Hyperventilating Makes Me Chilled To The Bone!

[Mmmaurshmallows]

First...is this the proper category to place a breathing question in???

I have been overbreathing for about 15 years now...around the same time I began eliminating sugar and carbs. It seemed at first I often breathed out too much, especially under stress. Riding in a car was when it was most apparent. 7 years ago my hyperventilation syndrome really kicked in, so bad I was on STD for 6 months...and then lost my job cause I couldn't stay @ work cause it was so bad. I actually ended up losing 40 pounds in 4 months while literally just sitting on the couch because it was so bad. I'm definitely concerned after reading lots of posts on how important CO2 is for our health. I have theories on what is causing this, including one I just read about low glycogen stores in liver. I always sensed that my poor energy level was at the root of it. I've also been depersonalized for 20 years (it's persistent!), and I think this also plays a part. It's hard to explain, but my brain just isn't present...my sense of self.

One symptom that I've had since a little before my full blown HS began was 7 years ago was getting bone chilling cold. I think getting this question answered would be a valuable clue as to what is happening in my body, or at least what long-term problems hyperventilating is causing.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

A second question regarding HS (Hyperventilation Syndrome) that I have is regarding foods and supplements that really kick it into high gear. I was hoping maybe some of you science whizs could make sense of it all, recognize a pattern. I have my own theory too.

The pattern seems to be when I ingest things that calm the nervous system. These have been dandelion tea, papaya, l-ornithine, and others I can't remember now. I actually haven't taken any of these things for the calming effect, but for their other benefits. It seems like my body can't cope when my breathing slows, so when it does I start to get the feeling of air hunger. Then I have to work with my breathing...trying to regulate it and not hyper or hypo ventilate. Oh it's alot of fun!

If I can think of the other 'offenders' I'll add them. Thanks!

 

[PakPik]

Hey Maureen!

I've also been depersonalized for 20 years (it's persistent!), and I think this also plays a part. It's hard to explain, but my brain just isn't present...my sense of self.

I was depersonalized for more than 20 yrs. For the first time in my life it is leaving...wow... I just wanted to say, hang in there! Also hyperventilation coincided with my body going downhill fast, plus the crazy cold bones. I think we share many things already! Anyways, just wanted to share a quick quote that explains a lot:

“When carbon dioxide production is low, because of hypothyroidism, there will usually be some lactate entering the blood even at rest, because adrenalin and noradrenalin are produced in large amounts to compensate for hypothyroidism, and the adrenergic stimulation, besides mobilizing glucose from the glycogen stores, stimulates the production of lactate. The excess production of lactate displaces carbon dioxide from the blood, partly as a compensation for acidity. The increased impulse to breath (“ventilatory drive”) produced by adrenalin makes the problem worse, and lactate can promote the adrenergic response, in a vicious circle.” -Ray Peat, PhD
Source: Low CO2 in Hypothyroidism – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

So it would seem you're dealing with excess lactate due to low CO2. Thankfully there are many things one can do about that. :)
I also suggest you research l-theanine. It definitely helps with the excitoxicity which increases lactate so much.

All the best, and thank you again for your kind words.

 

[tara]

Hi Maureen,
Seems to me, as a non-expert, that all the different threads work together - for or against us - and some of them get into self-reinforcing spirals. One of the threads is that if the millieu of the body is too acidic, hyperventilation is one of the things it can do to temporarily raise the pH. But since lowering CO2 chronically tends to reduce oxidative metabolism and so CO2 production, and so increase lactic acid as PikPak says, it can be harder to get out of it. And then there is more demand for adrenaline, which increases hyperventilation, and on.

I found out about some of the problems of hyperventilation (esp. Buteyko via normalbreathing.com) before reading about Peat's ideas - and Peat's atttention to the importance o CO2 helped me take an interest in what else he had to say.

I made some inroads against chronic hidden hyperventilation - mostly taking the worse tops off it - but have not progressed very far with raising my general CO2 set point. What I have done made a difference. I think for me that eating more sugar and more calcium and magnesium were helpful for improving the breathing, in addition to consciously trying to retrain breathing habits.
The easiest low hanging fruit for me, that made a big difference, were:
- taping my mouth at night (just a little tape, not a full seal - could still talk breath and talk and eat around the edges if I had to, and with grease under it so it wouldn't rip the skin taking it off in the morning).
- once I looked for it, I noticed I was often breathing into my chest instead of diaphragm. It may be possible to change this habit consciously and deliberately, but for me I found it easy and surprisingly quick to activate the diaphragm by putting a belt around my chest for a bit - then I could forget about it and get on with whatever else I was doing.
- holding my breath briefly after coughing, sneezing, yawning, sighing, running off at the mouth, etc.
- keeping my mouth shut when exerting myself physically
- taking any spare moments - eg in the car - to consciously relax chest etc.

I've tried various other reduced/slowed exercises intermittently as well, and I think they are helpful and would make more difference if I did them more often, but just haven't so far got consistent about such practice (and maybe triggered some bad reactions by trying to do it too intensively a couple of times). As you may have read already, others here have taken this much further, and made major improvements.

If we can raise thyroid metabolism and supply all the nutrition and other needs, at the same time as retraining breathing, hopefully we can create more virtuous spirals for ourselves. :)

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

Hey Maureen!


I was depersonalized for more than 20 yrs. For the first time in my life it is leaving...wow... I just wanted to say, hang in there! Also hyperventilation coincided with my body going downhill fast, plus the crazy cold bones. I think we share many things already! Anyways, just wanted to share a quick quote that explains a lot:

“When carbon dioxide production is low, because of hypothyroidism, there will usually be some lactate entering the blood even at rest, because adrenalin and noradrenalin are produced in large amounts to compensate for hypothyroidism, and the adrenergic stimulation, besides mobilizing glucose from the glycogen stores, stimulates the production of lactate. The excess production of lactate displaces carbon dioxide from the blood, partly as a compensation for acidity. The increased impulse to breath (“ventilatory drive”) produced by adrenalin makes the problem worse, and lactate can promote the adrenergic response, in a vicious circle.” -Ray Peat, PhD
Source: Low CO2 in Hypothyroidism – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

So it would seem you're dealing with excess lactate due to low CO2. Thankfully there are many things one can do about that. :)
I also suggest you research l-theanine. It definitely helps with the excitoxicity which increases lactate so much.

All the best, and thank you again for your kind words.

20 years DP too? Are you kidding me PakPik?? That is unreal...pun intended! Lol! But you and I know it's not really very funny or fun at all...it can be near hell. And I couldn't visit those DP/DR forums as they always quickly gave me anxiety and depression! There is so much suffering and confusion and fear on them! Now I'll have to spend the time posting about the hope through RP. Maybe somebody will even actually listen! I just 'celebrated' my 20 year anniversary 11/1, but I was really hoping that I would have found the cure before that happened. So this is a momentous day for me...really it is. You have just answered so many questions, and thanks to Ray Peat's work I know I'm really truly on my way to healing! (Thanks God! ). How exciting that you're actually coming out of it! Sounds like this is something you've had your entire young life! Yes? How does one even know they are DP'd if it's always been present?? I would love to exchange stories sometime.

So hyperventilation has everything to do with DP, which has everything to do with hypothyroidism?!? Of course...like the different threads working together in the body...good or bad...like Tara stated. I was tested a few years ago (OATS test) and was told, with concern, I had high lactic acid. So it comes full circle.
"The increased impulse to breath...ventilatory drive"...so me!



When I think of the stupid doctor who wanted me to see a psych... Redemption is mine! :p

I just bought l-theanine and niacinamide but am slow to take due to my constant extreme reactions to even tiny amounts of things. B vitamins though have been (mostly) my saviors for the last 15 years, so I will keep trying those. I actually noticed 10 years ago...before this whole problem blew up in my face...that taking my B complex and rebounding regularly kept my breathing and mood in place. Too bad I stopped eating sugar...the final blow. Thanks Mercola et al!

Again PakPik...what can I say but thank you.
Seems like we're both here with purpose, huh?

 

[Hugh Johnson]

No mention of bag breating? Get a paper pag, preferably several. If you are hyperventilating, it's usually easier to bag breathe than slow it down.

You might look into an elevation mask too.

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

Hi Maureen,
Seems to me, as a non-expert, that all the different threads work together - for or against us - and some of them get into self-reinforcing spirals. One of the threads is that if the millieu of the body is too acidic, hyperventilation is one of the things it can do to temporarily raise the pH. But since lowering CO2 chronically tends to reduce oxidative metabolism and so CO2 production, and so increase lactic acid as PikPak says, it can be harder to get out of it. And then there is more demand for adrenaline, which increases hyperventilation, and on.

I found out about some of the problems of hyperventilation (esp. Buteyko via normalbreathing.com) before reading about Peat's ideas - and Peat's atttention to the importance o CO2 helped me take an interest in what else he had to say.

I made some inroads against chronic hidden hyperventilation - mostly taking the worse tops off it - but have not progressed very far with raising my general CO2 set point. What I have done made a difference. I think for me that eating more sugar and more calcium and magnesium were helpful for improving the breathing, in addition to consciously trying to retrain breathing habits.
The easiest low hanging fruit for me, that made a big difference, were:
- taping my mouth at night (just a little tape, not a full seal - could still talk breath and talk and eat around the edges if I had to, and with grease under it so it wouldn't rip the skin taking it off in the morning).
- once I looked for it, I noticed I was often breathing into my chest instead of diaphragm. It may be possible to change this habit consciously and deliberately, but for me I found it easy and surprisingly quick to activate the diaphragm by putting a belt around my chest for a bit - then I could forget about it and get on with whatever else I was doing.
- holding my breath briefly after coughing, sneezing, yawning, sighing, running off at the mouth, etc.
- keeping my mouth shut when exerting myself physically
- taking any spare moments - eg in the car - to consciously relax chest etc.

I've tried various other reduced/slowed exercises intermittently as well, and I think they are helpful and would make more difference if I did them more often, but just haven't so far got consistent about such practice (and maybe triggered some bad reactions by trying to do it too intensively a couple of times). As you may have read already, others here have taken this much further, and made major improvements.

If we can raise thyroid metabolism and supply all the nutrition and other needs, at the same time as retraining breathing, hopefully we can create more virtuous spirals for ourselves. :)

Thanks again Tara for your help and advice! I may try that mouth taping. I'm a little confused though. What kind of tape do you use that is strong enough to stay on your mouth all night, even with grease on it? I'm glad to know it's
actually on kind of loose. That whole idea just always freaked me out too much to try it.

I tried wrapping something around my chest, but that didn't go over so well with my body. It wants to breath, and breath hard! I think this is why I have such problems taking supplements that calm down my breathing. And now that I know it's something my body is doing for an important purpose (although beit unpleasant and even scary at times), it's quite a relief, especially since I know the cure. Yippee!

I've been trying to get back to my rebounding for a long time now, but I have forces greater than me that get in the way (stupid people in my life! ). That and a daily B complex helped keep me in check before my health all blew up.

In general I've learned it's best not to mess with my breathing. I also have long-term acid reflux which has caused me to not be able to take a cleansing breath alot of times. This is really what started my whole convalescense 7 years ago, when I lost control of my life. So obviously working on healing my gut is also priority 1.

As you may know I've added lots of sugar to my diet recently! I don't have a problem getting calcium. As a Wisconsin girl I've always eaten alot of quality cheeses. My new favorite breakfast is cheesecake made with cottage cheese (it measures up perfectly in Cronometer!) with pineapple. Num! I also made marshmallows and eat a couple 'pills' before bed. I dip them in sea salt. Best prescription ever. Lol! And I will continue my efforts to get more magnesium via baths and spray.

I've been meaning to do some RP reading on CO2 as I knew it was probably pretty pertinent to me, so will also do. Honestly I was avoiding it cause I didn't want to hear the inevitable...hyperventilating is basically killing me.

Yes to more virtuous spirals!

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

No mention of bag breating? Get a paper pag, preferably several. If you are hyperventilating, it's usually easier to bag breathe than slow it down.

You might look into an elevation mask too.

Thanks Hugh! I maaaaay try this. I hesitate due to my extreme over breathing problem, which includes not being able to get a cleansing breath often (unless I work at it). I believe this is due to silent acid reflux, but I wonder if this is also part of my 'ventilatory drive', problem. This was so bad 7 years ago I lost almost everything...my good job, my house, my daughter, 40 pounds in 4 months, my sanity, and nearly my life! I think I'm finally starting the journey back to my life, and I'm so greatful for everyone's help and support, especially Ray of course! I should say, on a positive note, I've also gained alot...strength, love, growth...lots of growth (GRRR!), and the ability to help others as an alternative nutritionist. Not all bad.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

A paper bag can't hurt you.

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

A paper bag can't hurt you.

I've read that people have died trying to use a paper bag...don't know the details. What is an elevation mask?

 

[tara]

A paper bag can't hurt you.

I believe there are circumstances when it can be dangerous. For some people it may be able trigger strong reactions. For seizure-prone people , a rapid increase in CO2 can trigger sometimes trigger seizures. For people whose system is extremely acid, hyperventilation may be there to protect, and counteracting it by bag-breathing can push pH down too far. I would only recommend it within comfort zone - stop as soon as it gets uncomfortable.

. It wants to breath, and breath hard!

This really makes me wonder whether your system is still very acid - don't suppose you have some pH strips to test UpH (ideal averages 6.3-6.7).
How much calcium does cronometer say you are eating daily?
Have you mentioned overall calories and quantity of protein?

 

[Giraffe]

I don't have a problem getting calcium. As a Wisconsin girl I've always eaten alot of quality cheeses. My new favorite breakfast is cheesecake made with cottage cheese (it measures up perfectly in Cronometer!) with pineapple.

Most cheeses have more calcium than phosphorus, but cottage cheese has more than twice as much phosphorus as calcium. You want your phosphorus-calcium ratio between 1:1 and 2:1.

Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Cheese, cottage, lowfat, 1% milkfat

 

[tara]

When I was making cheesecake, I often mixed in oyster-shell powder to bump up the calcium.

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

I believe there are circumstances when it can be dangerous. For some people it may be able trigger strong reactions. For seizure-prone people , a rapid increase in CO2 can trigger sometimes trigger seizures. For people whose system is extremely acid, hyperventilation may be there to protect, and counteracting it by bag-breathing can push pH down too far. I would only recommend it within comfort zone - stop as soon as it gets uncomfortable.


This really makes me wonder whether your system is still very acid - don't suppose you have some pH strips to test UpH (ideal averages 6.3-6.7).
How much calcium does cronometer say you are eating daily?
Have you mentioned overall calories and quantity of protein?

I do have pH strips, but the trick is I have to find them...and remember to find them...and use them! With 20 years of DP, and some brain damage I've caused myself the last 4 years doing alot of wrong 'healthy' things, all my attempts to get better can be quite a challenge. I don't have alot of support in my household either, adding to my challenges. But I'm making it a goal this week to find and use them...thank you.

I will look into the calcium numbers and calories/protein too and post those. I really wish I was disciplined enough to enter my food intake regularly...gotta work on that too. So calcium helps buffer the acid in the body, raising the pH? I still have alot to read and learn!

Thanks for watching out for me Tara! I really really appreciate it. And much thanks for the info on bag breathing...very good to know! So greatful for this forum!

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

Most cheeses have more calcium than phosphorus, but cottage cheese has more than twice as much phosphorus as calcium. You want your phosphorus-calcium ratio between 1:1 and 2:1.

Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Cheese, cottage, lowfat, 1% milkfat

Thank you Giraffe! I didn't know what the calcium to phosphorus ratio I was aiming for was. Doing my homework now...reading the article. :)

 

[Hugh Johnson]

I believe there are circumstances when it can be dangerous. For some people it may be able trigger strong reactions. For seizure-prone people , a rapid increase in CO2 can trigger sometimes trigger seizures. For people whose system is extremely acid, hyperventilation may be there to protect, and counteracting it by bag-breathing can push pH down too far. I would only recommend it within comfort zone - stop as soon as it gets uncomfortable.

I stand corrected. good point

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

For the record, I will NOT be taking anymore niacinamide for possibly a loooong time! Last night I took my first dose. It was less than a quarter of a pill, which I poured into my palm, moistened, and rubbed on my neck. An hour or so later I was feeling very uncomfortable. It messed with my breathing more than anything I have taken. Turns out...similar to other supplements that cause me to really hyperventilate as I posted above...this one was apparently THE most calming to the CNS. Freaked me the he!! out! I was afraid to fall asleep cause each time I did I quickly awoke with a very uncomfortable feeling of being short of breath/hyperventilating. Thank God I slept through the night after falling asleep around midnight!

But now it's morning and it's still kind of uncomfortable. I believe once I get up and get into my day it will fix itself, as my breathing eventually does after supplements mess it up. On a good note... unusually successful visit to the bathroom this morning...so I did experience some benefits, plus whatever else it did for my CNS and brain.

Tara, I am working on getting those pH strips. I believe they are at our storage unit, which we can't get to til possibly Thursday due to schedules. Also working on checking ca ph ratio, and protein and calories. Guess I'm holding off on eating cottage cheese for now, which I had for breakfast yesterday. Such a shame, cottage cheese and Harvard beets is one of my breakfasts I like to rotate once a week or so. I haven't had the cheesecake in like a week. Speaking of food, can I tell you what I had for a late dinner last night? It was a bit unusual...maybe somewhat caused my extreme reaction? All homemade...

Cabbage, potato, sausage, chicken broth soup with added GL gelatin, rice flour, and pot herbs.
Pistachio pudding made with 1% milk, 2 farm egg yolks, GL gelatin, sugar, almonds and pistachios, almond and vanilla extract. (I know...nuts! They are an occ treat)
2 homemade marshmallows and a small handful Ghiradelli choc chips.

Come to think of it, I can think of a few things that may have contributed...the gelatin (I had 3 sources!), herbs, and almond extract can all act powerfully on me...
I also took a children's Benadryl.
I think I may have overdid it

I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on this. Also, is there a good article that you can easily reference on CO2 and lactic acid...especially removing it from the body?

Thank you

 

[tara]

What kind of tape do you use that is strong enough to stay on your mouth all night, even with grease on it?

I use a kind of papery tape - not sure what it's called. I use a piece about 2x3cm, down the middle. Occasionally it came off, but usually not. I didn't exactly put it on loose - I put it so it made the mouth stay closed unless I actively opened at the sides. If you don't like that, you could put the tape on one side of the mouth only. Or some people prefer a chinstrap. I was a bit unsure about whether I would tolerate it first time, but it's really easy to take it off again quickly if you need to, so the risk is low. For me, I quickly got to really like the feeling. If you find it makes you feel worse, I wouldn't persist with it for long - it might mean there are other factors to attend to first.

I will look into the calcium numbers and calories/protein too and post those. I really wish I was disciplined enough to enter my food intake regularly...gotta work on that too.

I don't do it often either, but I think it might be worth doing every once in a while on a typical day, or an average across a few days, so see if we are in theball park wrt all the main nutrients.

For the record, I will NOT be taking anymore niacinamide for possibly a loooong time! Last night I took my first dose. It was less than a quarter of a pill, which I poured into my palm, moistened, and rubbed on my neck.

Do you know how much was in it? Some capsules have more than 500mg, so even a quarter is not trivial. If you are tempted to try it again at some time in the future, you could try a smaller quantity (eg 50mg or less), and maybe further from your neck - eg feet? It tends to reduce lipolysis - so less fat available to burn for fuel, and therefore tends to increase sugar burning. So it can make sugar stores run down quicker.

 

[PakPik]

Long post ahead :)

Hello Maureen, sorry you're going through roller coasters!

To be honest, up until a few weeks ago, ALL my days, hours and minutes for several years were literally biochemical craziness, from the neurological/nervous system symptoms, to circulatory, hormonal and digestive. Bed ridden most of the time. Very rough times. And the breathing roller coaster was really bad... When the body has gone too far in disorganization, for way too long, well...it is not a simple task to bring order and function back. I'd be lying if I said otherwise. So, I just wanted to suggest be gentle with yourself, take notes, learn concepts and how they are connected. Without such understanding, it is almost impossible to make sense of reactions, biochemical and metabolic states, therefore really hard to make decisions or judge how things are working, or how to plan ahead. That being said, it is best to go step and step and learn/apply things one at a time.

I also want to mention a couple of things:

-Cabbage is powerfully antithyroid due to goitrogens, unless very well cooked.

-Herbs are not necessarily inert or harmless, they can even be quite dangerous if wrongly combined with other substances, whether natural or synthetic. They can powerfully act on the nervous system as well, and many are estrogenic. Herbs may make it hard to gauge your real reactions to supplements and progress.

-Due to your background/symptoms, I would strongly suspect that your cells are fat burners and definitely sugar fermenters. The thing is, many, if not most of the Peaty supplements (for example niacinamide) act by placing restraint on fatty acids (directly or indirectly), so that fat isn't readily available to be burned as energy, to be peroxidized or to be turn into inflammatory mediators. But if the body is mainly in fat-burning mode, it can potentially get uncomfortable if its fatty acids are not available anymore. Now, I'm not sure that the amount of niacinamide absorbed through your skin was great, so I'm not sure it would be to blame for your discomfort. Probably wise, as always, to go slow with things.

-It is not a matter of "eliminating" the lactic acid per se, but the gist of the problem is to stop the high production of it in the first place. Transforming cells from sugar fermenters towards sugar oxidizers. You can't effectively lower lactic acid if you keep producing high amounts of it over and over. Dialing the diet/lifestyle in would be the first, fundamental step. And then lowering/blocking the mediators that shift the cell towards fermentation, and also adding back the things that shift the cell towards the oxidative metabolism (niacinamide is one of the more powerful out there since it provides a key mitochondrial molecule "NAD" that basically leads away from the lactic acid pathway). You'll come across many of these key mediators the more you read. There are also techniques that will directly increase CO2/lower lactate, such as bag breathing, small amounts of sodium bicarbonate, soda water, but these may be not tolerated by everyone, and in my experience, although very valuable, are short lived.

-Getting enough light, of the right kind and with enough frequency and intensity is perhaps the most fundamental thing there is that determines metabolism. If that's not adressed, the other pro metabolic techniques won't reach far out.

-Endotoxin is one of the fundamental metabolic killers, it poisons mitochondrial function and shifts you towards fat burning, sugar fermenting mode. It harms liver and circulation, harms everything it touches. Also, it crosses easily the Blood-Brain-Barrier as well, so it can turn nervous system to mush. A systemic endotoxin issue does harm, among other reasons, through its notable increase of free fatty acids, systemic Nitric Oxide, Serotonin, and Tumor Necrosis Factor -this last one induces insulin resistance-, and through its shutting down of thyroid function and protective steroids. So until your leaky/injured gut heals substantially, you need to pay close attention to endotoxin and address it.

-You can overdo gelatin, indeed. I did a couple of times in the past, got full blown excitotoxicity, but at first it felt everything was shutting down. There were explanations to that, and never overindulged in it again. Taking the right dosage is key!

-@Tara is right on pointing out the importance of an abundance of the alkaline minerals. Also keeping a good Ca:Ph ratio, as Giraffe said. Meats, nuts and grains are very rich in Phosphate. If you'd like, you can post a cron-o-meter snapshot of what your typical diet looks like.

-Finally, you may be reacting to bad additives in supplements as well.

Just sharing some of what I've learned so far, I hope it doesn't overwhelm you at all, on the contrary, I just hope helps as general info :)

20 years DP too? Are you kidding me PakPik?? That is unreal...pun intended! Lol!

Not kidding, since a very young age I was DP, but how did I even realize it? Well, we have our way to know :) It kept increasing until it reached unbearable levels almost a decade ago.

And I couldn't visit those DP/DR forums as they always quickly gave me anxiety and depression! There is so much suffering and confusion and fear on them!

I've visited a few forums, and there are many discouraged people out there... Illnesses can be real hard

I've also gained alot...strength, love, growth...lots of growth (GRRR!), and the ability to help others as an alternative nutritionist. Not all bad.

I'm with you in that out of horrible experiences, blessings can -and for me most definitely have- come out. I can only said God both humbled and strengthened me through the rough times. Praise be to God.

Take care!!

 

[tara]

I like your explanations, @PikPak.