Hypogonadism

[Hairlosssucks]

By this, if you go by how you feel, a stress-supressed apetite leads you down the path of never having the chemical energy to product much of anything let alone be in a state to creatr hormones and burn calories

Ahh I see what you mean, but if I eat a calorie surplus wont I put on weight further lowering my t?

 

[Cirion]

Ahh I see what you mean, but if I eat a calorie surplus wont I put on weight further lowering my t?

No. Well, at first it might. I am in the process, and very close, to disproving the whole theory that calories make you fat--I'm planning to write a book about it once I've finalized my findings for certain. For example yesterday I ate 5,400 calories and the scale dropped half a pound.

But more accurately, I recommend a carbohydrate surplus as it is carbs that almost directly increase metabolism. Don't eat too many fats or proteins, as too much of these can indeed cause weight gain. I ate 1,000 gram of carbs, 190 gram of protein, and 70 gram of fat w/ the 5400 calories. So just moderate levels of fats and proteins with carbs taking up the majority.

 

[SB4]

@Cirion how much fat have you lost and how long have you being doing this. Interestingly those macros fall into the range of carbosis.

 

[Frankdee20]

I am trying to stay away from these T based threads. I guess I will never know life with anything higher than 400's. No matter what supplement I try.

 

[Cirion]

@Cirion how much fat have you lost and how long have you being doing this. Interestingly those macros fall into the range of carbosis.

I have just started the journey so not much yet which is why I say, my findings aren't finalized yet. But I'm feeling confident at this point. Because I've got about a couple months worth of detailed data (I am tracking 100+ parameters from macros to micros to # hrs sleep and more) that have led me to this point. At this point, now I just need to get further tracking under my belt to go from 90-95% confidence of my strategy to 100%. Obviously once I start losing significant weight like 20+ lb is when my confidence will rise to 100%.

Actually, what you should aim for, rather than weight loss, is a 98.6F+ waking temp and a 85 bpm waking pulse. Both of these Ray has talked about, of people who have ideal/optimal metabolism. My findings have shown that if I can accomplish both, 9 times out of 10, weight loss is automatically the result. And you can typically only achieve a high waking temp and high waking pulse via high caloric (carb) intake. So there are basically two ways to lose weight. One: High metabolism (98.6F and 85 BPM waking temps and pulses) OR severely slash calories. I choose the former. I used to slash calories, I'm done doing that. Broda barnes says that 97.8-98.2F waking temp is sufficient to not be classified hypothyroid, but I disagree. Anything less than 98.6F waking temp is hypothyroid. Period. I feel like **** with less than 98.6F, and like superman when waking temp is >= 98.6F (and pulse 85+).

 

[Cirion]

I am trying to stay away from these T based threads. I guess I will never know life with anything higher than 400's. No matter what supplement I try.

Supplements aren't the answer. I take zero supplements and can accomplish 98.6F waking temp and 85 BPM waking pulse. Although I'm thinking of adding eggshell calcium since I don't eat dairy. No supplement can solve a fundamental energy deficit (Lack of calories/carbs).

I don't think even thyroid is helpful if you're not eating enough calories. Thyroid didn't do much for me. But maybe now that I'm eating a lot more carbs it might, but I feel no need to play with it again since I know I can get 98.6F temp and 85 BPM pulse without it.

 

[postman]

No. Well, at first it might. I am in the process, and very close, to disproving the whole theory that calories make you fat--I'm planning to write a book about it once I've finalized my findings for certain. For example yesterday I ate 5,400 calories and the scale dropped half a pound.

But more accurately, I recommend a carbohydrate surplus as it is carbs that almost directly increase metabolism. Don't eat too many fats or proteins, as too much of these can indeed cause weight gain. I ate 1,000 gram of carbs, 190 gram of protein, and 70 gram of fat w/ the 5400 calories. So just moderate levels of fats and proteins with carbs taking up the majority.

You should make a thread about your diet, it sounds interesting

 

[Cirion]

You should make a thread about your diet, it sounds interesting

Already have =)

Determining Effect Of Diet On Metabolism And Weight Loss/Gain Through Data Collection

Here is one of the more interesting sets of plots I have put together so far. These were some of the plots that drove me to eat the macros I am doing now. I have since determined that 3-day rolling average plots are a little more accurate, and have been fine-tuning using those.

 

[postman]

Already have =)

Determining Effect Of Diet On Metabolism And Weight Loss/Gain Through Data Collection

Here is one of the more interesting sets of plots I have put together so far. These were some of the plots that drove me to eat the macros I am doing now. I have since determined that 3-day rolling average plots are a little more accurate, and have been fine-tuning using those.

 

[Hairlosssucks]

No. Well, at first it might. I am in the process, and very close, to disproving the whole theory that calories make you fat--I'm planning to write a book about it once I've finalized my findings for certain. For example yesterday I ate 5,400 calories and the scale dropped half a pound.

But more accurately, I recommend a carbohydrate surplus as it is carbs that almost directly increase metabolism. Don't eat too many fats or proteins, as too much of these can indeed cause weight gain. I ate 1,000 gram of carbs, 190 gram of protein, and 70 gram of fat w/ the 5400 calories. So just moderate levels of fats and proteins with carbs taking up the majority.

Could you lay out what you diet is from morning to evening, if you don’t mine mate.

 

[ilhanxx]

hey guys, can you help me, i think i am in the hypogonadal level, i am peating. i feel very good when i am peating. But my testosteron levels doesn't change, always 300-320. My tests are below. what is best score of 25-oh-d

 

[boxers]

I would go on hcg and trt. You have been here for a year and people are suggesting more calories and drinking coffee.. surely you must have tried all this? This is something i learned on day 1. IF your truly hypogonadism, nothing will work

 

[Cirion]

I would go on hcg and trt. You have been here for a year and people are suggesting more calories and drinking coffee.. surely you must have tried all this? This is something i learned on day 1. IF your truly hypogonadism, nothing will work

Well, that's certainly a fatalistic way to approach it. It may not be easy, but it sure can be done. My situation is arguably one of the hardest to overcome out of anyone on these forums, as I have been at it for 2 yrs, but I've finally almost got it through sheer determination. Never give up.

 

[boxers]

Well, that's certainly a fatalistic way to approach it. It may not be easy, but it sure can be done. My situation is arguably one of the hardest to overcome out of anyone on these forums, as I have been at it for 2 yrs, but I've finally almost got it through sheer determination. Never give up.

I guess I am biased. Because testosterone works and works very well. I wasted about 6 years trying all the diet and natural stuff. It rarely works and may work better if your secondary or have other issues that's causing the low testosterone. I have a pituitary issue so nothing natural will work for me. I personally wouldn't give it more than a 1-2 years before going on TRT, especially if your levels are near bottom of range or lower. If your younger than 25 id give it more time to bounce back too.

Why not try a low dose topical testosterone from your doctor? Could always stop and go off after several weeks.

 

[RobertJM]

I’m in the same boat. Exactly the same level of testosterone, and it’s been the same for years (400). Nothing improves it. But get this, I’m 6ft, muscular, I have thick facial hair and a deep voice. Yet a teenager with no facial hair, a squeaky voice and no muscle can have twice my testosterone level. I think these hormonal lab values are pretty meaningless. I paid £300 to have all my hormones tested and to be told that I have low everything basically. My DHT is also 29 (an absolute joke). Yet girls tell me I’m ‘manly’. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. They are just numbers on a screen and tell me nothing.

I also have ED, and that’s a fairly obvious side effect of my hormonal status situation I guess (?), but what can I do? Nothing on this forum has worked. And I’ve been hardcore PUFA restricting for five years now.

So I give no more craps about this silly insignificant rubbish (hormonal labs). There’s more important things to worry about in life. And not wasting my money on it again.

Put it this way, the RP lifestyle has done nothing for my androgens. I’ve messaged Peat himself and he doesn’t have any answers because as we know, he’s never going to compromise his own position by risking his neck and giving out medical advice to people. Hence his answers are always ‘how is your thyroid and vitamin D status’. I love the guy, but you are very much on your own with this stuff. After my health problems started (years after following his dietary/lifestyle recommendations) my family have been trying to beg me to stop bothering with these alternative health interests (they think my alternative approach, in opposition to mainstream advice, has led to my health issues), and the embarrassing thing is, I don’t have a leg to stand on. I can’t exactly disagree with them. It used to be me guiding them and trying to make recommendations to them (because I knew ‘the truth’), and now they realise that I was wrong all along, and they now think that I am a quack that has been following the wrong advice. And they are right. Well they are. The results speak for themselves. I have chronically low androgens, ED and proteinuria. And I presume that is just the start of my health problems. My situation, as I age, will only get progressively worse and not better.

So where do I go from here? Go on the dark web and get TRT? What else can I do? I will always restrict PUFA. That’s one thing I take with me from the Peat lifestyle, but I follow nothing else that he advises because it hasn’t really worked out for me.

Just reading this back, it sounds like I’m ranting. I’m really not. Just letting you guys know that you’re not the only ones with this miserable disorder.

I need to PM some ppl to speak about TRT and how to get it. I get one life and that’s it. I’ve wasted enough of my time with this now.

Good luck to everyone #thumbs up

 

[Cirion]

I don't even do hormonal labs personally. Temps and pulses tell you all you need to know. Get 98.6F temp waking every day and 85 BPM waking every day, profit. Guarantee if you consistently achieve those # each and every day you are androgenic AF. The key is to get those #'s on waking each day. It's not enough to reach those temps during the daytime, and I speak from experience here. The waking #'s are by far the most important biomarkers. Oh and while we're on the subject of PUFA, I just put these plots together:

This is from my personal database (personally measured) and proof that around 4g (Which BTW, funny enough, is a frequent # thrown around by many forum members), is roughly the cutoff at which point PUFA wreaks havoc on temp, pulse, and body weight.

You are right though, PUFA is but one of many factors that must be optimized. Lowering PUFA alone is not a guarantee (as you'll note, I have many data points below 4G pufa that still result in weight gain) so, the whole forest must be considered not just one tree (PUFA).

 

[CLASH]

Exercise generally consists of cardio (I’m trying to lose weight, so it increases my t) and body weight exercises.

Breakfast is eggs, fruit, OJ and yogurt

Lunch is generally carbs

Dinner Normally meats and vegs, sometimes soup, stew or bone broth

This is all my experience, not advice, I’m not a doctor:

Cardio= no go, I like hypertrophy exercises peformed with adequate rest in between each set better (i shoot for 2 min rest)

It looks like your in a caloric deficit overall. I like to track my macros: 30-40% carbs, 40-50% fats, 20% proteins. I personally shoot for .6-.8g/lb of bodyweight of protein, I determine calories with the katch-mccardle formula and activity multipliers. This gave me a base set up for my diet.

I personally avoid dairy because of the opiate induced prolactin effect. I think this is hit or miss with people but if your having low t it might be helpful to implement.

In my experience animal / saturated/ moninaaturated fats are supremely important for testosterone production. In my experience they dont cause any weight gain, they actually made me leaner and stronger. I use beef tallow and coconut oil. I think the reason alot of young guys are suffering from low T is because of all this low fat garbage. I havent found the idea of sugars converting to cholesterol and then leading to hormone production so valid. When I went low fat I had hormone issues as well. They all dissipated once i raised my fat significantly.

I use mostly fruit juice and fruit sugar. It works better for me than starches. I think this is more personal overall. Sources of starch i like tho are yams and white rice. The point is carbs are very neccesary. Despite the current dogma of the ray peat forum about mixing carbs and fat (i think its BS overall) adequate fat and adequate carbs are both needed for hormonal function and i dont think, or at the very least I havent experienced it making anyone fat. I have experienced low fat giving people hormonal issues and pudgy centers tho.... N=1 but I eat 200g of fat a day and 300-400g of sugar (120-150g protein) and I’m lean regardless of if I workout. I’m 185lbs upon waking at 6’2”, probably between 10-12% bodyfat. I’ve maintained this on those macros without dieting or doing cardio for more than a year.

 

[postman]

I’m in the same boat. Exactly the same level of testosterone, and it’s been the same for years (400). Nothing improves it. But get this, I’m 6ft, muscular, I have thick facial hair and a deep voice. Yet a teenager with no facial hair, a squeaky voice and no muscle can have twice my testosterone level. I think these hormonal lab values are pretty meaningless. I paid £300 to have all my hormones tested and to be told that I have low everything basically. My DHT is also 29 (an absolute joke). Yet girls tell me I’m ‘manly’. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. They are just numbers on a screen and tell me nothing.

I also have ED, and that’s a fairly obvious side effect of my hormonal status situation I guess (?), but what can I do? Nothing on this forum has worked. And I’ve been hardcore PUFA restricting for five years now.

So I give no more craps about this silly insignificant rubbish (hormonal labs). There’s more important things to worry about in life. And not wasting my money on it again.

Put it this way, the RP lifestyle has done nothing for my androgens. I’ve messaged Peat himself and he doesn’t have any answers because as we know, he’s never going to compromise his own position by risking his neck and giving out medical advice to people. Hence his answers are always ‘how is your thyroid and vitamin D status’. I love the guy, but you are very much on your own with this stuff. After my health problems started (years after following his dietary/lifestyle recommendations) my family have been trying to beg me to stop bothering with these alternative health interests (they think my alternative approach, in opposition to mainstream advice, has led to my health issues), and the embarrassing thing is, I don’t have a leg to stand on. I can’t exactly disagree with them. It used to be me guiding them and trying to make recommendations to them (because I knew ‘the truth’), and now they realise that I was wrong all along, and they now think that I am a quack that has been following the wrong advice. And they are right. Well they are. The results speak for themselves. I have chronically low androgens, ED and proteinuria. And I presume that is just the start of my health problems. My situation, as I age, will only get progressively worse and not better.

So where do I go from here? Go on the dark web and get TRT? What else can I do? I will always restrict PUFA. That’s one thing I take with me from the Peat lifestyle, but I follow nothing else that he advises because it hasn’t really worked out for me.

Just reading this back, it sounds like I’m ranting. I’m really not. Just letting you guys know that you’re not the only ones with this miserable disorder.

I need to PM some ppl to speak about TRT and how to get it. I get one life and that’s it. I’ve wasted enough of my time with this now.

Good luck to everyone #thumbs up

I think the standard "Peat protocol" is absolutely terrible for androgen levels. And by that I mean plenty of dairy, coconut oil, and sugar, all these things lower testosterone. I don't think some of his general ideas are wrong though, like with PUFA as you mentioned. Large amounts of coffee has been very helpful for me.

 

[Cirion]

This is all my experience, not advice, I’m not a doctor:

Cardio= no go, I like hypertrophy exercises peformed with adequate rest in between each set better (i shoot for 2 min rest)

It looks like your in a caloric deficit overall. I like to track my macros: 30-40% carbs, 40-50% fats, 20% proteins. I personally shoot for .6-.8g/lb of bodyweight of protein, I determine calories with the katch-mccardle formula and activity multipliers. This gave me a base set up for my diet.

I personally avoid dairy because of the opiate induced prolactin effect. I think this is hit or miss with people but if your having low t it might be helpful to implement.

In my experience animal / saturated/ moninaaturated fats are supremely important for testosterone production. In my experience they dont cause any weight gain, they actually made me leaner and stronger. I use beef tallow and coconut oil. I think the reason alot of young guys are suffering from low T is because of all this low fat garbage. I havent found the idea of sugars converting to cholesterol and then leading to hormone production so valid. When I went low fat I had hormone issues as well. They all dissipated once i raised my fat significantly.

I use mostly fruit juice and fruit sugar. It works better for me than starches. I think this is more personal overall. Sources of starch i like tho are yams and white rice. The point is carbs are very neccesary. Despite the current dogma of the ray peat forum about mixing carbs and fat (i think its BS overall) adequate fat and adequate carbs are both needed for hormonal function and i dont think, or at the very least I havent experienced it making anyone fat. I have experienced low fat giving people hormonal issues and pudgy centers tho.... N=1 but I eat 200g of fat a day and 300-400g of sugar (120-150g protein) and I’m lean regardless of if I workout. I’m 185lbs upon waking at 6’2”, probably between 10-12% bodyfat. I’ve maintained this on those macros without dieting or doing cardio for more than a year.

Just curious, what are you waking temperature and pulses on that type of diet. In my opinion, 98.6F and 85BPM waking pulse is king above ALL other biometrics, and whatever diet achieves that, is the ideal diet (IMO). So far, for me personally, only an ultra high carb intake gets me to these biometrics. I have determined some fats are also needed to achieve these #'s, but not 200g, not for me at least.

I also think the ideal diet is probably way different for someone lean vs. someone who is fat. My hypothesis (Which will be fully tested on myself once I lose weight and get lean too) is that fatter people need high carb low fat and leaner people need higher fat and lower carb relatively speaking like what you eat now. Still a hypothesis, but it's for sure that too high fat intake causes my temps and pulses to crash.

 

[CLASH]

@Cirion
To be honest I dont track my pulse and temp anymore. It didnt seem all that helpful for me. When i did my heart rate was 60 bpm every day no matter what. My temp. was between 97.5 or so to 98.0.

I think you’d have to try higher fat in your current context before any conclusions can be made. Considering your context overall (from what you’ve posted on the forum) I’m not so sure that we can conclude pulse and temp are the ideal metrics above them all.

EDIT: I dont recommend everyone eat 200g of fat, this was just my example.