver full of small human fat cells just waiting to get fatter?

 

[Tarmander]

@A.R Well that is kind of what I am trying to feel out. How do we address this? I want to avoid the trap where you cleanse your liver, weaken your kidneys, then take a break, then cleanse your liver, then weaken your kidneys, then take a break...ad naseaum until you are exhausted and depleted and still have liver problems. There are obviously people who take some type of liver clearing agents and then are good to go. Why? I think its because they have an unexciting lifestyle that supports their kidneys...or maybe they are just young. So the solution would be something like lowering excitement in your life. I wrote a couple points above that I think are relevant in the OP, but let's see where this goes.

@Dante Check out http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(08)01696-X/abstract on Iron and this guy's page Garrett Smith: Iron Overload, Calcium Going Awry, And Mineral Balancing which has some stuff about calcium and iron issues. Apparently Vitamin A is critical.

@oneZero I don't think I have that bad of liver issues. I have some visceral fat that is concerning, and some insulin resistance compared to my younger years. However I think my current liver health depends largely on an unstimulating lifestyle and the points I wrote above. I want to work on the visceral fat and insulin resistance but constantly run into the excitement wall where stimulating liver cleansing results in depletion and all the accompanying consequences.

@ivy I actually do not like Chinese herbs. Their quality control is abysmal and heavy metals are an issue. If you have been doing Peat for a few months I think that's great, but I think there is a likelihood that if you continue, and check back in 2 years from now, you may have some of those same issues if you do not address the Kidney, excitement aspect. I want to address that in a way where in 2 years your liver is working like a 15 year old.

@theLaw Yeah Caffeine seems to be one of those things that you can get away with at higher doses for long periods of time. Peat seems to be into some supplements strongly, and very anti supplements in other ways. Coffee seems to be a way to deliver caffeine in a balanced way. Haidut is a great example of someone who cleaned the liver with high doses of things, and came out the other end healthier.

@Peater Piper Yeah I do way better with fruit then starch...however if the starch has just been cooked and is pretty hot, I do alright with it. Thanks for your write up! I think you nailed the NAFLD part where if you are putting on liver fat, treatments are not really going to work. However from a very depleted state, like anorexics, it seems impossible not to put on liver fat.

@Pointless Thank you for writing this. You are exactly the kind of person I was thinking about when I wrote this post. You are taking large amounts of supplements, if I may be so bold as to posit. How long have you been doing this regimen? Do you find that everyday you are dealing better and better with sugar, that you are hungrier? What is your lifestyle like? Chaotic? Peaceful? High elevation? I would be curious if you would like to share more about what surrounds this protocol and if you think it's working for you. I have done something similar to what you have there, and while it worked for awhile, I crashed into exhaustion eventually and slowly had to roll back many of those supplements.

 

[aquaman]

Diet:
fruit, fruit juice, milk 1-2% or ice cream, gelatin, salt

Do you not get the desire to eat more balanced food, more interesting food, and more proper meals? That liquid-heavy, boring, monotonous diet would mess me up.

 

[James IV]

What is it about the liver that makes it accumulate fat?

Do bits of fat get stuck there on their way out?

Or, is the liver full of small human fat cells just waiting to get fatter?

The liver converts excess carbohydrate into fat for storage. It also breaks down fat from other storage areas into usable energy. So basically the majority of fat in your body interacts with the liver at some point. Anything that overburdens or inhibits the liver can cause this fat to accumulate.
Whether this accumulation is always harmful, is debatable.

I do believe going too low in fat (and high in carbohydrate) can create the potential for fatty liver, more than a simple energy excess alone, since it will upregulate de novo lipogenisis.

 

[Daniel11]

What is it about the liver that makes it accumulate fat?

Do bits of fat get stuck there on their way out?

Or, is the liver full of small human fat cells just waiting to get fatter?

This is some good clear info on how the liver functions.

http://www.carahealth.com/health-co...-1-and-2-liver-detoxification-pathways60.html

 

[Broken man]

Did you use vit K2 orally or topically? If orally, did you use 27 + g of saturated fat with it? If not, vit K2 is going out of body through fecal matter. Look on biotin, its promoting glycogen synthesis, Haidut wrote thread about it, I think he wrote that it could be used for fat loss. Androsterone has trophic effect on kidneys.

 

[DaveFoster]

@Tarmander Are you taking thyroid at present? Low thyroid inflames the liver. I deal with identical issues as yourself.

Something that I've discovered: feeling tired is a good thing.

I suppose one could outline the cessation of stress hormones as better than their continued secretion. An anti-serotonin drug or thyroid may make you feel tired and lethargic, but I take this as a good sign. I've been having this reaction to very small amounts of thyroid (0.01 mcg T3 and T4 approx.), and I'm tapering up.

Thyroid takes time to improve the efficiency (and count) of cellular mitochondria, and it takes many months for the CNS to adjust to a lowered level of inflammation. I think chasing after things with aspirin and caffeine misses the point. They have their point, but for severe issues anti-serotonin drugs in the short-term (and theoretically, thyroid in the long-term) should be used (along with pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA of course). Even large amounts of pregnenolone with progesterone can provide relief in the short-term, and if you need particularly large amounts of pregnenolone/progesterone to cease anhedonia or depression, then thyroid may be used to incrementally decrease the use of these hormones.

I don't recall Dr. Peat ever recommending large doses of niacinamide or caffeine, but he does recommend small amounts of cyproheptadine along with larger amounts of aspirin, pregnenolone, and sometimes progesterone with thyroid as an ongoing "project" for the individual. Getting the TSH measurement below 0.1 can be necessary for some people.

I've found large doses of pregnenolone to be very helpful to counter depression and low energy levels. I don't feel anything until I get above 400 mg, and I need about 800 mg - 1.2 grams to feel "okay."

Using mirtazapine (30 mg), I'm now able to tolerate thyroid, where before I never could (even tiny doses would elevate my pulse and cause anxiety). I'm now able to tolerate very small amounts of thyroid, and hopefully I will reach the destination of my journey by optimizing thyroid. Life's rough, but maybe our answers lie here.

 

[Dante]

Did you use vit K2 orally or topically? If orally, did you use 27 + g of saturated fat with it? If not, vit K2 is going out of body through fecal matter.

27+ g of saturated fat for how much mcg/mg of k2? Any reference for that ? In my personal experience, I doubt that much of saturated fats is needed. I have used k2 put in very small amount of milk and I can assure you it was getting absorbed. Low glycated haemoglobin, low serum calcium and at >1 mg dose, finger pain.

 

[Jack Roe]

I want to narrow the gap between results and theory from Peat.
•Growing up with a single mother for boys seems to basically turn on the adrenals from a young age and until this history is dealt with, they will remain on. I think the low testosterone and wimpy boys phenomenon is basically too much st.

I will comment on that. Not to be a downer, but as the child of a single mother, the experiment in easy divorce that favors women has been, basically, an experiment conducted in the west over the last few generations, and none of the outcomes are very good. If you're the child of a single mother and not in prison and you graduated highschool, that's pretty good. You've read some of my mother posts, so I won't repeat them here, but what I will say is that it is possible that any sort of bad early childhood environment creates genetic changes---the idea that genetic state is fixed at birth (or conception) is probably not entirely true. Not that I have looked into it extensively, but one of my friends is an old University professor who is always reading research on something, and I get it filtered down. Anyway, recently he has mentioned that there is some evidence that early childhood treatment alters genetic expression and that later in life, it is not necessarily possible to undo.

A human being is not like an automobile where, if a part is malfunctioning, you can just change it out; you can't, if your fuel is the wrong sort, simply drain the engine, clean it and start over. One of the facets of "modern life" in the west is that large numbers of people are going to have to get used to diminished outcomes via diminished expectations. Where people 60+ expected to be reasonably healthy, to have a decent job, to buy a house and have kids, people in their 20-30s now cannot really expect any of those things in the same way. This isn't to say that for the baby boomers everyone succeeded and everything came free and easy; but there were far fewer single parents, there was far less childhood diabetes, obesity, etc.

And I do think most of it is cultural---I grew up in a fairly multicultural city in Canada, and most of the immigrants are pretty healthy. Sure, as they age they develop a lot of the health problems that the "natives" and "white people" (it's odd how the lower-class whites and native americans suffer in similar fashion, albeit the native americans moreso), but you just don't see as many fat, unhealthy asian kids as white kids. And I think part of that has to do with retaining traditional ways of eating, as well as a more traditional larger family structure; you don't tend to have one insane person whittling the whole family down to him/her and the kids. Bringing over Grandma/Grandpa is a big deal, and they tend to live with the family. I think this provides some much needed perspective.

In all of this, the question has to be what are your goals. "Being healthy" isn't a goal; being able to squat 300 lbs or climb a mountain, that is a goal. Even the focus on pulse, temperature that I see here, those things aren't goals, really, tho they might be good evidence of what is inhibiting achievement of a goal. So what is your "liver issue"? Do you mean that a doc has done tests, and you have come back with bad liver function? Is your liver in pain? Or is this some sort of idea you've thought up because you have read a lot of this "health" stuff on the internet?

The healthy people I know tend to fall into two categories:

(1) They are weightlifting/fitness types who "eat clean" and know they are "eating clean" because they can bench/squat large amounts of weight, or they run trails, or whatever.
(2) They are easy-going types who just sort of eat whatever comes along, and don't think about their diet too much, and by luck or good genetics or good early childhood or whatever, they are healthy and have lives that they enjoy.

But in both cases, "health" is measured by their ability to achieve, either great feats of physical fitness or gainful employment, relationships, etc.

"Not having a purpose in Life, not believing in something meaningful...nihilism, hopelessness. This turns people towards hedonism which is basically the art of stimulating yourself."

I dunno if stimulation is the negative you're thinking it is. I know someone who falls into category (2) I outlined, and his major occupation for the last 40 years has been doing cocaine---binging from once to several times a month. He's now in his 70s, and compared to many 70 year olds I know, he is comparatively healthy: he takes 1 medication, a water pill for mild hypertension. He has _never in his life_ thought about what he eats. He also had a fairly stressful childhood: abusive adoptive father, no father at all for the first 12 years of his life (tho maybe that was low stress, who knows), left home at 17 because to continue on in school he had to leave the rural area he lived in (tho, again, maybe living with a family that took care of him was good for him). 40 years of what the medical profession would call "cocaine addiction/abuse," and he is healthier than plenty of people I know who opted for "safe" things like exercise! One of his favorite stories is Jim Fixx, the fitness/running guru who dropped dead of a heart attack. If only he'd stuck to coke

 

[Broken man]

he fat soluble vitamins are a great tool to help metabolism and improve overall health. However their oral usage is sometimes hindered by their requirements for ingestion of fat. In the case of vitamin K2 (MK-4) the fat requirement can be large (35g+) and thus inconvenient to implement while on the go or when restricting fat intake for various purposes.
This study claims that taurine improves the oral bioavailability of all fat-soluble vitamins and especially vitamins A and K.

@Dante

 

[yerrag]

I am working on the theory that to have a clean effective liver, the basis for health, y good kidneys and adrenals. To have good kidneys and adrenals, you need a non-exciting life. Very low amounts of stimulation. I believe that the people who liver cleansing is not working for have some type of stimulation that needs to be addressed before they can make progress.

How do you determine your liver is not working well? This has always been a question for me since I went to a naturopath years back and they had me tested in what's called a bioterrain analysis, where blood, urine, and saliva samples are taken and from these the pH of these liquids were determined. My pH were not in line and from there it was determined that my liver and kidney needed some fixing. And then I was given an age that says my body is older my 10+ years.

But I was peeved because I couldn't get myself out of that pH hole after taking many pills. I've not taken these tests since, as I was getting discouraged seeing the same thing. During all this time, my blood pressure had been high, and staying that way. I feel I've improved but withe more to go since I realized I have a high level lead toxicity. Blood tests confirm my lead toxic condition.

Still, I'm not pleased that we're not able to determine the state of our liver from blood tests alone. AST and ALT could be used, but only when the liver in a rather advanced state of dysfunction already. It seemed to me the best way would be to us to observe ourselves for signs of liver dysfunction. What are signs to look for, anyone?

I could rattle off some:

-low glycogen stores, as manifested by perhaps, the inability to have normal blood levels if put to a fast for 8 hours
-high cholesterol, although this could be a function of being hypothyroid, but then liver also makes plnety of thyroid (am I mistaken to say liver accounts for 80% of thyroid produced)
-high estrogen, indicating the liver cannot convert estrogen to become water-soluble and be excreted, but would taking a fair amount of progesterone be able to test for high estrogen levels, because progesterone would cause cells to release estrogen in the tissues to the blood, and at this point blood estrogen can be measured in a blood test?
-skin yellowing, due the liver not being able to convert beta-carotene to vitamin A, although this has as much to do with a lack of a certain vitamin or substance (is it vitamin B12? Ray has mentioned this)
-inability to digest oils well, due to problems with producing bile acid

There should be more and the list I made could be wrong so I welcome change to this list, and for more to be added.

Really would be nice to have a good list, and for a way to verify if indeed it is indeed the liver having an issue, or whether it is the liver not being able to do its work because there is another substance lacking or another condition present that is affecting the liver's ability to do its job.

 

[Xisca]

About what was ais about liver and kidneys, I would add intestine, for this if detox being efficient and stuff not being re-obsorbed in the intestine way out!
So what do you think about Dr Clark protocoles, that says intestine and parasites 1st, they kidneys clean, and only 3rd should you detox liver.
Please do not tell me about Clark herself, as there is some controversy I do not bother about, but just about the order and ways of cleaning!

It goes well with saying that you need clean bile and that your liver has to make new one instead of getting back the dirty one...

 

[Xisca]

This is some good clear info on how the liver functions.

Phase 1 And 2 Liver Detoxification Pathways

Which means that coffee will NOT be good if you phase II is not good?

 

[yerrag]

This is some good clear info on how the liver functions.

Phase 1 And 2 Liver Detoxification Pathways

That's a nice link. However, the author considers caffeine and saturated fats toxic. Still, I hope the rest of it is still useful as I'm still reading it.

(I'm just having to disagree with a TCM doctor who says sugar and caffeine is bad, and a friend is consulting with him. And then there's an orthomolecular medicine practitioner who likes megadosing, yet prescribes PUFAs and I hope he doesn't megadose this one. Both of these friends of mine are cancer victims. Touche.)

 

[yerrag]

That's a nice link. However, the author considers caffeine and saturated fats toxic. Still, I hope the rest of it is still useful as I'm still reading it.

(I'm just having to disagree with a TCM doctor who says sugar and caffeine is bad, and a friend is consulting with him. And then there's an orthomolecular medicine practitioner who likes megadosing, yet prescribes PUFAs and I hope he doesn't megadose this one. Both of these friends of mine are cancer victims. Touche.)

I caught another one: "Eight ounces of grapefruit juice contains enough of the flavonoid naringenin to decrease cytochrome P450 activity by a remarkable 30%."

Saying naringenin decreases cytochrome P450 activity in the context of cytochrome P450 being needed for liver detox. Just not sure why author would classify naringenin this way.

Still, a good article overall. It touches for example, on glycine being needed for detox. Makes me appreciate all the more increasing gelatin intake, which I've been doing lately.