Hyperammonemia!

[magnesiumania]

Yes that would be really helpful and i good task for me now that im home. I cant go to work. I will definitly do that. I just bought a new notebook as my last one was completed with page up and down on the Urea Cycle.......i have spent some time actually trying to figue out how to cover most minerals and nutrients but have been missing out on calsium. I eat blue cheese sometimes, not sure how i tolerate milk.

Making logs help me organize my thoughts also. Simple things like knowing what date we're on...

 

[Astolfo]

Ok, i resonate with your post and i agree on most points. Meaning that i find that it sense. Also i appreciate anyones help.

Ill try list some symptoms.

-Rapid changes i perception followed by confusions and disorientation. (happens only like 1-2 times a day)
-A feeling that i warp meaning i find myself suddenly another place without expecting it. (meaning that my brain did not plan to move that way and im taken by surprise)
-Also some involuntary relexive movements.
-Difficulty reading, especially on phone. (this was very bad yesterday i found it impossible at some point to read as much as 1 sentence)
-Cognitive difficulties (kinda situation dependent)
-Swelling, like my right leg feels enourmously big (usually dont last too long)
-Frustration (due to shortcomings, like trying to describe abnormal perceptual phenomena)
-Involuntary attempt at swallowing
-Disturbing visual interpretation, looks like reality is melting a bit.
-Motoric problems (has been going for a while and seem to be persistent)
-Feeling out of breath (not so strange when you actually dont breath)
-Lethargy (feeling very weak)
-Inside of my gums feel very assymetric
-Addictive behavious, drinking more coffee than i used to accompanied with increase use of tobacco (loss of control for bounderies)
-Memory problems, especially working memory.
-Neuropathy and intense buring (feels like ice and burning at the same time). I can make is stop by moving out of that position but i build up to repetition so i gotta keep moving.
Ill had 1 positive symptom: Intense pleasure, like harmonious communication between nerves. (however that is not part of any normal metabolic cycle so its still an indication of something abnormal)
-Loss of apetite
-Extreme sensitivity to cold, (yesterday i started shaking like hell outside)


To me its obvious that ALOT is going on but i dont not conclude with any established lable. Although i feel that i have SOME mental faculties intact and CAN point out certain info as clues to work with.

About delirium, im not sure its the right discription. And it was not in association with mushrooms but after i took Lysine rather.
-

I have all of these. Also It seems my problems worsen like a hell after I eat some protein.

Now, I really can't control my fingers. I literally lost my control on them. I can't function even on daily life because my cognitive problems.

But how can this be possible while my blood ammonia level is in the range? I know that brain tissue levels can be differ but that's too much.

 

[magnesiumania]

I have all of these. Also It seems my problems worsen like a hell after I eat some protein.

Now, I really can't control my fingers. I literally lost my control on them. I can't function even on daily life because my cognitive problems.

But how can this be possible while my blood ammonia level is in the range? I know that brain tissue levels can be differ but that's too much.

I can relate to the panick and fear that happens in situations like this. But i also figured out its may be an irrational loop trying to grasp it all conceptually. Its seems like you have to see a doctor ASAP but i cant give further advice...

 

[magnesiumania]

I also want to remind you that there may not be anything to worry about, just a very uncomfortable experience. Its always a potential for learning, so stay with it and stick close to nature. Nutrient rich foods and natural light.

 

[magnesiumania]

The foods you mention, if you are not also eating other foods too, look like they might be a bit short in some minerals - I'm wondering if there is enough calcium, potassium in there, for instance. Would you have the time and energy to log everything you eat in cronometer for a couple of days so you can see roughly what's in it? It's a rough way of seeing if there are big gaps in minerals or vitamins. Also can get an estimate of calories. If you are running short nutritionally, that can mess with brain energy. So can significant mineral imbalances. (not that I can diagnose them, but seeeing if there are obvious gaps can be useful to help find foods to fill them.)

So here is my food log:

I started my log at dinner the 28th, thats about 48 hours ago.

Dinner: Half a can of white beans (in tomato sauce), 2 eggs, 1 meat cake (of pork i think) +salt and pepper.

January 29th:

I usually start my day off with either Rice Bran or Diatomatious Earth, then an hour later i have breakfast.

Breakfast: 1 tsp Bee Pollen (part of my daily regimen for B6 and copper), coconut oil (reffined im afraid), and some raisins (should cover some minerals like phosphorous and boron).

Lunch: Salmon, potatoes (they were already boiled but i did fry them with the fish), sundried tamoatoes in olive oil (i have no idea if its Peat friendly or high in PUFA whatever)

About 1730 i had 1 laaarge raw carrot (adopted this trend from this forum although i dont make the salad very often), a glass of OJ with sea salt.

Dinner: Liver+potato salad. (I eat liver 2 times a week so im in my most nutrient dense part of the week, take that into consideration)

January 30th:

Breakfast: 2 raw carrots, red palm oil and bee pollen. Followed by coffee im sure, but forgot to make note of.

Lunch: The knekkebrød (im not sure you even have that outside Norway) with avocados (i eat them once a week cause i like them)

Snack: Today i had a snack cause i was hungry for it. It consisted of Blue Castello cheese on crackers and some potato chips with sour cream

Dinner exactly the same as yesterday, + lingonberry jam =)

I will add that i feel a little better by now and hopefully ill improve a little every day i stay away from random amino acids. (i do take Taurine every day and have done so for about half a year).

I may add that i take magnesium about 2-3 times a day and some potassium gluconate in my drinks 1-2 times aday.

 

[tara]

If you want, you can put approx quantities of those in cronometer or similar to estimate calories and other nutrients. One way to get a sense of overall quantities of food/calories and carbs for the day.

My initial impression is that there might be room for more fruit and veges for carbs and minerals, more carbs round breakfast, less protein last thing at night?
I like raisins too. Can tell if you are eating enough for a significant breakfast, or a tiny snack.

Refined coconut oil may work just as well for you as unrefined - many find so.

Unless you have a very specific reason for the diatomatious earth, I'd be cautious about prolonged use. My understanding is it's good for cutting parasites, because it's good for cutting - jagged edges can be hard on your gut lining too.

 

[Terma]

The single best thing in acute neurotoxicity is NAC, hands down, minimum 600mg/day, average 1800mg/day but I used over 3g in one severe episode. This is "best tool for the job". But you could be over the point where you need large doses.

B6/Mg/Taurine are critical in covering the effects of several excitotoxic metabolites including glutamate, ammonia and quinolinic acid. I simply temporarily superdosed all of them.

 

[magnesiumania]

Thank you Tara and Terma.

Ive taken DE since this summer and i always take time off. I do not have a specific reason for taking it, except i want to provide silica for growth and energy. Also im interested to chelate aluminium as it takes the place of magnesium. You may be right that i need more carbs, its funny how my body dont alert me of this, why dont i crave them? Yesterday night i had cinnamon in some local honey. My neighbour makes her own honey.

To Terma: I found an interesting article yesterday:

Lowering Glutamate & Protecting Against Glutamate Damage

About taurine she/he writes:

"However there are a couple of polymorphisms (particularly CBS and SOUX gene mutations) that can resault in negative effects from taurine supplementation becuase they resault in excess sulphur in the body. (taurine is sulphur based). These mutations also impair ammonia (comment: what does that actually mean? sounds good that its impaired but yet not so good....not sure how to interpret). "

"B6 and SAMe increases the activity of these gene mutations (again im not sure what that implies? That B6 operated in a pathway linked to this gene and that pathway is impaired if the gene is mutated??) and supplementation can compound the problem too"

Another thing i found was that B12 enhances GABA content but reduces glutamate content in the rat suprachiasmatic nucleus.

To let you all know where im at right now, im less convinced that i have permanently elevated ammonia and that excitotoxicity is my main problem at the moment. I think my body did not deal with glutamine supplementation and it initiated a cascade of adverse reaction also re-activating a psychological imprint from the mushroom episode. About that experience im not sure if ammonia was involved but could very well be.

Further, ill just stick to vegetables and a healthy diet....i walk everyday 3-4 hours. My brain probably have lost some neurons but at least i feel ive learned by now and i can hopefully restore full capacity. At least i have energy to walk really fast and long in the woods.

 

[magnesiumania]

I dont suppose i have those gene mutations as i dont notice any adverse reaction to taurine...or even MSM. Hwoever NAC is really not avilable where i live.

 

[Terma]

Don't put too much stock in those mutations, on another forum several of them were contested on the statistic/other level as being unlikely contributors to disease. It's much more likely that disease alters those methylation and transsulfuration pathways. Theoretically B6 could hurt if it drained homocysteine such that none is available for remethylation, but honestly, you try a 50mg of P5P and if after 2days it messes you up, you stop and it goes back to what it was. Anyway B6's role is potentially more important for protein processing than methylation, for example the kynurenine pathway toward NAD depends on it, although it's [possibly] more Mg that is crucial to mitigate the dangers of iron overload related to it (do not take B6 without lots of Mg, and don't just take Mg on faith, you have to notice its effects, otherwise you don't know it's actually being absorbed).

 

[magnesiumania]

Don't put too much stock in those mutations, on another forum several of them were contested on the statistic/other level as being unlikely contributors to disease. It's much more likely that disease alters those methylation and transsulfuration pathways. Theoretically B6 could hurt if it drained homocysteine such that none is available for remethylation, but honestly, you try a 50mg of P5P and if after 2days it messes you up, you stop and it goes back to what it was. Anyway B6's role is potentially more important for protein processing than methylation, for example the kynurenine pathway toward NAD depends on it, although it's probably more Mg that is crucial to mitigate the dangers of iron overload related to it (do not take B6 without lots of Mg, and don't just take Mg on faith, you have to notice its effects, otherwise you don't know it's actually being absorbed).

Yes, this makes sense. I cant afford any supplements at the moment so i stick to bee pollen as a source of B6....I used to love Mg but it stopped bieng absorbed after the amino acid experiements. Im not sure what you mean dont take magnesium on faith? You really gotta take it....its a fact that we need magnesium no matter how much is absorbed. B6 helps it across the cell membrane.

 

[Terma]

I mean don't just take a dose and assume it's doing something, half the time it's not or not reaching your brain and staying there in enough levels, it may get excreted very quickly. You're not in a regular situation. You have to feel a non-placebo effect on your brain, otherwise you might as well stop everything else because for all you know they may be draining Mg and making your situation worse. As for B6 I have no idea how much is in bee pollen.

-------------------------

Also: in case you're not aware, Lysine increases calcium absorption, and other effects not described here.

Nutritional yeast/brewer's yeast - assuming sufficient Mg - is not that terrible in a situation like this because it's very high in purines. They break down to uric acid which is an antioxidant, alternative to vit C. Anecdotally I know one or two people who improved with it. If it doesn't do that just stop. You'd get the same effect eating purine-rich sardines instead of salmon (if you're going to eat fatty fish, sardines are better, unless you have the ones contaminated with high dioxins and PCBs or cooked badly (they cook them in the cans)... they concentrate in fish fat... kinda getting off track but it's something you want to know).

 

[magnesiumania]

Hmm i really have no idea what you mean in yuor first sentence? Stop everything im doing? That makes ABSOLUTLY no sense at all. And i dont see a problem in taking magnesium and assume that some of it is being absorbed. Very confusing post.....

 

[Terma]

There is physically no diagnostic tool available that can tell you your brain magnesium levels. Therefore in a disorder where Mg levels may be critical (anything resembling the fight-or-flight response acutely or chronically, or poor thyroid), the fact of assuming you're getting enough Mg in your brain is nothing more than wishful thinking and an error you don't need to make. The only way you can know it's getting there is through its pharmacological effects on the brain, empirically. Mg is a blessing because unlike other things, in high dose it has pharmacological effects you can physically feel. I can't explain it any better. Good luck.

 

[magnesiumania]

Not at all sure what your point is. Ill just keep taking some magnesium everyday.

 

[magnesiumania]

To me its seems like slightly elevated ammonia is kinda common after reading for a while...I really have no idea whats going on biochemically at the moment but i feel OK after not eating amino acids for almost 2 weeks now....(except very low dose ornithine which seem to do absolutly nothing)

 

[magnesiumania]

Hmm so i found that Chris Masterjohn had a problem with the glutamine-glutamate ratio. He found that his urine pH was very low and his idea was that the kidney was converting glutamine to glutamate at a rapid rate to free up ammonia (to balance the acidity).

So his solution to this was to take bicarbonate until his urin pH went up.....

I feel like i have to do guess work and a lot of experimentation to balance my system, but this trick seem pretty safe. Does anyone find it makes sense to try taking bicarbonate and see what happens or is there any potential risks that make it less worth doing?

I understand that it will alkalize the stomach which is not good long term but it may help balance pH if thats where my problem lie...

 

[Kyle Bigman]

When i take even the slightest preg i get extremely anxious...it’s crazy how people take so much and feel calm.