Hyperventilating Makes Me Chilled To The Bone!

[PakPik]

Thanks @tara, such an encouraging woman you are!

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

I use a kind of papery tape - not sure what it's called. I use a piece about 2x3cm, down the middle. Occasionally it came off, but usually not. I didn't exactly put it on loose - I put it so it made the mouth stay closed unless I actively opened at the sides. If you don't like that, you could put the tape on one side of the mouth only. Or some people prefer a chinstrap. I was a bit unsure about whether I would tolerate it first time, but it's really easy to take it off again quickly if you need to, so the risk is low. For me, I quickly got to really like the feeling. If you find it makes you feel worse, I wouldn't persist with it for long - it might mean there are other factors to attend to first.

Thanks Tara! Sounds kind of like painters tape. I have that...may try.

Do you know how much was in it? Some capsules have more than 500mg, so even a quarter is not trivial. If you are tempted to try it again at some time in the future, you could try a smaller quantity (eg 50mg or less), and maybe further from your neck - eg feet? It tends to reduce lipolysis - so less fat available to burn for fuel, and therefore tends to increase sugar burning. So it can make sugar stores run down quicker.

It's 500 mg. Based on that I probably did have around 50mg, or maybe little more. I like the idea of rubbing it on my feet. Thanks again! 8D

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

Long post ahead :)

Hello Maureen, sorry you're going through roller coasters!

To be honest, up until a few weeks ago, ALL my days, hours and minutes for several years were literally biochemical craziness, from the neurological/nervous system symptoms, to circulatory, hormonal and digestive. Bed ridden most of the time. Very rough times. And the breathing roller coaster was really bad... When the body has gone too far in disorganization, for way too long, well...it is not a simple task to bring order and function back. I'd be lying if I said otherwise. So, I just wanted to suggest be gentle with yourself, take notes, learn concepts and how they are connected. Without such understanding, it is almost impossible to make sense of reactions, biochemical and metabolic states, therefore really hard to make decisions or judge how things are working, or how to plan ahead. That being said, it is best to go step and step and learn/apply things one at a time.

I also want to mention a couple of things:

-Cabbage is powerfully antithyroid due to goitrogens, unless very well cooked.

-Herbs are not necessarily inert or harmless, they can even be quite dangerous if wrongly combined with other substances, whether natural or synthetic. They can powerfully act on the nervous system as well, and many are estrogenic. Herbs may make it hard to gauge your real reactions to supplements and progress.

-Due to your background/symptoms, I would strongly suspect that your cells are fat burners and definitely sugar fermenters. The thing is, many, if not most of the Peaty supplements (for example niacinamide) act by placing restraint on fatty acids (directly or indirectly), so that fat isn't readily available to be burned as energy, to be peroxidized or to be turn into inflammatory mediators. But if the body is mainly in fat-burning mode, it can potentially get uncomfortable if its fatty acids are not available anymore. Now, I'm not sure that the amount of niacinamide absorbed through your skin was great, so I'm not sure it would be to blame for your discomfort. Probably wise, as always, to go slow with things.

-It is not a matter of "eliminating" the lactic acid per se, but the gist of the problem is to stop the high production of it in the first place. Transforming cells from sugar fermenters towards sugar oxidizers. You can't effectively lower lactic acid if you keep producing high amounts of it over and over. Dialing the diet/lifestyle in would be the first, fundamental step. And then lowering/blocking the mediators that shift the cell towards fermentation, and also adding back the things that shift the cell towards the oxidative metabolism (niacinamide is one of the more powerful out there since it provides a key mitochondrial molecule "NAD" that basically leads away from the lactic acid pathway). You'll come across many of these key mediators the more you read. There are also techniques that will directly increase CO2/lower lactate, such as bag breathing, small amounts of sodium bicarbonate, soda water, but these may be not tolerated by everyone, and in my experience, although very valuable, are short lived.

-Getting enough light, of the right kind and with enough frequency and intensity is perhaps the most fundamental thing there is that determines metabolism. If that's not adressed, the other pro metabolic techniques won't reach far out.

-Endotoxin is one of the fundamental metabolic killers, it poisons mitochondrial function and shifts you towards fat burning, sugar fermenting mode. It harms liver and circulation, harms everything it touches. Also, it crosses easily the Blood-Brain-Barrier as well, so it can turn nervous system to mush. A systemic endotoxin issue does harm, among other reasons, through its notable increase of free fatty acids, systemic Nitric Oxide, Serotonin, and Tumor Necrosis Factor -this last one induces insulin resistance-, and through its shutting down of thyroid function and protective steroids. So until your leaky/injured gut heals substantially, you need to pay close attention to endotoxin and address it.

-You can overdo gelatin, indeed. I did a couple of times in the past, got full blown excitotoxicity, but at first it felt everything was shutting down. There were explanations to that, and never overindulged in it again. Taking the right dosage is key!

-@Tara is right on pointing out the importance of an abundance of the alkaline minerals. Also keeping a good Ca:ph ratio, as Giraffe said. Meats, nuts and grains are very rich in Phosphate. If you'd like, you can post a cron-o-meter snapshot of what your typical diet looks like.

-Finally, you may be reacting to bad additives in supplements as well.

Just sharing some of what I've learned so far, I hope it doesn't overwhelm you at all, on the contrary, I just hope helps as general info :)


Not kidding, since a very young age I was DP, but how did I even realize it? Well, we have our way to know :) It kept increasing until it reached unbearable levels almost a decade ago.


I've visited a few forums, and there are many discouraged people out there... Illnesses can be real hard


I'm with you in that out of horrible experiences, blessings can -and for me most definitely have- come out. I can only said God both humbled and strengthened me through the rough times. Praise be to God.

Take care!!

Hello PikPak! Nice to hear from you again! I wish I could quote paragraphs individually, but I don't know how. 8 [

Thanks for sharing your wisdom and recommendations. You sure you're not a nutritional therapist?!? I'm thinking otherwise. 8D

So my cells are fat burners and sugar fermenters?? That's kind of surprising considering I've gained 60 pounds in the last 6 years. But then I lost 40 pounds just before that in 4 months sitting on the couch seriously overbreathing. I agree, my body is in a state of confusion being disorganized for toooo long! And I agree 100% that a lifetime of gut problems has led me to this bad place...and fixing it is key to success. I know I need to remove gluten, but somehow it seems to sneak in too often! I'm also having challenges following the diet as closely as I'd like to...I'm still learning what it is. I just started back to full time work 3 months ago, my first since losing my FT job 7 years ago. So planning, cooking, transporting...all a challenge. I want to write out menus, but haven't succeeded yet. If you know anywhere I can find some, please let me know! I loved the idea of the simple Peat diet...eggs, coffee, milk, oj, etc., but trying that is what ramped up my sensitive stomach. This is why I want to work with someone who can help focus me...I have DP. 8 [ I haven't even posted yet about my brain problems, which are in addition to DP, and coincided with my body breakdown the last 4 years. Yup, dealing with alot...like you said about yourself. It's kind of amazing where you've been and where you are now...very inspirational! Of course you have youth on your side. I wish so much I would have known all this many many years ago... but RP didn't probably even know then! lol I do usually avoid goitergenics, but my husband was itching for my cabbage soup. He's eating most of it. Can you tell me more about your excitotoxicity experiences? I know my brain is very sensitive to MSG, glutamate, etc., which is partly why I cook most of my own food from scratch. And now I know I have to focus on phosphorous and calcium. Will try posting a snapshot of Cronometer.

It is alot to take in...lots of great ideas! Reading it a second time it makes a little more sense...and offers lots of practical advise. I will be referring back to this post alot! Thanks...and God Bless you PakPik!

Amen! 8D

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

I believe there are circumstances when it can be dangerous. For some people it may be able trigger strong reactions. For seizure-prone people , a rapid increase in CO2 can trigger sometimes trigger seizures. For people whose system is extremely acid, hyperventilation may be there to protect, and counteracting it by bag-breathing can push pH down too far. I would only recommend it within comfort zone - stop as soon as it gets uncomfortable.


This really makes me wonder whether your system is still very acid - don't suppose you have some pH strips to test UpH (ideal averages 6.3-6.7).
How much calcium does cronometer say you are eating daily?
Have you mentioned overall calories and quantity of protein?

Hey, I got my pH strips! It appears that it is falling right within the parameters of normal, between 6.3 and 6.7. So what do you make of that Tara?

 

[tara]

Hey, I got my pH strips! It appears that it is falling right within the parameters of normal, between 6.3 and 6.7. So what do you make of that Tara?

I'd say measure a few more times at various times over a few days and get an average.
If the average is in range, I would guess that your hyperventilation may not be there to protect you from severe acidity, and so it may be safe for you to gently push the boundaries on reducing breathing one way or another. That's based on a bit of a mix up of ideas from RBTI and Buteyko.

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

I'd say measure a few more times at various times over a few days and get an average.
If the average is in range, I would guess that your hyperventilation may not be there to protect you from severe acidity, and so it may be safe for you to gently push the boundaries on reducing breathing one way or another. That's based on a bit of a mix up of ideas from RBTI and Buteyko.

Okay. I did have an OATS tests a year ago and was told I have pretty high lactic acid. I can try to get that number if it would help. Would that be the same thing as an acidic pH necessarily?

 

[PakPik]

Hello Maureen, thanks for making it through my post

So my cells are fat burners and sugar fermenters?? That's kind of surprising considering I've gained 60 pounds in the last 6 years. But then I lost 40 pounds just before that in 4 months sitting on the couch seriously overbreathing.

I think you can be a fat burner and either thin or overweight.

loved the idea of the simple Peat diet...eggs, coffee, milk, oj, etc., but trying that is what ramped up my sensitive stomach.

That "diet" is not suitable for everyone, for example I introduced milk almost 1 year into this, impossible before. You gotta eat what agrees with you anyways!

I want to write out menus, but haven't succeeded yet. If you know anywhere I can find some, please let me know!

I'm sorry, I don't know about a source. I think there are Peat friendly practitioners out there but I can't give a recommendation.

Of course you have youth on your side.

Well, I kind of wanted to not reveal my age range because I'd knew you'd say that. Does it even count? I mean I have broken apart faster than the elderly here, and waaaaaay more limited than them

Can you tell me more about your excitotoxicity experiences?

I may do that in the future, I don't want to add in more info. There are already so many things you can start addressing!

Hey, I got my pH strips! It appears that it is falling right within the parameters of normal, between 6.3 and 6.7. So what do you make of that Tara?

May I ask @tara about the reliability of pH strips? I wanted to buy some, looked for different brand but kept reading bad reviews on Amazon. Like they didn't show the correct pH when tried with different acidic/basic items! Can Tara recommend a good brand?

 

[PakPik]

Having high lactic acid is a problem by itself, regardless of absolute pH. Lactic acid that high has probably shifted your pH towards acidic anyways. That's when hyperventilation kicks in, to try and bring back some alkalinity back, as an adaptive response (unless you have some kind of CNS/lung problem that would contributing to the hyperventilation). If you haven't checked out the Acid Base interview, that's a good source to understand.

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

Thanks @tara, such an encouraging woman you are!

That goes double from me to you both!

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

I'd say measure a few more times at various times over a few days and get an average.
If the average is in range, I would guess that your hyperventilation may not be there to protect you from severe acidity, and so it may be safe for you to gently push the boundaries on reducing breathing one way or another. That's based on a bit of a mix up of ideas from RBTI and Buteyko.

I checked my pH 3 more times (in 24 hours) and it's been higher still, between 6.5 and 7.0. I'll do a few more checks tomorrow, but it appears good. I hate to say it, and I don't expect any (or much) advise on this, but I know I have something wrong with my gallbladder and/or liver and/or kidneys based on symptoms over the last 5 years. I sometimes get chills and odd pains (lots of digestive associated) and even a little ammonia smells. So I know something else may be at the bottom of my hyperventilation, but for reasons I'm not going to a doctor...some out of my control.
But I learned alot today rereading yours and @Giraffe posts about the Ca/Ph/Mg and diet. So now I have better focus on the diet. Just bought some oj and ice cream and milk and ricotta and cheddar cheese and figs, and laying off the cottage cheese and berries...and checking lots of other foods I've been eating. The few days I've checked on Cronometer the last couple months show as double phosphorus to calcium. Makes me wonder about my diet for some years now!

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

Having high lactic acid is a problem by itself, regardless of absolute pH. Lactic acid that high has probably shifted your pH towards acidic anyways. That's when hyperventilation kicks in, to try and bring back some alkalinity back, as an adaptive response (unless you have some kind of CNS/lung problem that would contributing to the hyperventilation). If you haven't checked out the Acid Base interview, that's a good source to understand.

Will definitely check out the Acid Base interview!

 

[charlie]

I hate to say it, and I don't expect any (or much) advise on this, but I know I have something wrong with my gallbladder and/or liver and/or kidneys based on symptoms over the last 5 years.

All things hypothyroid. I had gallstones pre-Peat, only a little bit of sludge on the last check. Cascara sagrada FTW.

...and even a little ammonia smells.

Ceylon Cinnamon clears out ammonia.

Too much protein at once?
Afternoon Exhaustion
^haidut on ceylon cinnnamon.

 

[PakPik]

Hi Maureen :)

I got a few RP quotes for you that speak by themselves on the inter-relationship of certain substances on creating excitotoxicity. These may help you clarify some things.

"Lactate, glutamate, ammonium, nitric oxide, quinolinate, estrogen, histamine, aminolevulinate, porphyrin, ultraviolet light, polyunsaturated fatty acids and endotoxin contribute to excitatory and excitotoxic processes, vasodilation, angioneogenesis, and fibrosis. "

"Niacinamide, one of the B vitamins, provides energy to this mitochondrial system. Under stress and strong excitation, cells waste niacinamide-NADH, but niacinamide itself has a sedative antiexcitatory effect, and some of its actions resemble a hormone. Estrogen tends to interfere with the formation of niacin from tryptophan. Tryptophan, rather than forming the sedative niacin (pyridine carboxylic acid), can be directed toward formation of the excitatory quinolinic acid (pyridine dicarboxylic acid) by polyunsaturated fatty acids. Excitation must be in balance with a cell's energetic resources, and niacinamide can play multiple protective roles, decreasing excitation, increasing energy production, and stabilizing repair systems. "
Rosacea, inflammation, and aging: The inefficiency of stress


"Ammonia is produced by stimulated nerves, and normally its elimination helps to eliminate and control the excitotoxic amino acids, glutamate and aspartate. The production of urea consumes aspartic acid, converting it to fumaric acid, but this requires carbon dioxide, produced by normal mitochondrial function. A deficiency of carbon dioxide would reduce the delivery of oxygen to the brain by constricting blood vessels and changing hemoglobin's affinity for oxygen (limiting carbon dioxide production), and the failure to consume aspartate (in urea synthesis) and glutamate (as alpha-ketoglutarate) and aspartate (as oxaloacetate) in the Krebs cycle, means that as energy becomes deficient, excitation tends to be promoted."
Epilepsy and Progesterone


“Ammonia, like estrogen, promotes the excitotoxic processes, activating the production of nitric oxide (NO), and stimulating the glutamate receptors, sometimes causing seizures, and if prolonged, causing stupor or coma. But it always activates the pituitary, and in other tissues, the production of free radicals causes molecular tissue damage. The stressors produced by estrogen, for example NO and growth hormone, activate the enzyme aromatase, which synthesizes estrogen, in just one of the many vicious circles. Growth hormone tends to increase ammonia levels.

Estrogen is just one of the intrinsic excitatory substances, which are produced by stress, and which participate in self-stimulating loops. Ammonia and nitric oxide are two of the most pervasive endogenous excitants and toxins. NO [nitric oxide] is emerging as an important endogenously-derived neurotoxin” (Dawson and Dawson, 1995).

Ammonia, like nitric oxide, inhibits respiration, and can increase the Crabtree effect (with aerobic glycolysis stimulated by increased glucose, inhibiting respiration)."

"Ammonia disturbs carbon dioxide’s regulation of brain circulation, and when ammonia is “detoxified” into glutamine (though glutamine is still toxic in excess) ATP is consumed, leading to dysregulation of vascular smooth muscle. Progesterone’s ability to stop the local excitation of nerve cells spares ATP. It seems likely that nitric oxide, the production of which is inhibited by progesterone, is also involved in the vasodilation and energy depletion.”
Ray Peat, PhD on Nitric Oxide – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

"The features of the stress metabolism include increases of stress hormones, lactate, ammonia, free fatty acids, and fat synthesis, and a decrease in carbon dioxide. "

"Cortisol helps to maintain blood sugar by increasing the conversion of protein to amino acids, and mobilizing free fatty acids from fat stores. The free fatty acids inhibit the use of glucose, so the stress metabolism relies largely on the consumption of amino acids. This increases the formation of ammonia, yet the combination of glycolysis and fat oxidation provides less carbon dioxide, which is needed for the conversion of ammonia to urea. Ammonia stimulates the formation of lactate, while carbon dioxide inhibits it."

Lactate vs. CO2 in wounds, sickness, and aging; the other approach to cancer

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

When I was making cheesecake, I often mixed in oyster-shell powder to bump up the calcium.

Great idea Tara! What about using egg-shell powder instead? I really dislike things from the ocean.

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

All things hypothyroid. I had gallstones pre-Peat, only a little bit of sludge on the last check. Cascara sagrada FTW.

Ceylon Cinnamon clears out ammonia.

Too much protein at once?
Afternoon Exhaustion
^haidut on ceylon cinnnamon.

Thank you Charlie for both these! I'm incorporating my homemade soda into my day, which is made of (in descending order) Gerolsteiner water, sugar, lemon and lime juice, cinnamon, ginger, nutmeg, vanilla extract, and almond extract. I hope it's Peaty enough!

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

Yah...I figured out how to use the quoting feature.

-Getting enough light, of the right kind and with enough frequency and intensity is perhaps the most fundamental thing there is that determines metabolism. If that's not addressed, the other pro metabolic techniques won't reach far out.

Very interesting! Thanks for this PakPik!

-Endotoxin is one of the fundamental metabolic killers, it poisons mitochondrial function and shifts you towards fat burning, sugar fermenting mode. It harms liver and circulation, harms everything it touches. Also, it crosses easily the Blood-Brain-Barrier as well, so it can turn nervous system to mush. A systemic endotoxin issue does harm, among other reasons, through its notable increase of free fatty acids, systemic Nitric Oxide, Serotonin, and Tumor Necrosis Factor -this last one induces insulin resistance-, and through its shutting down of thyroid function and protective steroids. So until your leaky/injured gut heals substantially, you need to pay close attention to endotoxin and address it.

Very interesting also! What exactly are endotoxins...serotonin, estrogen??? Wow...liver, circulation, BBB, nervous system...and a broken gut...ME!

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

Hi Maureen :)

I got a few RP quotes for you that speak by themselves on the inter-relationship of certain substances on creating excitotoxicity. These may help you clarify some things.

"Lactate, glutamate, ammonium, nitric oxide, quinolinate, estrogen, histamine, aminolevulinate, porphyrin, ultraviolet light, polyunsaturated fatty acids and endotoxin contribute to excitatory and excitotoxic processes, vasodilation, angioneogenesis, and fibrosis. "

"Niacinamide, one of the B vitamins, provides energy to this mitochondrial system. Under stress and strong excitation, cells waste niacinamide-NADH, but niacinamide itself has a sedative antiexcitatory effect, and some of its actions resemble a hormone. Estrogen tends to interfere with the formation of niacin from tryptophan. Tryptophan, rather than forming the sedative niacin (pyridine carboxylic acid), can be directed toward formation of the excitatory quinolinic acid (pyridine dicarboxylic acid) by polyunsaturated fatty acids. Excitation must be in balance with a cell's energetic resources, and niacinamide can play multiple protective roles, decreasing excitation, increasing energy production, and stabilizing repair systems. "
Rosacea, inflammation, and aging: The inefficiency of stress


"Ammonia is produced by stimulated nerves, and normally its elimination helps to eliminate and control the excitotoxic amino acids, glutamate and aspartate. The production of urea consumes aspartic acid, converting it to fumaric acid, but this requires carbon dioxide, produced by normal mitochondrial function. A deficiency of carbon dioxide would reduce the delivery of oxygen to the brain by constricting blood vessels and changing hemoglobin's affinity for oxygen (limiting carbon dioxide production), and the failure to consume aspartate (in urea synthesis) and glutamate (as alpha-ketoglutarate) and aspartate (as oxaloacetate) in the Krebs cycle, means that as energy becomes deficient, excitation tends to be promoted."
Epilepsy and Progesterone


“Ammonia, like estrogen, promotes the excitotoxic processes, activating the production of nitric oxide (NO), and stimulating the glutamate receptors, sometimes causing seizures, and if prolonged, causing stupor or coma. But it always activates the pituitary, and in other tissues, the production of free radicals causes molecular tissue damage. The stressors produced by estrogen, for example NO and growth hormone, activate the enzyme aromatase, which synthesizes estrogen, in just one of the many vicious circles. Growth hormone tends to increase ammonia levels.

Estrogen is just one of the intrinsic excitatory substances, which are produced by stress, and which participate in self-stimulating loops. Ammonia and nitric oxide are two of the most pervasive endogenous excitants and toxins. NO [nitric oxide] is emerging as an important endogenously-derived neurotoxin” (Dawson and Dawson, 1995).

Ammonia, like nitric oxide, inhibits respiration, and can increase the Crabtree effect (with aerobic glycolysis stimulated by increased glucose, inhibiting respiration)."

"Ammonia disturbs carbon dioxide’s regulation of brain circulation, and when ammonia is “detoxified” into glutamine (though glutamine is still toxic in excess) ATP is consumed, leading to dysregulation of vascular smooth muscle. Progesterone’s ability to stop the local excitation of nerve cells spares ATP. It seems likely that nitric oxide, the production of which is inhibited by progesterone, is also involved in the vasodilation and energy depletion.”
Ray Peat, PhD on Nitric Oxide – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

"The features of the stress metabolism include increases of stress hormones, lactate, ammonia, free fatty acids, and fat synthesis, and a decrease in carbon dioxide. "

"Cortisol helps to maintain blood sugar by increasing the conversion of protein to amino acids, and mobilizing free fatty acids from fat stores. The free fatty acids inhibit the use of glucose, so the stress metabolism relies largely on the consumption of amino acids. This increases the formation of ammonia, yet the combination of glycolysis and fat oxidation provides less carbon dioxide, which is needed for the conversion of ammonia to urea. Ammonia stimulates the formation of lactate, while carbon dioxide inhibits it."

Lactate vs. CO2 in wounds, sickness, and aging; the other approach to cancer

Wow...lots more to take in. Another big thank you PakPik! Let's me know I got serious work to do...a big undertaking when one's brain is not there for them. God I wish I had someone who could help take care of me. Is an RP General Hospital opening up any time anywhere soon??? Imagine the healing that could take place all over the land. Sigh.

 

[Blossom]

God I wish I had someone who could help take care of me. Is an RP General Hospital opening up any time anywhere soon??? Imagine the healing that could take place all over the land. Sigh.

I think this has actually been mentioned before Maureen so don't feel alone. It would be cool to have a retreat of some sort where a person could go and stay in a peaceful and beautiful setting and in a supportive and nurturing environment just to get some R&R and be around like minded people. We can dream right?

Seriously just rest as much as you can right now, try to stay warm, keep your nutrition up, maintain calm breathing as much as possible and most of all try not to get too stressed. Everything should start to fall into place.

 

[tara]

Great idea Tara! What about using egg-shell powder instead? I really dislike things from the ocean.

Yes I think Peat has said clean eggshells are likely less contaminated by heavy metals. etc than oystershell - I just use what I've been able to get so far.

 

[tara]

God I wish I had someone who could help take care of me.

I have days like that too.

Is an RP General Hospital opening up any time anywhere soon???

A hospital that effectively supported recovery from chronic ill health by focussing primarily on appropriate nutrition and the odd temporary supplements? In the US, I'd expect it to be shut down by the AMA pretty quick.