Hypoglycemia With Fruit

[yerrag]

The thing with my BG is it never gets really high - I’m hardly in the 120s, even after straight sugar.

Other people in worse shapes get to have higher blood sugar, but 120 isn't a good yardstick to be comparing against. In between meals, my blood sugar stabilizes at 84. I consider 75-90 to be what a fasting blood sugar should look like. At these levels, insulin is not secreted and there is no hypoglycemia. Don't hold me to that range though. You may still be in the sweet spot from 70-100, but a tighter range allows more room in case of some factor disturbing BS balance such as bacterial enzymes and when encountering psychological stress such as trauma.

Right after a meal, it's just normal to have high BS. I was shocked one time to see my BS go to 140 right after a meal, but then I realized that is natural. At that point, there isn't going to be an insulin response yet, as the body knows. It's allowing the body's tissues to absorb and metabolize the huge load of sugar. If the body is healthy, it will absorb and burn the sugar intake (even when it is sudden, as with taking simple sugars such as sugar and white rice or bread). When the body can't do that, which is common among many people, the body will secrete insulin to convert sugar to fatty acids via the liver. This way, it is able to store the unused energy. But in so doing, often it overdoes it and too much sugar is converted and this makes the blood sugar drop too low. This is how one gets to be hypoglycemic (Without insulin, one becomes hyperglycemic instead, which is often referred to as diabetes).

I'm not saying no insulin is ever produced in a healthy body though. There is just enough to help the blood sugar go down to good levels. The body knows.

I have been avoiding sweet potatoes because of the oxalate content.

I didn't know about oxalate in sweet potatoes is a thing. What is oxalate doing to you? Is it related to a particular condition of yours?

But I do agree it has a lot to do with glycogen storage issues. This used to be a major issue when I would get sick. My body would start burning my muscle for energy, even if I was drinking OJ all day (and night), to keep up with my immune system. I would start to really smell like bad keto acidosis. And end up with rhabdomyolysis. Thankfully that hasn’t happened since using B vitamins and eating this way. I’m also putting on muscle and can lift again!
I’m getting 90+g of protein per day. If I have more, I usually need more bread because of the insulin response. I wonder if more fruit juice with a ton of salt would help. As long as yesterday’s salt experiment wasn’t a flop.

It seems with muscle being spent and with being in ketosis (as indicated with the smell), you're having a hard time with converting protein to sugar (gluconeogenesis) and your body has to resort to ketogenesis to provide sugar-based energy for your brain and red blood cells, which relies solely on sugar metabolism.

It could be that gluconeogenesis is being inhibited. For now, I suspect that there is a lot of insulin being secreted in your system. This has to stop because your pancreas could be overworked. Pancreas also produce many enzymes and an overtaxed pancreas could affect for one your ability to digest protein and carbs well. If it's not happening now, it's something to watch out for. Also, I'm not sure, but it may in the future cause you to be type 1 diabetic.

You mentioned sugar metabolism issues, when you have the time will you please go into this further? And any thoughts on helping glycogen storage.

Hans recently made a thread on glucose metabolism. In it I made a post also. Please read his article and read my post as well. It covers these things:

Guide On How To Optimize Glucose Oxidation

 

[Lollipop2]

@yerrag here is a fairly decent thread about oxalate toxicity with resources. Pretty fascinating.

Oxalate Toxicity

 

[yerrag]

@yerrag here is a fairly decent thread about oxalate toxicity with resources. Pretty fascinating.

Oxalate Toxicity

Thanks! Reading it now.

 

[Recoen]

@yerrag I had a frozen shoulder; mastitis 3 times from high dose ascorbate acid->oxalate, and other oxalate issues. So it definitely helps me to eat a lower oxalate diet. I think my oxalate issues are more endogenous in nature though.

My insulin has always been low-normal when tested along with a low. And while I do have some fat I’m definitely not packing on the pounds at 107lbs. I used to weigh more in college and went up to 132lbs when I was pregnant.

I know RP and others have talked about how K acts like insulin. I wonder if my propensity for low BG has something to do with the intracellular K and extracellular Na. I question this because day two of higher salt intake was a success again.

 

[Recoen]

When I tried the Tyronene years ago, I wasn't particularly impressed with the effects. Could've been the batch. I haven't tried the other thyroid products from idealabs so can't comment on those.

I prefer the Cynomel and Cynoplus.

Thanks! I placed an order for both.

 

[yerrag]

Tyronene didn't work well for me until I took it sublingually, instead of topically. Thanks @redsun

I know RP and others have talked about how K acts like insulin. I wonder if my propensity for low BG has something to do with the intracellular K and extracellular Na. I question this because day two of higher salt intake was a success again.

Makes sense and explains why Energizer's advice is working. If low on sodium, the body will waste potassium. So when there's more sodium, less potassium is excreted. Low potassium is manifested as cramps externally. And high potassium intake doesn't work when magnesium stores are low. It only gets excreted. I took 800mg therapeutic magnesium for at least 6 months before dialing down to 400mg maintenance mode. Many people are afraid to go on therapeutic magnesium because they are afraid of overdosing. But when you take magnesium orally, you don't OD because the body won't let that happen. You'll just have diarrhea. I find magnesium bicarbonate ideal because it's easy to make, mag is 40% instead of 16% of the salt so you don't end up taking a lot of the chelate it's paired with (e. g. glycinate, taurate or acid - citrate), it isn't an acidic load (e. g. mag chloride), and the bicarbonate is helpful. I mix 500ml of seltzer water with 1g of magnesium hydroxide and shake (this gives me 400mg mag).

I had a frozen shoulder; mastitis 3 times from high dose ascorbate acid->oxalate, and other oxalate issues. So it definitely helps me to eat a lower oxalate diet. I think my oxalate issues are more endogenous in nature though.

I understand now. Instead of potatoes, you might want to try brown rice. It's what I took for 15 years in place of white rice. It really metered the assimilation of glucose into my blood, kept me from a sugar high and a sugar low (from insulin response), and allowed me to last in between meals, given my tendency to have hypoglycemia 2-3 hours after a meal.
You may lose a significant source of potassium when you stop eating a lot of fruits or its juice, so you may have to make up with high potassium vegetables that isn't high in oxalates.

What you were doing drinking fruit juice or eating fruits often is that you were keeping your system flooded with insulin continually. As insulin inhibits gluconeogenesis, the body isn't able to convert protein into sugar even if it were able to convert muscles to amino acids (proteolysis), and so you aren't making sugar when your blood sugar is low (which explains why your blood sugar can't recover the moment your blood sugar levels go low.

Is your BUN high from the breakdown of amino acids? Probably.

And maybe your body has to force ketogenesis to supply your brain with energy it can use. And thatncould explain you smell acetone from the ketone being produced? And also why you have brain fog?

I think the first thing is to find a good choice of carbs that suits your current poor glucose metabolic condition.

Then with that taken care of, you can work on improving your sugar metabolism.

When your sugar metabolism is optimal, all the other metabolic pathways - glycogenolysis, fatty acid oxidation, proteolysis and gluconeogenesis, and ketogenesis - will be working in concert, some in the background (glycogenolysis and fatty acid oxidation) and some in standby (proteolysis and gluconeogenesis - when glycogen stores are exhausted and blood sugar is low) and ketogenesis (when the other pathways are not making sugar available for the brain and red blood cells). All these pathways are coordinated by insulin (or its lack thereof). To repeat, this optimal state happens when bloog sugar regulation is optimal.

 

[Recoen]

Tyronene didn't work well for me until I took it sublingually, instead of topically. Thanks @redsun


Makes sense and explains why Energizer's advice is working. If low on sodium, the body will waste potassium. So when there's more sodium, less potassium is excreted. Low potassium is manifested as cramps externally. And high potassium intake doesn't work when magnesium stores are low. It only gets excreted. I took 800mg therapeutic magnesium for at least 6 months before dialing down to 400mg maintenance mode. Many people are afraid to go on therapeutic magnesium because they are afraid of overdosing. But when you take magnesium orally, you don't OD because the body won't let that happen. You'll just have diarrhea. I find magnesium bicarbonate ideal because it's easy to make, mag is 40% instead of 16% of the salt so you don't end up taking a lot of the chelate it's paired with (e. g. glycinate, taurate or acid - citrate), it isn't an acidic load (e. g. mag chloride), and the bicarbonate is helpful. I mix 500ml of seltzer water with 1g of magnesium hydroxide and shake (this gives me 400mg mag).


I understand now. Instead of potatoes, you might want to try brown rice. It's what I took for 15 years in place of white rice. It really metered the assimilation of glucose into my blood, kept me from a sugar high and a sugar low (from insulin response), and allowed me to last in between meals, given my tendency to have hypoglycemia 2-3 hours after a meal.
You may lose a significant source of potassium when you stop eating a lot of fruits or its juice, so you may have to make up with high potassium vegetables that isn't high in oxalates.

What you were doing drinking fruit juice or eating fruits often is that you were keeping your system flooded with insulin continually. As insulin inhibits gluconeogenesis, the body isn't able to convert protein into sugar even if it were able to convert muscles to amino acids (proteolysis), and so you aren't making sugar when your blood sugar is low (which explains why your blood sugar can't recover the moment your blood sugar levels go low.

Is your BUN high from the breakdown of amino acids? Probably.

And maybe your body has to force ketogenesis to supply your brain with energy it can use. And thatncould explain you smell acetone from the ketone being produced? And also why you have brain fog?

I think the first thing is to find a good choice of carbs that suits your current poor glucose metabolic condition.

Then with that taken care of, you can work on improving your sugar metabolism.

When your sugar metabolism is optimal, all the other metabolic pathways - glycogenolysis, fatty acid oxidation, proteolysis and gluconeogenesis, and ketogenesis - will be working in concert, some in the background (glycogenolysis and fatty acid oxidation) and some in standby (proteolysis and gluconeogenesis - when glycogen stores are exhausted and blood sugar is low) and ketogenesis (when the other pathways are not making sugar available for the brain and red blood cells). All these pathways are coordinated by insulin (or its lack thereof). To repeat, this optimal state happens when bloog sugar regulation is optimal.

My lower legs have been cramping more even with the increased K from all the fruit and juice. The Na seems to help. I was wasting tons of K and lived on Na before starting the B vitamins. Gilbert Ling does a great job explaining why.

I used to become hypoglycemic, anxious, etc with just Epsom salt baths. I no longer do and take them 3x/wk. I do have some magnoil to try. I’ll give the Mg bicarb a try.

Are you recommending brown rice because the husk retains more vitamins and minerals? Brown rice doesn’t sit well with my digestion. White rice keeps my BG from falling for longer than a white potato but not as long as bread.

I used to have high BUN; creatine kinase and myoglobin are what have were used to diagnose the recurring rhabdo. Thankfully that’s not happening anymore and I’m putting on muscle so a lot of my labs are normalizing.

I know my liver needs some help, specifically glucuronidation, because of high normal bilirubin, tendency to carotenosis, issues with merabolizing meds in the past (even supplements), etc. The increased carbs seem to be helping - more glucuronic acid.

Forcing ketosis and brain fog sounds like a plausible theory. My journey into trying keto and carni always ends horribly. I produce a lot of ketones really quickly and dump a lot through urine. Other than keep carb intake up and making sure I’m getting enough thyroid and B vitamins, I’m still trying to figure out what to do. Thankfully most days my brain is clear after supplementing and eating this way. Except for the late afternoon slump or if I don’t get enough sleep.

My good carb source seems to be bread lol

Do you dilute tyronene? Do you take tyromix too?

 

[Recoen]

@Energizer, @yerrag, or anyone else.

I’ve been reading through the tocovit and kuinone threads. And they say to take them at least 6h away from each other. What is the reason for this? And if that’s the case what’s the difference between the vit K and E used in estroban that they can be taken together?

For general maintenance dosing, it looks like 4 drops of kuinone per week. Any thoughts on how much tocovit - specifically when taking 6 drops/d of progest-e?

 

[yerrag]

Gilbert Ling does a great job explaining why.

It's interesting. Can you share his explanation?

I used to become hypoglycemic, anxious, etc with just Epsom salt baths. I no longer do and take them 3x/wk. I do have some magnoil to try. I’ll give the Mg bicarb a try.

Go slowly on the magnesium if that's happening, and then slowly build up your intake. The nice thing about magbicarb is that you can spread your intake throughout the day as it's like drinking water. You don't want to take too much at one time as that can easily lead to a diarrhea episode. The magnesium may be increasing your metabolism and with that the absorption of sugar by tissues increases, and your lack of glycogen stores isn't able to respond with increasing blood sugar, and then you end up hypoglycemic.

Are you recommending brown rice because the husk retains more vitamins and minerals? Brown rice doesn’t sit well with my digestion. White rice keeps my BG from falling for longer than a white potato but not as long as bread.

No, although that is a plus. Brown rice takes longer to digest, unlike white rice. With white rice, it's like a flash flood. With brown, it's a slow river current. So brown rice can get digested and assimilated as sugar in 1 hour or less, whereas with brown rice it takes say 3 hours.

Some people don't take well to brown rice initially. If you try easing in to brown from white with slowly increasing ratio of brown rice, you may find a ratio that works for you.

I used to have high BUN; creatine kinase and myoglobin are what have were used to diagnose the recurring rhabdo. Thankfully that’s not happening anymore and I’m putting on muscle so a lot of my labs are normalizing.

That's good. What were you eating before when this was happening and what change did you make? Whatever you did, you're reducing cortisol and that's good. Being on cortisol isn't good. Cortisol makes your thymus smaller, and you'll lower your immunity when you have less T-cells from a less functional thymus gland.

I know my liver needs some help, specifically glucuronidation, because of high normal bilirubin, tendency to carotenosis, issues with merabolizing meds in the past (even supplements), etc. The increased carbs seem to be helping - more glucuronic acid.

So that must be why you're taking collagen, which is helpful. The increased carbs definitely will help. What is your SGOT and SGPT?

Forcing ketosis and brain fog sounds like a plausible theory. My journey into trying keto and carni always ends horribly. I produce a lot of ketones really quickly and dump a lot through urine. Other than keep carb intake up and making sure I’m getting enough thyroid and B vitamins, I’m still trying to figure out what to do. Thankfully most days my brain is clear after supplementing and eating this way. Except for the late afternoon slump or if I don’t get enough sleep.

Your sugar metabolism is very poor, and we need to fix it. Currently, you seem to be relying a lot on fatty oxidation to supply your energy needs. But you're addressing it and you're finding ways to increase your carb consumption.

.

 

[yerrag]

My good carb source seems to be bread lol

If you're taking well to it, that's good. Your gut at least would let you know if you have issues with it. Maybe it's because wheat has more protein in it and it somehow slows down the digestion.

Do you dilute tyronene? Do you take tyromix too?

I just take one drop of tyronene, but only to perk me up from a doldrum during the day. That was when I had hypoglycemia recently, and I found out from my 5 hr OGTT that while I had enough blood sugar after my blood sugar dipped to a low and then recovered. I had to know why I'm still feeling low energy despite the normal blood sugar. I figure during the dip to low blood sugar, my liver may have lost the ability to convert T4 to T3. and when that occurred, even when my blood sugar was restored, I was already on a deficit with T3. So I took a sublingual drop of it, and my energy was restored.

I have tyromix, but it's not suitable for me at my state. I'm well stocked with T4, so adding T4 risks the T4 becoming rT3.

 

[Recoen]

interesting. Can you share his explanation?

See my post from yesterday on this thread
High Potassium Helps To Increase Muscle Mass Compared To Low Potassium Diet In Mice

 

[Recoen]

@yerrag do you become hypo at night because you’re only taking T3? Do you wake up and take more?

I do agree my body is trying to use FAO but I’m not efficient with doing so if you look at my OAT also dumping ketones in urine and the lows I get when trying keto and carnivore.

I’m also taking the collagen for the glycine, low tryptophan, etc.

More salt seems to be the fix for the fruit problem!

 

[Recoen]

@Lollipop2 because you’re taking progest e did you ever try pansterone (pregnenolone + dhea) instead of the cortinon? If so any thoughts on the pregnenolone combo?

 

[Lollipop2]

@Lollipop2 because you’re taking progest e did you ever try pansterone (pregnenolone + dhea) instead of the cortinon? If so any thoughts on the pregnenolone combo?

I use 2 drops of Pansterone on my face as a serum layer in days that I use Progest-e and Cortnon vaginally. I almost never use progesterone orally anymore.

I think honestly, it will come down to experimentation for your individual system. You are not dealing with change of life issues, so maybe Pansterone orally can work for you. I notice you are struggling with hypoglycemia. I personally feel this points to liver. I would jump start and heal my liver before I would begin hormones or thyroid. I made the mistake of starting both before taking care of my liver and they never did much for me at that time. I kept thinking: “why does everyone like them?”

THEN...I healed my liver and started Progest-e and NDT - Tyromax and WoW - they worked wonderfully.

Experiment and your body will tell you.

 

[Recoen]

I use 2 drops of Pansterone on my face as a serum layer in days that I use Progest-e and Cortnon vaginally. I almost never use progesterone orally anymore.

I think honestly, it will come down to experimentation for your individual system. You are not dealing with change of life issues, so maybe Pansterone orally can work for you. I notice you are struggling with hypoglycemia. I personally feel this points to liver. I would jump start and heal my liver before I would begin hormones or thyroid. I made the mistake of starting both before taking care of my liver and they never did much for me at that time. I kept thinking: “why does everyone like them?”

THEN...I healed my liver and started Progest-e and NDT - Tyromax and WoW - they worked wonderfully.

Experiment and your body will tell you.

Thank you for this, I completely agree. My first priority is to get my glucose metabolism, also, glycogen storage and metabolism working correctly. It takes me so long to add in new supplements anyways because I have to go low and build very slow. I think that has to do with my liver function as well because I seem to have a hard time metabolizing supplements and medications (not that I take meds anymore).

These are all “for the future” questions :).

 

[yerrag]

See my post from yesterday on this thread
High Potassium Helps To Increase Muscle Mass Compared To Low Potassium Diet In Mice

Sorry, it's going over my head.

So, I can see that unhydrated sodium is smaller than unhydrated calcium, but unhydrated potassium is larger than unhydrated calcium. While hydrated potassium and hydrated sodium are both smaller than hydrated calcium.

What is the implication of this? Does this have to do with the associated induction hypothesis of Gilbert Ling? I'm afraid I never understood what that's all about. It's beyond my pay grade for some reason.

 

[yerrag]

@yerrag do you become hypo at night because you’re only taking T3? Do you wake up and take more?

Not that I noticed, but I wasn't paying attention to it. And I rarely take the tyronene though, and when I take it, it's only 1 drop. Just to put me on alive mode, which isn't very often (that I'm low on energy).

I’m also taking the collagen for the glycine, low tryptophan, etc.

You need that for liver detox, as well as for endogenous glutathione production, which is on demand, when the body needs it.

More salt seems to be the fix for the fruit problem!

Glad it is working well. But once your body has stopped wasting potassium to the extent that salt intake allows, to the point of diminishing returns where no more potassium is kept from being wasted or excreted, then you'll still need to increase the body's ability to hold on to the potassium, which is dependent on how ample your body's magnesium stores are. Therapeutic magnesium inbtake may be needed, but as I said, slowly increase the dosage to therapeutic levels, so your body can adjust to the increased sugar absorption by your tissues.

I do agree my body is trying to use FAO but I’m not efficient with doing so if you look at my OAT also dumping ketones in urine and the lows I get when trying keto and carnivore.

Sorry, what is OAT?

 

[tara]

However, when I drop bread I am unable to keep my blood sugar up.

I tried cutting starches right down for a while in favour of sweet foods.
But I seem to get more stable energy (and feel more satisfied, if I eat some starchy foods as well as sweet ones.
Eating some root veges - potatoes, sweet potatoes, parnips, taro, etc seems to suit me. Occasional pumpkin is nice, too. And a little rice. Lentils are amongst the best for me for sustaining energy, so I eat them sometimes too, even though there may be downsides to eating a lot of them.

I limit the amount of carrots, pumpkin and sweet potatoes. My skin is less orange than it was. I think B12 may be needed for conversion of betacarotenes to useful form.

There's an easy recipe for delicious slow leavening bread in the recipes section, and maybe sourdough, if wheaty bread works OK for you.

macros are P 90 C 215 F 65

Could it also be that your low blood sugar episodes are a result of either simple undereating, or going too long between meals? Looks like only ~1800 cals, which is pretty low for an adult.

Good pick up on the yogurt. It’s the Trader Joe’s brand Greek honey yogurt. I am trying to get dairy/ Ca in. I’ll try adding more gruyere cheese instead. Milk and I have had a bad relationship since forever. I can handle some in coffee and hot chocolate. Straight and I start throwing up - definitely psychological at this point :/.

Dairy and I don't get on well ATM. I'm supplementing powdered calcium. Pretty tasteless and easy to add to food you prepare, eg bread (if fine ground).

 

[Recoen]

I tried cutting starches right down for a while in favour of sweet foods.
But I seem to get more stable energy (and feel more satisfied, if I eat some starchy foods as well as sweet ones.
Eating some root veges - potatoes, sweet potatoes, parnips, taro, etc seems to suit me. Occasional pumpkin is nice, too. And a little rice. Lentils are amongst the best for me for sustaining energy, so I eat them sometimes too, even though there may be downsides to eating a lot of them.

I limit the amount of carrots, pumpkin and sweet potatoes. My skin is less orange than it was. I think B12 may be needed for conversion of betacarotenes to useful form.

There's an easy recipe for delicious slow leavening bread in the recipes section, and maybe sourdough, if wheaty bread works OK for you.


Could it also be that your low blood sugar episodes are a result of either simple undereating, or going too long between meals? Looks like only ~1800 cals, which is pretty low for an adult.

Dairy and I don't get on well ATM. I'm supplementing powdered calcium. Pretty tasteless and easy to add to food you prepare, eg bread (if fine ground).

Hi Tara that is definitely possible. I just added a small decaf dark roast with sugar and heavy cream that adds another F27, P2, and C21 which brings me into the 2000s. May I ask what you shoot for macros wise?

Thank you for the recipe suggestion! The flour just arrived so I’ll give it a try :).

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Honestly in case of low blood sugar the best way is to remember Randle cycle. Eat more fat, that’ll keep blood sugar up. Complex carbohydrates are massively overrated