Hypothetical Iron Question

[messtafarian]

I have really *really* low iron and I know that RP says not to supplement.

I was wondering, just hypothetically -- what would happen if a person had NO iron stores at all? Would they die? On the internet -- Yahoo Voices and so forth -- the A to the Q is YES, you would die if you had no iron in your body.

But is it true?

 

[Such_Saturation]

You would be a blue blood

 

[johns74]

If you feel like ***t, and you feel better after eating liver without coffee (to absorb iron), would that suggest you were in fact deficient?

 

[messtafarian]

I don't know the answer to that, johns74. My iron status has been decreed by blood test.

 

[jyb]

I have really *really* low iron and I know that RP says not to supplement.

By that he means you can use food instead of supplements. Liver and clams are very high in iron. Steak not at all, in comparison.

That assumes you can survive, eating those foods frequently until stores increase. If you supplemented, it becomes easy to get an extremely high dose but you may or may not get damaged from them.

 

[messtafarian]

Thanks jyb -- what I want to know is whether a person would die without any iron stores at all. The reason I'm asking is because my iron (ferritin) is at like, 4, and my total iron binding capacity is 512 out of 450 or something ( overcapacity to store iron). My hemoglobin, though, is 10.9, not too shabby for a person with incredibly low stores. My iron stores have not been correctible but I did have a slight rise in hemoglobin when I was eating purely Peat.

So my question is what happens if I get to zero?

 

[johns74]

messtafarian, if I were in you place, I would like to know whether one has symptoms first, a good amount of time before dying, so you could start increasing iron then.

Whether you can die, if it goes to zero, of course you can, you can't go to zero in anything essential, and iron is essential for life.

 

[jyb]

Thanks jyb -- what I want to know is whether a person would die without any iron stores at all. The reason I'm asking is because my iron (ferritin) is at like, 4, and my total iron binding capacity is 512 out of 450 or something ( overcapacity to store iron). My hemoglobin, though, is 10.9, not too shabby for a person with incredibly low stores. My iron stores have not been correctible but I did have a slight rise in hemoglobin when I was eating purely Peat.

But is it decreasing? If it goes low enough, you could get serious damage I'd think so obviously measures should be taken to increase iron stores (if they are too low) with regular blood tests to monitor the situation.

 

[messtafarian]

Well the iron stores are stable but the TIBC is going up. I am working on getting more iron -- taking supplements a couple hours after coffee and so on. The thing is I've had heavy menorrhagia for many many years and never worried much about the slightly low hemoglobin. I stopped bleeding entirely a couple months ago and there is a possibility that my body is still catching up, but there is still a long way to go. Since the iron stores are stable from May to November I can probably be confident that they won't go any lower.

I have been supplementing on and off for a couple of years and sometimes this resulting in higher hemoglobin, but since I've been reading Peat I worry sometimes that I should not be doing that. Supplementing has sort of been going in cycles for that reason. Peat told the iron story about how they used to use arsenic instead of iron, and so I wondered if people really need iron *at all.*

 

[tara]

I agree with comments above: yes you need iron to live, but if the levels are stable and your hemoglobin is not drastically low, you don't seem in any imminent danger. I agree that food iron is safer than supplements. Eat a little liver every day?

 

[moss]

messtafarian, my iron levels recently showed a reading of below 5 (ferritin (due to prolonged bouts of menorrhagia). My haemoglobin levels were on the low side as well. My understanding is Dr Peat does not necessarily disagree with supplementation when absolutely needed. I recently had a round of 5 intramuscular ferritin shots (every 3 days) and received my results yesterday with a reading of 55. I should warn you that intramuscular ferritin shots are a bit painful and not particularly pleasant, but I can tell you that I now feel 100% better. I should also say that I was under dosing with protest-e and shall raise accordingly at the next period. I also know that my commitment to eating for energy using Ray Peat’s methods has definitely sustained me through this period and allowed me to soldier on in spite of drastically low ferritin levels. After the first shot, within 10 minutes I could take a full breath with no tightness in my chest. Another interesting effect after each shot was that I felt that I could open my eyes wider and could see with much more clarity. After the first 3 shots these sensations would last around 8 hours then subside, which I now realize was an indication of how low my ferritin level was. With the final 2 shots, I’ve been feeling better in a sustained way (as my reading yesterday bears out).

Personally, I would not take iron tabs to correct such a low ferritin reading. I also don't think iron transfusions are necessarily the way to go either. Many people can experience unpleasant reactions from the transfusions - such as nausea, chills, listlessness and, ironically, having to go to bed for a day or two! If your ferritin levels are that low, then you are probably not able to utilise thyroid effectively either. Low ferritin levels also mess with your emotions, respiration and body temperature.….and, I believe, it can place great stress on your heart. Getting your ferritin levels up will make a world of difference for you. If you choose to take tabs and get constipated, try taking a quarter tab daily for a week and building up over a few weeks and have your coffee away from iron and, if you drink orange juice, have it with your iron.
I don't intend to supplement again, as food is always the best option, however, in this instance supplementation really did help me.
Hope this is of some help.

moss

 

[Sheila]

I seem to recall that arsenic had a stimulatory effect on red blood cell manufacture. I speculate that is is because it is in some ways perceived as a threat and increase in RBC production is the defensive response. Continue that for too long and the toxicity overwhelms any perceived 'benefit' of course.

I suspect that chemo-therapy in the early stages also has that effect in some people, enough of a threat to effect a positive change, at least initially. Maybe even some artificial metabolic stimulation and it's the latter that offers any positive effect. I suspect some other toxins can do this too, small amounts of radiation may be in this list, doesn't make it good of course, even a defensive reaction pulls energy from somewhere.

Where there is not iron deficiency and iron store deficiency caused by frank blood loss (per Moss above), then iron supplementation isn't warranted in my experience, but when used (as it often is outside RP circles) to 'deal with' low Hb levels (which, as we know can have a number of deficiency causes - protein, calcium, b6, b9, b12, parasites etc) it gives some people a metabolic lift, they get more energy temporarily and conclude they were 'iron deficient'. Keep the supplementation going and they no longer feel the effect, which is of course a sign of a deeper issue.

I speculate again that these kinds of people probably have sufficient iron but it's not available - much like Haemochromatosics store it but, oddly enough, can have anaemic symptomatology - and supplementation makes it more available temporarily. The question is of course at what risk. I seem to recall that iron plays a role in thyroid metabolism but I'm jiggered if I can find the chart that expounded that connection, it's here somewhere!

Does anyone else know where this fits? (if indeed it does?) That might then explain why sometimes a little iron gets the ball rolling again, but it's not a 'real' iron deficiency, it's a utilisation problem in most and that has to be a hypothyroid/hypometabolism issue. I'm not saying do it, I'm asking if any of this reasoning is sound.

Just some thoughts. Thanks.

Sheila

 

[messtafarian]

Thanks for comments all. I wish I could get an injection but I have asked for it several times and was told it was "too dangerous" and also that in order to be accurately assessed I would need a full upper and lower GI to make sure " I was not bleeding internally."

So I don't want an upper and lower GI. But now that I know my iron stores -- a test I had to wait six months to get -- are so low I will supplement. I found this product that has high absorption because it is basically "iron water." I've heard good things about it and I've started taking one a day but I think I'll bump it up to two.

http://www.nelsonsnaturalworld.com/en-u ... pur-absorb

 

[messtafarian]

Sheila, that is kind of why I asked the question. If too much iron can give one the "symptoms of anemia" then what is the point of all that iron storage, and do we need any? And if arsenic makes hemoglobin as a response to threat...then..what is it doing when it makes hemoglobin as a response to iron?

Curious, eh.

 

[Sheila]

Yes I think we do certainly need iron, our RBC system seems to have been designed with iron in mind. Shellfish use copper for the same purpose I believe, and magnesium is the centre of the chlorophyll molecule in plants. Not sure I can stretch the analogy that far but mag seems pretty crucial if you are indeed a plant.

I think that the issue is utilisation and that is utterly energy at cells dependent.

We absorb, store and excrete many things and there are certain optimal levels and places for any storage. We need calcium but have huge stores of it in our bones for example, but we still need some, daily. If the energy of the system gets depleted though it's like the iron, in this example, is in the filing cabinet but it's locked and inaccessible. So my hypothesis is that arsenic can stimulate the system to produce new red blood cells, not that arsenic is used in haemoglobin synthesis per se. Another analogy would be that cells replicate under stress and one of the signals for this is taking up of water. The stress can be many things, maybe arsenic is that stress that stimulates RBC to be produced. I just don't know.

Long way of saying, iron - in a person-appropriate amount is needed to make haemoglobin, it's part of the molecule (haem) but arsenic, amongst many stressors, can stimulate that need but is not, I think, part of that process itself.

It may be that there is a small physiological role for arsenic, or it can play a fill-in role depending on its oxidation state, just as lead can 'swap in' for calcium especially where calcium uptake is deficient. In the latter case however, lead's a brick that doesn't fit and damages mitochondrial processes from thereonin preventing energy generation full stop. At higher levels arsenic may well do the same, everything has a tolerance and again I think energy is the key.

 

[Sheila]

Oh dear there's more.

I knew I'd seen arsenic somewhere in my travels. From "Minerals and the Genetic Code" by Charles Walters, ACRES USA, based on the work of Dr Richard Olree connecting the periodic chart of Walter Russell to human biology....caveat emptor....

"#49 Arsenic.
"The mineral is a profound requirement for living systems....In pregnancy, the arsenic level goes up tenfold if the child is to be a boy. Without such a level, spontaneous abortion becomes the inevitable result. Pine needles crushed and steeped as a tea in boiling water deliver enough arsenic to prevent miscarriage.
.. ..

A combination of two natural toxins - arsenic and bryostatin - may be a powerful new treatment for certain kinds of leukaemia, claims a study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science.
Researchers at John Hopkins Kimmel Cancer Centre found that arsenic, long used to treat certain leukaemias activates the same cellular self-destruct mechanism as byrostatin - a toxin found in coral-like organisms called bryozoans which attach themselves to piers, boat hulls and rocky surfaces.

Arsenic is known to be effective against treatment-resistant acute promyleocytic leukaemia (APL). It is a cancer of the blood and bone marrow characterized by unhealthy white blood cells. APL is a subtype of acute myeloid leukaemia, the most common form of adult leukaemias.

Until now [pub. 2006], scientists didn't fully understand how arsenic actually kills cancer cells. The John Hopskins scientists used molecular studies to discover that arsenic activates NADPH oxidase, an oxygen-producing enzyme complex. "When normal white blooc cells engulf invading bacteria, NADPH oxidase produces a big burst of bad oxygen species which they dump into bacteria to kill it and, in the process, kill themselves," Chi V. Dang, a vice dean for research and professor of medicine, cell biology, pathology, and oncology, says in a prepared statement. "We found that in APL, arsenic triggers activation of NADPH oxidase and uses this natural bacteria-killing mechanisms against the leukaemia cells - in essence a self-destruct switch."

I had heard that pine needle tea was used as an old folk remedy for pregnancy Up North. I should point out that arsenic is definitely a cause of miscarriages as well and more usually highlighted as that. The WHO's deep water supply drilling in India and Bangladesh has rendered approximately 30 million people with arsenic poisoning, maybe a tenth of them will get cancers (usually urinary tract) as a result, because no one thought about the shale type from which the water came.....So it seems as Paracelsus stated: "the dose makes the poison".

If anyone has anything else on arsenic and NADPH, I'd be interested. Thanks. Sheila.

 

[BingDing]

Iron is used in the Krebs cycle and electron transport chain of oxidative respiration, so yes you would die without it. And you'd feel like s*** before you died.

IIRC, in his article about anemia Ray was mostly criticizing the medical practice of automatically prescribing iron for anemia. Anemia means low RBCs and there is more to evaluate before using iron. The fact that RBCs increase in response to the toxicants arsenic and iron does not indicate a deficiency of the toxicants. And he also suggested there are times when increasing iron intake is the right thing to do.

 

[natedawggh]

Sheila, that is kind of why I asked the question. If too much iron can give one the "symptoms of anemia" then what is the point of all that iron storage, and do we need any? And if arsenic makes hemoglobin as a response to threat...then..what is it doing when it makes hemoglobin as a response to iron?

Curious, eh.

Your affinity for Iron increases as your storage levels decrease. Meaning the body absorbs iron more easily if it is low in it. Ray has also said that it is pretty much impossible to avoid iron, and if you have liver that would be a healthy dose, especially for someone who's body needs it. Unless you have really awful symptoms I wouldn't worry too much about it... the idea that we need a lot of iron to avoid anemia has been refuted by Ray in a few articles, indeed your tests have shown an increase in hemoglobin despite a low level of iron. Also, I think I remember seeing somewhere that blood tests of iron levels are not truly indicative of whole body iron levels, and that a hair test would be more accurate, but would still not reflect the levels in tissues such as the liver and kidneys and heart. Getting an injection may not have been the reason for the other responder's feeling relief, an injection of so much iron would definitely have triggered a stress response, and they may have been feeling the temporary benefits of high levels of stress hormones. High doses of iron destroy mitochondria, so all those cells in the presence of the shot were probably suffocating, hence the pain, and an influx of compensatory stress hormones.

But the answer to your questions is yes, you would probably not live long without ANY iron, but you would have to stop eating altogether to reach zero. Even milk contains some iron.

 

[messtafarian]

Hm, that's interesting, natedawggh. You wouldn't happen to know if there is a potential "false reading" for iron storage, would you?

 

[visionofstrength]

messtafarian, my iron levels recently showed a reading of below 5 (ferritin (due to prolonged bouts of menorrhagia). My haemoglobin levels were on the low side as well. My understanding is Dr Peat does not necessarily disagree with supplementation when absolutely needed. I recently had a round of 5 intramuscular ferritin shots (every 3 days) and received my results yesterday with a reading of 55. I should warn you that intramuscular ferritin shots are a bit painful and not particularly pleasant, but I can tell you that I now feel 100% better. I should also say that I was under dosing with protest-e and shall raise accordingly at the next period. I also know that my commitment to eating for energy using Ray Peat’s methods has definitely sustained me through this period and allowed me to soldier on in spite of drastically low ferritin levels. After the first shot, within 10 minutes I could take a full breath with no tightness in my chest. Another interesting effect after each shot was that I felt that I could open my eyes wider and could see with much more clarity. After the first 3 shots these sensations would last around 8 hours then subside, which I now realize was an indication of how low my ferritin level was. With the final 2 shots, I’ve been feeling better in a sustained way (as my reading yesterday bears out).

Personally, I would not take iron tabs to correct such a low ferritin reading. I also don't think iron transfusions are necessarily the way to go either. Many people can experience unpleasant reactions from the transfusions - such as nausea, chills, listlessness and, ironically, having to go to bed for a day or two! If your ferritin levels are that low, then you are probably not able to utilise thyroid effectively either. Low ferritin levels also mess with your emotions, respiration and body temperature.….and, I believe, it can place great stress on your heart. Getting your ferritin levels up will make a world of difference for you. If you choose to take tabs and get constipated, try taking a quarter tab daily for a week and building up over a few weeks and have your coffee away from iron and, if you drink orange juice, have it with your iron.
I don't intend to supplement again, as food is always the best option, however, in this instance supplementation really did help me.
Hope this is of some help.

moss

Thanks, moss. I had somehow missed the role of ferritin until I came across this. Learned something new! Takeaway: low ferritin: bad (hypothyroidism), high ferritin: bad (inflammation). Moderate ferritin binds iron: good. Excess iron: poison.