Hypochlorhydria Vs Hyperchlorhydria (stomach Acid)

[Nick21]

The next step on this long, unforgiving, and luckless path leads me to the topic of stomach acid, and whether some of my symptoms (IBS-D, headaches, fatigue, malaise, psoriasis, bad breath) can be ameliorated. I do not have gerd, or any indigestion, or heart burn, but there is bad breath and armpit odour. My initial instinct was that I had hyper, as I do not do well with orange juice, apple juice, or pop. However, the topic is counterintuitive in certain ways.

Could anyone relay their experience concerning the topic, and how they faired with betaine HCL?

 

[benaoao]

If you do not have obvious GERD symptoms (I don’t) I’d use digestive enzymes, some include a bit of betain HCl. Most definitely in case of a protein and/or fat rich meal; they both trigger the same symptoms you describe (bad breath, armpit odor).

It’s one of the only cases where I’d actually use a supplement instead of going too low fat and low protein.

 

[Dobbler]

Its a myth to have too much stomach acid. Too little on the other hand is probably most people. Reflux is usually just a symptom of bad digestion (too little bile and stomach acid). All your symptoms can be caused by too little stomach acid.

 

[SOMO]

Too much stomach acid would mean you're extremely EFFICIENT at digesting protein, but many with GERD/acid reflux/indigestion complain that fatty or heavy meals like steak can cause issues. If they had too much stomach acid, this clearly wouldn't be the case.


Making sure to take each meal with salt is important since stomach acid is composed of chloride.
I think you can accomplish the same thing as Betaine by taking some sauerkraut or pickle juice and/or vinegar with every meal. Stomach enzymes are secreted when the pH drops sufficiently, and drinking something acidic should encourage the stomach enzymes.

 

[Nick21]

If you do not have obvious GERD symptoms (I don’t) I’d use digestive enzymes, some include a bit of betain HCl. Most definitely in case of a protein and/or fat rich meal; they both trigger the same symptoms you describe (bad breath, armpit odor).

It’s one of the only cases where I’d actually use a supplement instead of going too low fat and low protein.

I have used various enzyme supplements but to no avail. Betaine HCL is the last for me to try. I too cannot understand how the low stomach acid could be a problem if gerd and its related symptoms are not prevalent. The only thing I found worked a tad for the bad breath and odour was black cumin seed, which I drank with hot water. However, I have a near instantaneous reaction to it like with say pop or orange juice, where it makes me somewhat dizzy.

 

[Nick21]

Too much stomach acid would mean you're extremely EFFICIENT at digesting protein, but many with GERD/acid reflux/indigestion complain that fatty or heavy meals like steak can cause issues. If they had too much stomach acid, this clearly wouldn't be the case.


Making sure to take each meal with salt is important since stomach acid is composed of chloride.
I think you can accomplish the same thing as Betaine by taking some sauerkraut or pickle juice and/or vinegar with every meal. Stomach enzymes are secreted when the pH drops sufficiently, and drinking something acidic should encourage the stomach enzymes.

My meals typically have considerable salt, and I am typically ok with steak as long as I do not have too much. I have none of the GERD and similar symptoms so I am wondering if this is yet another dead end. I will try the baking soda test and perhaps supplement with a bit of Betaine HCL and see what happens.

 

[SOMO]

I have used various enzyme supplements but to no avail. Betaine HCL is the last for me to try. I too cannot understand how the low stomach acid could be a problem if gerd and its related symptoms are not prevalent. The only thing I found worked a tad for the bad breath and odour was black cumin seed, which I drank with hot water. However, I have a near instantaneous reaction to it like with say pop or orange juice, where it makes me somewhat dizzy.

When I was coming off veganism and reintroducing meat into my diet, I always ate protein with ginger tea/juiced or blended ginger root. You can use it as a marinade or eat it with the protein meal, since it contains natural Proteases (enzymes that break protein down.

But have you considered that you may have SIBO and not stomach acid issues? If you tried the other stuff like enzymes and ginger or vinegar and it didn't help you, it could be SIBO.)
Increasing stomach acid may help SIBO, but only indirectly. A better course of action would be some natural antimicrobials (Wormwood/artemisin, oregano, aspirin, garlic, menthol and other antiseptic herbs.)

 

[Nick21]

When I was coming off veganism and reintroducing meat into my diet, I always ate protein with ginger tea/juiced or blended ginger root. You can use it as a marinade or eat it with the protein meal, since it contains natural Proteases (enzymes that break protein down.

But have you considered that you may have SIBO and not stomach acid issues? If you tried the other stuff like enzymes and ginger or vinegar and it didn't help you, it could be SIBO.)
Increasing stomach acid may help SIBO, but only indirectly. A better course of action would be some natural antimicrobials (Wormwood/artemisin, oregano, aspirin, garlic, menthol and other antiseptic herbs.)

My intial thoughts many years ago was that it is SIBO, however, none of the medications or supplements (wormwood, garlic, etc.) did anything, while drugs like wellbutrin seemed to remedy the ibs-d, but had a host of nasty side-effects and did not address many of the other symptoms. It makes me wonder if a SIBO-like issue is a biproduct, not the source. I was certain it was serotonin toxicity tied to my mao-a gene mutation, but that route did not yield success. My best guess is somehow histamine is related. Still, unfortunately, lost and tired.

 

[Ella]

If you are making plenty of stomach acid and bile then SIBO should not be an issue.

@SOMO, yes ginger is excellent as are all those Ayurveda spices and herbs which increase digestive fire, upregulating digestive enzymes exponentially.

You don't need to experience gerd to have low stomach HCL. Usually, there are very little telltale signs until some time down the track.

The grated carrot is excellent for gerd and gelatin broth optimises digestion and the repair of the gut lining.

 

[Ella]

Do you eat liver, oysters and other shellfish???

Do you include dairy in your diet? Calcium is required to maintain the tone of LES value.

 

[Nick21]

If you are making plenty of stomach acid and bile then SIBO should not be an issue.
You don't need to experience gerd to have low stomach HCL. Usually, there are very little telltale signs until some time down the track.

The grated carrot is excellent for gerd and gelatin broth optimises digestion and the repair of the gut lining.

I was hoping to read if betaine HCL had helped some forum users who had ibs-d and no gerd, but that has not occurred yet. The bulk of reviews on amazon tied to the product are linked to people with heartburn and constipation. I can also not explain why orange juice and pop, which are acidic, make me feel wose if the hypothesis is that I have low stomach acid. During my recent experiment with gelain and collagen, as a means to lower serotonin, I discovered I did not react well to them and that is likely a result of the histamine, or at least that is what I think. The histamine route seems to be the primary candidate given pepcid seems to form the stools more, and allegra gives me a little boost in energy, and nettle leaf seems to lower the headaches. But these are all marginal impacts and nothing close to a breakthrough. I hade hope ketotifen or cyproheptadine would be pivotal, but they were not, unless they take weeks to begin working.

 

[Nick21]

Do you eat liver, oysters and other shellfish???

Do you include dairy in your diet? Calcium is required to maintain the tone of LES value.

I was taking calcium with little breakthrough, and have consumed those items. Could you explain what you mean by 'the tone of LES value'?

 

[Ella]

Sorry, must learn not to skim read. I gave you the wrong info as GERD is not your issue. IBS-D is. As LES is not relevant in your case, I will not waste your time and bore you with the details.

It seems that you are focussing on bandaid solutions instead of addressing the underlying cause. Firstly, have you ruled out clostridium difficile????

The following article (you need to register) provides the workup for diagnoses.

Clostridium Difficile Colitis Workup: Approach Considerations, Stool Examination and Stool Assays, Endoscopy

C. diff. is associated with acid suppression meds such as PPIs and antibiotic use.
Proton pump inhibitors therapy and risk of Clostridium difficile infection: Systematic review and meta-analysis. - PubMed - NCBI

I don't think we need further studies to confirm this relationship as this has been known for some time. Some people are just slow catching on.

However, very few people are aware that the sugar trehalose, a common additive used in processed foods has also been link to c. diff. The most common foods it is added to are; ice-cream, mince beef and pasta. However its use is much more widespread when you read it's recommended use on the Cargill's website.

Trehalose supplier | Cargill Food Ingredients EMEA | Cargill

Frozen foods is what bought it to my attention when working on a new freeze-dried dog treat. This is probably not relevant to you but as consumers, we need to be wary of the implications that new technologies, processes, medications and ingredients have in affecting us in unknown ways.
A Possible Route for Foodborne Transmission of Clostridium difficile?

The dog treats were freeze-dried raw meat treats. Even the food authority was overlooking the implications of the clostridia spores.

Freeze-dried foods are being promoted as being fresh, organic and safe for human consumption. Think about freeze-dried supplements and powders. Whose checking???

C. diff. is dangerous and this infection has sky rocketed and yes the increase use of PPIs and antibiotics can be blamed, however this infection is seen in individuals who have never taken PPIs and have not abused antibiotics. More and more people are existing on processed and packaged foods. Have little to no cooking skills and developed these intractable gastrointestinal conditions. I have seen MRSA infection from a hip replacement completely eradicated because the lady grew and ate foods from her organic garden. She refused to take antibiotics and her drs were gobsmacked; could not work it out. Never seen MRSA disappear without any treatment. I don't wish to alarm you, only to seek the true underlying cause and proper treatment. Betaine-hcl is standard protocol for increasing the acidity of the stomach until you are able to address the true cause. Please do not think that just taking it will be the cure you are looking for. It will help enormously, to improve digestion and absorption of minerals like calcium and in many other ways. It is crucial calcium is fully absorbed otherwise C. diff is activated by the calcium increasing it virulence by over-producing its toxins and not necessarily by increasing populations. So this may be the connection why antiacids and PPIs and calcium supplementation + low stomach acid = C. diff infection. So don't take calcium unless you have strong stomach acid. The following article may explain why you don't do well with gelatin and collagen when C. diff. is at play.

C. difficile epidemic caused by food additive

From what I read, you are only guessing at the cause and taking stabs in the dark.

The acidity of the stomach is crucial in keeping the bowel free of these unwanted guests. Yes betaine-HCL is a prudent strategy, however if dealing with C. diff. you will need heavy duty guns like antibiotics, biologicals; herbal and essential oils and still difficult to eradicate. It sounds gross but fecal transplants are the most cutting edge protocol to date in dealing with this organism. The results are mind blowing. So what this tells us is that healthy gut microbes are crucial and we should be vigilant about placing dubious stuff into our guts. Pressure cooking meats and vegetables to increase their digestability and the HCL + pepsin will increase the digestion of protein as protein requires strong stomach acid.

The most revealing of all your symptoms besides the diarrohea is the psoriasis. Psoriasis is also linked to C. diff.

Have you been on psoriasis medication?

Psoriasis + meds + C. diff. share an intimate relationship.

Clostridium difficile toxin assay in psoriatic patients. - PubMed - NCBI

There is a obvious rise in the rate of GIT carriage of C. difficile to a variable degree in patients on methotrexate and mesalazine. However, no clear correlation of the gastrointestinal symptoms with either the presence of toxin or its titre could be established.

The following are the reported incidences of those taking psoriasis medications. What we don't know, is the unreported ones.

https://www.ehealthme.com/cs/psoriasis/clostridium-difficile/

You need to employ a targeted approach and identify the true cause of your condition. I hope my assumptions are wrong, however they need serious consideration if you are to heal. Look at what you can take out and the betaine-HCL will help but I would not use bile if you are dealing with c. diff.

Best,

 

[Nick21]

Thank you for the elaborate response. I do not think c. diff. is at play because I have taken s. boulardii, other anti-biotics, and the meds like viberzi, loperamide, and wellbutrin/paxil have helped the ibs-d. I also went through an extensive probiotic trial with no results. I will not continue the betaine trial as I had some pain yesterday, and overall I cannot understand the logic in my instance. I will go back to the histamine route, and try taking cyproheptadine for more than 1 week, take charcoal tablets perhaps three times a week, and perhaps schedule an appointment with a naturopath or immunologist (although the local ones are mainly asthma specialists). I noticed my IgG level (I have zero IgA) was just beyond the max, and it may have been overlooked. Maybe something is here, although at this stage I have zero hope.

 

[sunflower1]

Yes I use HCL. First of all though I did 2 months with nothing acidic and dropped out any foods that upset my gut so as to lower inflammation. I had gastritis and oj and vinegar make that much worse. I was diagnosed as having sibo and Hpylori. I also had high inflammatory markers in a stool test . I had alternate loose stools and constipation.
I'm now doing way better taking 2-3 HCL caps with each large meal but I also stopped peating as I read a lot of evidence that our bowels need fibre and doing a low fibre diet can make leaky gut worse.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to tolerate Thyroid meds at all or I would have tried that route first ....
3 months in I'm able to digest everything and my pulse rate came up and energy improved ..
The only thing I have left to sort out is insomnia around my cycle but think that is due to estrogen dom..
I'm also now able to eat citrus again but to be honest with you doubt I'll ever go back to drinking juice .
I've had friends try this too who've had diarrhea and they had good results but needed to go higher than me on HCL ..You might also find some reports on Hackstatis

 

[RatRancher]

https://collections.nlm.nih.gov/ext/dw/101320317/PDF/101320317.pdf

I found the above and think it is very relevant here.
Low stomach acid leads to many issues. Betaine hcl is the ONLY thing I have found
That helps my digestion,and all the down stream issues I get from just eating or drinking anything.
It may not be the best thing for us as some have said, but given the absolute misery I have without it for me its a no brainer.

As we age our ability to sterilize,digest and assimilate food decreases. The primary cause imho is that our stomach acid decreases as we age. SIBO, GERD are the result.

 

[Lewistx]

Yes I use HCL. First of all though I did 2 months with nothing acidic and dropped out any foods that upset my gut so as to lower inflammation. I had gastritis and oj and vinegar make that much worse. I was diagnosed as having sibo and Hpylori. I also had high inflammatory markers in a stool test . I had alternate loose stools and constipation.
I'm now doing way better taking 2-3 HCL caps with each large meal but I also stopped peating as I read a lot of evidence that our bowels need fibre and doing a low fibre diet can make leaky gut worse.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to tolerate Thyroid meds at all or I would have tried that route first ....
3 months in I'm able to digest everything and my pulse rate came up and energy improved ..
The only thing I have left to sort out is insomnia around my cycle but think that is due to estrogen dom..
I'm also now able to eat citrus again but to be honest with you doubt I'll ever go back to drinking juice .
I've had friends try this too who've had diarrhea and they had good results but needed to go higher than me on HCL ..You might also find some reports on Hackstatis

Hey im dealing with a positive hpylori test I don't know how to deal with it I'm on clarithromycin and metronidazole but no health improvements i used Tums generic form calcium carbonate last year wich caused this im a 28 yo male