Hypothyroidism (Cortisol, Prolactin And Adrenal Hyperactivity) Causes Balding

[blob69]

Same thing is true about the "DHT is the cause of baldness", period.

I totally agree here and wasn't trying to counter your argument on this.

 

[blob69]

Don't get me wrong, I'm trying to raise metabolism myself and feel that I'm better off for it. It's just that I'm majorly confused on this topic, it's THE one thing that bothers me about Peat's work (which normally makes a lot of sense). Like why do women live longer, why do they have faster heart rates, why do they not go bald as often as men IF they are 5-10 times more hypothyroid than men and have more estrogen-related diseases? I feel that this has not been adequately explained around these circles.

Perhaps it's the iron that interacts so dangerously with a low metabolism/PUFAs (women have less of it due to menstruating)? Perhaps a lower metabolism is protective in the face of a nutritionally inadequate diet?

 

[Manoko]

Where did you see anybody saying men and women in their 20s have the same rate of balding?? I said "older" in all of my posts, didn't I? Also, the so-called MPB in women does not look like the males' - unlike the male' MPB the females' is diffuse and non-localized. That does not prevent the studies still calling it MPB because it hormone driven and likely the of the same etiology as males'.

But you imply men's and women's balding has the same cause though, and this cause being hypothyroidism.
Women are more affected by hypothyroidism by men, and earlier in life.

The logical conclusion from this would be that more women would be losing hair than men, and earlier in life.

Am I missing something here ? Seems like a huge piece of the puzzle is missing, yet the title of this thread is "Hypothyroidism [...] causes balding."

Looks to me like women baldness after menopause is unrelated, or not strongly related at least, to "MPB".
You say it yourself, it's not the same hairloss (diffuse and non localized for women).

To me, this baldness after menopause is most likely strongly related to hypothyroidism indeed, as hypothyroid men experience the same baldness pattern (diffuse).

But saying hypothyroidism causes balding, as in every type of baldness, just seem like over-simplification.

 

[Manoko]

So you propose the additional factor I mentioned in my post above is progesterone - and this has also been proposed as a reason for why women live longer than men. But if women have higher levels of unopposed estrogen (and autoimmune diseases etc. that are said to be caused by it) than men, then this also doesn't make any sense to me. Unless it's the absolute amounts that are important as well, but Peat never talks about that, at least as far as I know.

I honestly am just guessing.
It definitely seems MPB is vastly different from diffuse thinning/hairloss, as I've honestly never heard of anyone regrowing a full head of hair after years of regular MPB, I mean, even on this forum where people are doing everything they can to improve metabolism/thyroid health.

If it did, you'd probably see a lot of men here either completely stopping their hairloss or experiencing regrowth. If there are and I missed their threads, my bad.

I would love to be proven wrong on this, as I do suffer from MPB.

 

[blob69]

I honestly am just guessing.
It definitely seems MPB is vastly different from diffuse thinning/hairloss, as I've honestly never heard of anyone regrowing a full head of hair after years of regular MPB.

I agree, it would seem like that. And if MPB was metabolism related, I'd hope to see some amazing before/after pics in a place like a RP forum, but there's a lack of them even here...

 

[blob69]

I honestly am just guessing.
It definitely seems MPB is vastly different from diffuse thinning/hairloss, as I've honestly never heard of anyone regrowing a full head of hair after years of regular MPB, I mean, even on this forum where people are doing everything they can to improve metabolism/thyroid health.

If it did, you'd probably see a lot of men here either completely stopping their hairloss or experiencing regrowth. If there are and I missed their threads, my bad.

I would love to be proven wrong on this, as I do suffer from MPB.

Ah, I just saw your addition to this comment - we're thinking alike :)

 

[haidut]

Don't get me wrong, I'm trying to raise metabolism myself and feel that I'm better off for it. It's just that I'm majorly confused on this topic, it's THE one thing that bothers me about Peat's work (which normally makes a lot of sense). Like why do women live longer, why do they have faster heart rates, why do they not go bald as often as men IF they are 5-10 times more hypothyroid than men and have more estrogen-related diseases? I feel that this has not been adequately explained around these circles.

Perhaps it's the iron that interacts so dangerously with a low metabolism/PUFAs (women have less of it due to menstruating)? Perhaps a lower metabolism is protective in the face of a nutritionally inadequate diet?

Oh, absolutely, I agree that there are many things that need explaining and I wish Peat had simply said "I don't know" rather than leaving it as silence-filled gap. Maybe hypothyroidism affects men and women differently, maybe there are steroids we don't even know about yet that play a role in balding. I know the latter part is at least partly true. Recent studies with a lot more powerful analytical techniques found that giving people DHEA resulted in over 40 different steroid metabolites that were not classified anywhere and nobody knew even existed or what pathways they go derived from.
Anyways, hopefully with so many men getting MPB and the number increasing somebody somewhere will figure it out. Btw, caffeine shows comparable effects to finasteride when used topically. So, maybe that's a good starting point to start delving into and produce a more potent drug based on caffeine and without the anti-androgenic damage done by finasteride.

 

[haidut]

But you imply men's and women's balding has the same cause though, and this cause being hypothyroidism.
Women are more affected by hypothyroidism by men, and earlier in life.

The logical conclusion from this would be that more women would be losing hair than men, and earlier in life.

Am I missing something here ? Seems like a huge piece of the puzzle is missing, yet the title of this thread is "Hypothyroidism [...] causes balding."

Looks to me like women baldness after menopause is unrelated, or not strongly related at least, to "MPB".
You say it yourself, it's not the same hairloss (diffuse and non localized for women).

To me, this baldness after menopause is most likely strongly related to hypothyroidism indeed, as hypothyroid men experience the same baldness pattern (diffuse).

But saying hypothyroidism causes balding, as in every type of baldness, just seem like over-simplification.

That's what the study said - MPB exists in women with a lifetime incidence of 50%+, and that hypothyroidism was found in a large percentage of those women. If you don't agree with the conclusions of the study then that's fine, but those are not really my words. And hypothyrodism does cause balding, it's just not clear if it's the same as the MPB. Sorry to quote WebMD, but I am only doing it to show that the hypothyrodism and hair loss connection is officially acknowledged.
Slideshow: Thyroid Symptoms and Solutions
It's the triumvirate of fatigue, weight gain and hair loss that defines most cases of subclinical hypothyroidism according to mainstream medicine.

 

[Agent207]

haidut I think you're still misleading serum DHT with tissue specific activity -which highly depends on local 5α-R2 density-, and still relying on that relationship, to continue supporting the idea that DHT has nothing to do with MPB (MPB =/ general hairloss).

DHT is not a bad guy at all, but its a key actor on genetically predisposed individuals for MPB; again --> scalp 5α-R2 density. This is FACT and deniyng it is blindness. I think this is part of the binary mindset around here... DHT is good for all and cures everything, estrogen bad and cause of all maladies.. and so on. Ok, im exagerating but you got the idea.

Regional scalp differences of the androgenic metabolic pattern in subjects affected by male pattern baldness. - PubMed - NCBI

Regional differences in the androgen metabolism were established in alopecic and non alopecic areas of patients affected by male pattern baldness (MPB). 5-alpha-reductase (5-alpha-R) activity was measured by the formation of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), using 3H-testosterone as substrate: this activity was higher in the alopecic areas (3.4 pmol/g tissue/h) than in the non alopecic skin (1.5 pmol/g tissue/h). 3-alpha,beta-hydroxysteroid oxoreductase (3-alpha, beta-HO) was studied using 3H-DHT as precursor and measuring the corresponding formed 3-alpha- and 3-beta-androstanediols (alpha DIOL and beta DIOL). The beta DIOL was the predominant metabolite and total 3-alpha, beta-HO activity was higher in alopecic skin (12.4 pmol/g tissue/h) than in non alopecic areas (8.4 pmol/g tissue/h). Also 17, beta-hydroxysteroid oxoreductase was measured using either testosterone or DHT as substrates: androstenedione formed from testosterone was higher in hairy skin (12 pmol/g tissue/h) than in alopecic areas (6 pmol/g tissue/h); androstanedione formed from DHT was also higher in non alopecic areas (8.1 pmol/g tissue/h) than in alopecic skin (2.8 pmol/g tissue/h). The greater formation of beta DIOL in the sebaceous glands-enriched alopecic skin supports the hypothesis for a specific role of this metabolite in the control of the sebaceous activity.


Please stop arguing that DHT has no significance in MPB becouse serum levels don't correlate. Thats a blatant falacy, obvious it doesnt correlate becouse serum DHT levels have little to do with MPB. Autocrine formation from local tissue enzyme DOES. Im not saying hypothyroidism does anything of help with it, but it has more to do with GENERAL hair-loss, which is not the same as MPB.


If you understand that a male can develope gynecomastia having completly normal serum e2/prl/prog. levels then you can understand this. Or would you say... oh no, the gyne has NOTHING to do with estrogen becouse his blood levels are OK.

 

[haidut]

haidut I think you're still misleading serum DHT with tissue specific activity -which highly depends on local 5α-R2 density-, and still relying on that relationship, to continue supporting the idea that DHT has nothing to do with MPB (MPB =/ general hairloss).

DHT is not a bad guy at all, but its a key actor on genetically predisposed individuals for MPB; again --> scalp 5α-R2 density. This is FACT and deniyng it is blindness. I think this is part of the binary mindset around here... DHT is good for all and cures everything, estrogen bad and cause of all maladies.. and so on. Ok, im exagerating but you got the idea.

Regional scalp differences of the androgenic metabolic pattern in subjects affected by male pattern baldness. - PubMed - NCBI

Regional differences in the androgen metabolism were established in alopecic and non alopecic areas of patients affected by male pattern baldness (MPB). 5-alpha-reductase (5-alpha-R) activity was measured by the formation of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), using 3H-testosterone as substrate: this activity was higher in the alopecic areas (3.4 pmol/g tissue/h) than in the non alopecic skin (1.5 pmol/g tissue/h). 3-alpha,beta-hydroxysteroid oxoreductase (3-alpha, beta-HO) was studied using 3H-DHT as precursor and measuring the corresponding formed 3-alpha- and 3-beta-androstanediols (alpha DIOL and beta DIOL). The beta DIOL was the predominant metabolite and total 3-alpha, beta-HO activity was higher in alopecic skin (12.4 pmol/g tissue/h) than in non alopecic areas (8.4 pmol/g tissue/h). Also 17, beta-hydroxysteroid oxoreductase was measured using either testosterone or DHT as substrates: androstenedione formed from testosterone was higher in hairy skin (12 pmol/g tissue/h) than in alopecic areas (6 pmol/g tissue/h); androstanedione formed from DHT was also higher in non alopecic areas (8.1 pmol/g tissue/h) than in alopecic skin (2.8 pmol/g tissue/h). The greater formation of beta DIOL in the sebaceous glands-enriched alopecic skin supports the hypothesis for a specific role of this metabolite in the control of the sebaceous activity.


Please stop arguing that DHT has no significance in MPB becouse serum levels don't correlate. Thats a blatant falacy, obvious it doesnt correlate becouse serum DHT levels have little to do with MPB. Autocrine formation from local tissue enzyme DOES. Im not saying hypothyroidism does anything of help with it, but it has more to do with GENERAL hair-loss, which is not the same as MPB.


If you understand that a male can develope gynecomastia having completly normal serum e2/prl/prog. levels then you can understand this. Or would you say... oh no, the gyne has NOTHING to do with estrogen becouse his blood levels are OK.

I am not denying that DHT may be ONE of the factors in MPB. I am denying that it is THE factor in MPB as the official story goes. As you can see in this thread I do say that DHT may be one of the factors involved.
Inflammation-Induced TLR4 Expression And Reactive Oxygen Species Are Attenuated By Dihydrotestostero

The same story was sold for prostate cancer for decades and now apparently even Wikipedia says the role of DHT in prostate cancer has been "disproven". Note the use of "disproven" and not "disputed".
Inflammation-Induced TLR4 Expression And Reactive Oxygen Species Are Attenuated By Dihydrotestostero
Dihydrotestosterone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"...DHT created locally at the site of hair follicles by 5α-reductase, and not systemic levels of DHT, is the primary causal factor in male pattern baldness that results from hair follicle miniaturisation, although the pathology regarding this phenomenon is poorly understood.[15][16] However, female hair loss is more complex, and DHT is only one of several possible causes.[17] Women with increased levels of DHT may develop certainandrogynous male secondary sex characteristics, including a deepened voice and facial hair. It was once believed that DHT played a role in the development and exacerbation of benign prostatic hyperplasia, as well asprostate cancer, but this has largely been disproven.[18] Prostate growth and differentiation are highly dependent on sex steroid hormones, particularly DHT.[19]"

Finally, the local tissue increase of DHT is also suspect as a cause of baldness. Like I said in my earlier posts in this thread, if this were true the androgen "receptor" antagonists like flutamide would be effective since they would stop DHT from doing its local "damage". Please find me one study, human or animal, that showed flutamide helped MPB in males in any ways.

Again, saying DHT is the THE cause of MPB is just as simplistic as saying DHT is a cure-all (and I am not saying the latter). What I am saying is that DHT is primarily a beneficial hormone and if it does contribute to hair loss it could be through one of its metabolites, which we are just beginning to discover. Recent studies with DHEA and DHT showed that they metabolites into tens of downstream hormones that are completely unknown and even the enzymes that synthesize them are unknown. And since we are on the topic of DHT - another study found that it was estrogenic metabolites of DHT like 3-alpha and 3-beta androstenediol that cause follicle death in vitro but not DHT itself. So, the picture is probably a lot more complex. The current evidence does point to increase local tissue synthesis of DHT in hair loss but ALSO increased local DHT (and DHEA) degradation into estrogenic metabolites and other metabolites we know nothing about yet. DHT (and DHEA) is probably there just like cholesterol in CVD - as a bystander and trying to repair the damage. But in an organism with lost coherence due to hypothyroidism or disease DHT (and DHEA) ends up getting broken down into bad metabolites that may accelerate hair loss.

 

[lvysaur]

Ronaldo, 39, stopped playing soccer from being too hypothyroid. Still has a "perfect hairline".

He has an estrogenic look in his face though. What I've noticed about a lot of men who keep their hair in old age, is that they develop this estrogenic puffy look.

There was an account of two twins, only one of whom took finasteride. This one kept his hair. However, you can also see in this picture that the finasteride twin has more facial puffiness/softness (the pictures on their site are more evident of this, but it requires disabling ad-block), while the non-finasteride twin has a more bony and lean look to his face, evident in the jaw bones and the bone around the mouth area. The control twin also has a more bulbous nose, which is consistent with what I experienced when I was losing hair.

This set of twins shows a similar pattern, with the finasteride twin having a larger gonial angle and overall more developed jaw. Control twin has an elongated and obtuse gonial angle. No apparent puffiness in the former twin, but he could just be not so susceptible to estrogen.

So because in old age, some women have their hormones turn havoc, suddenly male balding isn't male at all ? Even these women retain a large area of hair follicles even if dense, millions of men completely lose their follicles and at a much younger age yet it hits them harder than the worst worldwide cases of bald women.

This is a good point. While many women experience MPB, almost zero women experience MPB to completion.

 

[Peater Piper]

So if hypothyroidism is supposedly always a factor in MPB, then what's the explanation in my case? Like I said, my TSH has tested below 1 since my teens, and I'm in the upper quartile for T3 and T4. Admittedly I've had some problems over the last five years which makes me question the labs a bit, I'm frequently chilled now even though my oral temperature is in the 98's, and armpit temperature is usually between 97.8 and 98. However, in my late teens when my hair loss started, I weighed 120 lbs. soaking wet at 5'10", I'd sleep with my window open in the dead of winter, and play in the snow in shorts and a t-shirt. If I stayed in an enclosed room for a little while, people would comment how much warmer I made the room. It's hard to believe I was hypothyroid back then when my body was like a furnace. I definitely think something is amiss with my hormones, but I'm not sure hypothyroidism is part of it.

 

[haidut]

So if hypothyroidism is supposedly always a factor in MPB, then what's the explanation in my case? Like I said, my TSH has tested below 1 since my teens, and I'm in the upper quartile for T3 and T4. Admittedly I've had some problems over the last five years which makes me question the labs a bit, I'm frequently chilled now even though my oral temperature is in the 98's, and armpit temperature is usually between 97.8 and 98. However, in my late teens when my hair loss started, I weighed 120 lbs. soaking wet at 5'10", I'd sleep with my window open in the dead of winter, and play in the snow in shorts and a t-shirt. If I stayed in an enclosed room for a little while, people would comment how much warmer I made the room. It's hard to believe I was hypothyroid back then when my body was like a furnace. I definitely think something is amiss with my hormones, but I'm not sure hypothyroidism is part of it.

Sweating profusely like that is a sign of very high adrenaline. How were your extremities (hands, feet) in terms of temps?

 

[Peater Piper]

Sweating profusely like that is a sign of very high adrenaline. How were your extremities (hands, feet) in terms of temps?

Always warm back then, and my resting heart rate was in the 70's.

Edit: I should add that I'm getting some unfortunate adrenaline rushes these days, and they feel nothing like how I felt back then, so I doubt it was adrenaline. High cortisol may have been possible back then, I guess, but I don't know how to diagnose that from symptoms.

 

[Ras]

DHT (and DHEA) is probably there just like cholesterol in CVD - as a bystander and trying to repair the damage.

I have begun to think along these lines. Many have a simplified, reductionist view of the factors associated with the MPB-prone areas, thinking that because more DHT is found there, it is guilty by association.

 

[mayweatherking]

i'm losing my hair and it sucks. it's really confusing. there is a root cause though without a shadow of a doubt, as i have seen changes in "the itch" in my own scalp based on different diet experiments. although peat never really talks about masturbation or orgasms, i know it plays a part. i will notice an increase in "the itch" post orgasm, and it will slowly start to fade after maybe 4 or 5 days with no orgasm. how is that explained? that has to be showing something. it is either, 1) a rise in prolactin, 2) a rise in adrenaline, 3) a rise in cortisol, 4) causing some trigger points in the muscle to spasm, 5) something else ?

i can tell you when you supplement thyroid, "the itch" will disappear, but it doesn't mean your shedding will stop.

the hard part is really finding what the root cause is. i've had my vitamin D levels up and prolactin down and still experiencing issues. i've not eaten and felt no "itch" and then eat and feel it. sometimes when i drink milk i will feel the itch, other times not.

i think you might need thyroid and perfect lab work to really stop it, but making this happen is much harder than you'd think.

things like constipation or endotoxin in the gut will lead to problems for me. if i empty my bowel completely, i will notice the itch will go away. is it a bacteria issue then? this is for sure happening. empty gut = no "itch".

these are all things i can tell you are accurate with my case. i know there is a root cause, however, i'm not sure although thyroid works, it is the root cause because it doesn't work unless you are doing other things right.

my co worker, she is like 50 something, her hands feel ice cold, she has amazing head of hair. the thyroid theory just doesnt add up. maybe it does, maybe it needs to be hypothyroid for a certain amount of time. maybe its a lack of zinc. i dont know.

"the itch" is a rise in histamine. why? i don't know. it's clear it is not just hypothyroidism or else as others have suggested women would be effected as well. it could be a lack of zinc because men orgasm and lose zinc in their ejaculate while women would get zinc from men and absorb it.. tmi, but i think it is possible. can a lack of zinc cause histamine?

 

[Constatine]

I just started shedding for the first time due to dramatically increasing 5-ar derived androgens via supplementation. I am not so simple minded that I believe the hairloss is caused by DHT, but it is indeed caused by the supplementation (perhaps estrogenic metabolites of DHT or a lack of anti-inflammatory agents that should naturally rise with DHT...probably not). If you were to look at certain populations like homeless people or Nigerians you would see physical characteristics hinting at very high DHT levels, however these populations almost never endure hair loss. Hair loss is no doubt related to androgens but androgens are not inherently the bad guys, it is more likely that hair loss is due to a lack of regulatory factors regarding androgen utilization etc. The question is why do certain populations not lose their hair and others do despite similar androgen profiles. Also what is the relationship between androgens and histamines because histamines are obviously a core problem here.

 

[LukeL]

@mayweatherking I have had a similar experience as you. I have diffuse thinning hair loss and I can't seem to stop it. I have seemingly tried everything 'peaty' and nothing has helped. My "itch" has gone significantly down when my diet is peaty perfect but the hair loss continues...I will say I am probably not getting enough protein and most days I barely hit 2000 cals but I just can't seem to eat more than that! It's been really hard getting my appetite up especially eating 'peaty' foods. If I could eat cheeseburgers and pizza every day I guarantee I would hit at least 2500 cals per day. I am currently taking very small amounts of T3 and a small nibble of T3/T4 before bed...anything above a small nibble gives me adrenaline symptoms.

I experience the itch after orgasm as well. Your theory about zinc seems interesting as I've read on forums that one loses a lot of zinc through ejaculation (I haven't read any studies on this so I can't confirm the validity of these claims). Although I eat oysters almost every day so I should have sufficient zinc in my system at all times... The only thing I can think of is we are somehow not absorbing the nutrients properly when we eat - Due to endotoxin?? I have even tried 2 weeks of penicillin. I feel like it helped a little bit but it definitely didn't solve anything for me. Maybe I need another round to get rid of the endotoxin?

Cows milk doesn't digest well with me but I can tolerate Goat's milk - it's hard for me to drink a half gallon of milk a day...

I'm curious of how much Vitamin A people are taking who have stopped their hair loss?

Also my scalp (galea) is much stiffer than my sides and I am going to make a concerted effort to massage my scalp daily and see if this helps - maybe inversions as well. Has anyone had luck with inversions?

- I feel like this guy has had legitimate success with his exercises. Watch this subsequent video as well (his hair looks thicker and more filled in) -

Just know you're not a lone @mayweatherking and we will get through this.

 

[mayweatherking]

@mayweatherking I have had a similar experience as you. I have diffuse thinning hair loss and I can't seem to stop it. I have seemingly tried everything 'peaty' and nothing has helped. My "itch" has gone significantly down when my diet is peaty perfect but the hair loss continues...I will say I am probably not getting enough protein and most days I barely hit 2000 cals but I just can't seem to eat more than that! It's been really hard getting my appetite up especially eating 'peaty' foods. If I could eat cheeseburgers and pizza every day I guarantee I would hit at least 2500 cals per day. I am currently taking very small amounts of T3 and a small nibble of T3/T4 before bed...anything above a small nibble gives me adrenaline symptoms.

I experience the itch after orgasm as well. Your theory about zinc seems interesting as I've read on forums that one loses a lot of zinc through ejaculation (I haven't read any studies on this so I can't confirm the validity of these claims). Although I eat oysters almost every day so I should have sufficient zinc in my system at all times... The only thing I can think of is we are somehow not absorbing the nutrients properly when we eat - Due to endotoxin?? I have even tried 2 weeks of penicillin. I feel like it helped a little bit but it definitely didn't solve anything for me. Maybe I need another round to get rid of the endotoxin?

Cows milk doesn't digest well with me but I can tolerate Goat's milk - it's hard for me to drink a half gallon of milk a day...

I'm curious of how much Vitamin A people are taking who have stopped their hair loss?

Also my scalp (galea) is much stiffer than my sides and I am going to make a concerted effort to massage my scalp daily and see if this helps - maybe inversions as well. Has anyone had luck with inversions?

- I feel like this guy has had legitimate success with his exercises. Watch this subsequent video as well (his hair looks thicker and more filled in) -

Just know you're not a lone @mayweatherking and we will get through this.

i think i know what the issue is to some extent. basically, whenver i eat anythign spikes blood sugar high, it will cause an "itch". the reason, i'm not sure. that's interesting you say that zinc could not be absorbed, you know, you could be right. what if basically we are hypothyroid, then nutrients aren't absorbed because when we eat foods that are too insulin intesnsive, it casues a cortisol reaction. i've seemingly been able to completely eliminate the "itch" by removing insulin heavy foods while i can't handle it right now, like milk, ice cream, anything with white sugar in general, and just suing fruit sources for carbs. i'm pretty sure that is the isssue. i still have dadnruff though so i don't know if it will lead to something that else, but that is something.

it could be the poor blood sugar regulation leading to fungus leading to hair loss due to dandruff? that is my thought on it now. i think the high prolactin allows for glycosis to happen, so the body just uses stress hormoens more, then it leads down the line to this? i'm hoping if i do this for around a week, maybe it will make a big difference? lol. egg shell calcium is treating me very well now. i also have anti fungals i'm going to utilize.

the after fap problem, that could be related to the increase in prolactin, causing more glycosis?

 

[mayweatherking]

i dont think you can handle calcium from dairy because it spikes insulin really really high and it is just too much stress for the body right now... it needs to be egg shell calcium, it really causes shock for me, it causes me constipation too for that reason i think, i think it is just increasing cortisol, i treid with white sugar, similar reaction, i get dry hands, i dont think enough calcium/mag is in the cell to handle the insulin spikes, its not enough from teh milk itself, it has to be pre built up i think, maybe.