Hyperammonemia!

magnesiumania

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So crazy as it sounds i think i excperienced hyperammonemia 1.5 year ago.
The story goes, i had psilocybin mushrooms which has always been part of my life since i was 20, now 30. And everything was OK (meaning a normal trip exerpience) Until BOOM suddenly i felt i was poisoned. Very seriously poisoned. I had no idea what was going on and i was in another world, some kind of psychotic state, just endless trauma.
What i really dont understand is that i actually forgot this experience as if my brain rewired and protected me form the painful memories. And stupid as i am 1/2 year later i had mushrooms again and the exact same thing happened. I was shocked and thought "oh no this again".
Ever since ive been neurologically and cognitivly impaired. I function OK but there seem to be a permanent damage on my CNS.
Ever since ive been searching for what happened and ive never really arrived at any satisfying conclusion until yesterday.
Im still a person who likes to experiment just to learn. And before christmas i decided to try some amino acids. Why not, they are pretty harmless, right? Well i changed my mind. I started experimenting with glutamine and glycine. The glutamine seemed to make me feel a ltitle better and finally actually relax for the first time in a while. I could watch an entire movie like in the past (yes i have some PTSD like effects still).
But one night i was going to bed and half my brain went numb. As if turned off. My auditory information processes was very disturbed and this lasted for a while. I immediatly stopped my supplementation and investigated further. To me its obvious that my NMDA receptors are malfunctioning. They may tolerate glycine from food sources idk but really i think im glycine toxic, which ill come to later.
This an idiot i tried another amino acid a few weeks later. This time i thought it cant possible hurt me in any way (another confirmation that fre form amino acids are dangerous in certain situations like mine)
This amino acid is called LYSINE and it made me feel good. Until....i was going to sleep, 2 days ago. I experienced delirium and the feeling of being poisoned again. Next day i found that lysine is a potent competitive inhibitor of an enzyme in UREA cycle. The one that allow conversion to Arginine i believe. And i started researching the Urea cycle an found that its purpose is make a toxic byproduct of amino acid metabolism called ammonia to a less toxic molecule called Urea, that can be excreted through the kidney>urine.
And a switch turned on in my brain. I really thing i found the answare to what happened to me on the mushrooms; Hyperammonemia. Any defect or inability occuring in the Urea cycle may lead to elevated ammonium levels in the blood and in my case the brain. This is the beginning of a cascade of toxic side effects, elevating excitatory activity, pulling water into the brain. Edema, Intracranial preasure and on it goes. Very neurotoxic.
I have an appointment with my doctor but first i wanna know if i need to contact help immediatly? I dont feel well and appointment with my doctor is not until friday. Is my potential for elevated ammonia/glutamate and brain damage a fact at this moment? I dont know what to do. Hopefully i can take a blood test to measure my ammonia levels.
Thank you so much to anyone who care to read or help.
 
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Are you saying that lysine brought out the same bad symptoms you had from taking mushrooms? How much lysine did you take?
 

tankasnowgod

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Zinc lowers ammonia. As wel as Some B-vitamins. Biotin and Thiamin I think.

True, all these substances have been discussed on the forum before, and they have been shown to lower ammonia. Also, the amino acid Ornithine can also help. It's usually the limiting factor in the Urea cycle.

If you suspect brain edema, you may also want to look into supplemental Urea. Edema, and specifically brain edema, is one of the conditions mentioned on the KMUD broadcast where Ray Peat was talking about theraputic uses of Urea.
 

magnesiumania

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Well i wouldent say the mushrooms brought on any symptoms. But it triggered the nitrogen imblance and elevated ammonia. So yes, Lysine brought about the exact same symptoms. Only that it lasted for a few seconds and not hours.

Thanks for the advice Vinero. I dont wanna take any zinc supplements as copper is essential for brain homeostasis and even small amounts of supplemental zinc contribute to a loss of copper. The copper basically go to Metallothionein intead of the intracellular antioxidant enzymes.

About b-vitamins i do have nutritional yeast available which is HIGH in thiamine but its also high in histamine and i dont think its a good idea if your in a vulnerable position to excitation of the brain. Im not sure if histmaine aggrevates and contriutes to glutamates toxic effect. Also in my case glycine can also be toxic (as it can form a ind with ammonia, or a compound/complex, not sure)
 

Vinero

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Have you got any other health problems by the way? I used to do mushrooms a lot a few years ago. Psilocybin seems to activate latent infections. If you carry any bacterial pathogens they will come out to play if you take psilocybin. Caffeine and niacinamide have this same property, although are less powerful than psilocybin. This could be a useful tool though. If you combine an antibiotic with the psilocybin/caffeine/niacinamide you can kill a lot of pathogens.
 

magnesiumania

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True, all these substances have been discussed on the forum before, and they have been shown to lower ammonia. Also, the amino acid Ornithine can also help. It's usually the limiting factor in the Urea cycle.

If you suspect brain edema, you may also want to look into supplemental Urea. Edema, and specifically brain edema, is one of the conditions mentioned on the KMUD broadcast where Ray Peat was talking about theraputic uses of Urea.

Thank you so much. You dont know how much i appreciate advice in this situation. As ive just begun to understand whats going on, after 1.5 years of gathering pieces. I have investigated every step of the UREA cycle carefully and i have been considering ornithine as an option. Not sure its actually available in a store here tho... And i really dont wanna play around with any free form amino acids without supervision from a doctor. Im also afraid of doctors so i spend all my time researching at the moment...to avoid damaging myself further.
 

Vinero

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Well i wouldent say the mushrooms brought on any symptoms. But it triggered the nitrogen imblance and elevated ammonia. So yes, Lysine brought about the exact same symptoms. Only that it lasted for a few seconds and not hours.

Thanks for the advice Vinero. I dont wanna take any zinc supplements as copper is essential for brain homeostasis and even small amounts of supplemental zinc contribute to a loss of copper. The copper basically go to Metallothionein intead of the intracellular antioxidant enzymes.

About b-vitamins i do have nutritional yeast available which is HIGH in thiamine but its also high in histamine and i dont think its a good idea if your in a vulnerable position to excitation of the brain. Im not sure if histmaine aggrevates and contriutes to glutamates toxic effect. Also in my case glycine can also be toxic (as it can form a ind with ammonia, or a compound/complex, not sure)
You also said you have malfunctioning NMDA receptors. Well besides magnesium, zinc is also an NMDA antagonist. As long as you get copper, zinc is useful I think.
 

tankasnowgod

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Another way to lower ammonia levels would be to eat low to no protein for a few days. Any amino acid or protein (with the likely exception of ornithine) will add ammonia just through normal function. Lowering protein intake for a few days could give your body time to catch up, and have levels normalize.
 

magnesiumania

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Have you got any other health problems by the way? I used to do mushrooms a lot a few years ago. Psilocybin seems to activate latent infections. If you carry any bacterial pathogens they will come out to play if you take psilocybin. Caffeine and niacinamide have this same property, although are less powerful than psilocybin. This could be a useful tool though. If you combine an antibiotic with the psilocybin/caffeine/niacinamide you can kill a lot of pathogens.

At the moment i have very low thyroid function and hmm increased cerebral blood flow. I feel a bit like an alien but its hard to explain. My metabolism dont seem to be TOO impaired so im hopeful that i will improve if i stay away from glycine, glutamic acid and too much protein (which contribute to more ammonia).
 

magnesiumania

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Another way to lower ammonia levels would be to eat low to no protein for a few days. Any amino acid or protein (with the likely exception of ornithine) will add ammonia just through normal function. Lowering protein intake for a few days could give your body time to catch up, and have levels normalize.

Im on it. I also consider taking ornithine but i really dont wanna do anything more stupid and want to be sure its safe for me.
 

kyle

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A dangerously high level of ammonia in the blood (hyperammonemia) can be produced by exhaustive exercise, but also by hyperbaric oxygen (or a high concentration of oxygen), by high estrogen, and by hypothyroidism. It tends to be associated with an excess of lactic acid, probably because ammonia stimulates glycolysis. Excess oxygen, like hypothyroidism, is equivalent to "hyperventilation," in producing an abnormally low level of carbon dioxide in the blood. The Krebs cycle, during stress, is limited by the unavailability of carbon dioxide. These factors result in the waste of glucose, turning it into lactic acid, rather than carbon dioxide and energy. In these ways, the metabolism of fatigued muscle (or any cell under stress) is similar to tumor metabolism.

Hyperammonemia disturbs excitatory processes, and can cause seizures, as well as stupor, and is probably involved in mania and depression. Lithium happens to complex electronically with ammonia, and I think that accounts for some of its therapeutic effects, but carbon dioxide is the main physiological factor in the elimination of ammonia, since it combines with it to form urea. The changes in cell water in the excited/fatigued state represent an increase in the water's "structural temperature," and that would imply that less carbon dioxide could remain dissolved during excitation.

Prostate Cancer

The kidneys adjust the osmolarity of the blood by allowing water and solutes to leave the bloodstream, in proportions that usually keep the body fluids in balance with cells. The kidneys are able to compensate for many of the imbalances produced by stress and inappropriate diets, for example by forming ammonia and carbon dioxide, to compensate for imbalances in the alkalis and acids that are being delivered to the blood by other organs...


The kidneys can produce large amounts of carbon dioxide and ammonia, in the process of preventing the loss of electrolytes, while allowing acid to be lost in the urine. The ammonia is produced by the breakdown of protein. During stress or fasting, the loss of tissue protein can be minimized by supplementing the minerals, potassium, sodium, magnesium, and calcium. Salt restriction can cause aldosterone to increase, and excess aldosterone causes potassium loss, and increases the use of protein to form ammonia (Norby, et al., 1976; Snart and Taylor, 1978; Welbourne and Francoeur, 1977).

Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging

Lithium forms a complex with the ammonia molecule, and since the ammonia molecule mimics the effects of serotonin, especially in fatigue, this could be involved in lithium’s antiserotonergic effects. Ammonia, like serotonin, impairs mitochondrial energy production (at a minimum, it uses energy in being converted to urea), so anti-ammonia, anti-serotonin agents make more energy available for adaptation. Lithium has been demonstrated to restore the energy metabolism of mitochondria (Gulidova, 1977).

Thyroid, insomnia, and the insanities: Commonalities in disease

@tankasnowgod @magnesiumania

I really don't get the rationale for restricting protein, or supplementing it.

For example:

A simple protein deficiency has many surprising effects. It lowers body temperature, and suppresses the thyroid, but it increases inflammation and the tendency of blood to clot. Since the brain and heart and lungs require a continuous supply of essential amino acids if they are to continue functioning, in the absence of dietary protein, cortisol must be produced continuously to mobilize amino acids from the expendable tissues, which are mainly the skeletal muscles. These muscles have a high concentration of tryptophan and cysteine, which suppress the thyroid. Cysteine is excitoxic, and tryptophan is the precursor for serotonin. Presumably, their presence in, and stress-induced release from, the muscles is one of the mechanisms that reduce metabolic activity during certain types of stress.

Multiple sclerosis, protein, fats, and progesterone

Seems restricting normal balanced food protein would aggravate problems.

Supplementing protein amino acids always seems to make problems as Peat has stated.

Lithium and antibiotics would be better interventions.
 

tankasnowgod

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@tankasnowgod @magnesiumania

I really don't get the rationale for restricting protein, or supplementing it.

I didn't say restrict protein, I said low to no protein for a few days. And I gave my rationale right along with it. Peat has stated many times that the body doesn't need necessary substances every day, or even every week. I guess for those days you are "restricting protein," but there is a huge gap between eating low to no protein for a day or couple of days, and going on a low protein diet for months or years on end, and the later is what is usually referred to when people say "restricting protein."

As for ornithine, it's been shown in both human and animal models to lower ammonia.
 

magnesiumania

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I didn't say restrict protein, I said low to no protein for a few days. And I gave my rationale right along with it. Peat has stated many times that the body doesn't need necessary substances every day, or even every week. I guess for those days you are "restricting protein," but there is a huge gap between eating low to no protein for a day or couple of days, and going on a low protein diet for months or years on end, and the later is what is usually referred to when people say "restricting protein."

As for ornithine, it's been shown in both human and animal models to lower ammonia.

Yes, exactly my own thoughts. You seem to have arrived at the same conclutions as me and seem to be able to make necessary decernments regarding my specific condition. Also most foods make my guts alittle uncomfortable the past days....I realize my story was pretty long so its hard to catch all the details and aply the impications of each to understand.
 

magnesiumania

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Exactly where the fine line between too much protein (producing too much ammonia) and not enough (rasaulting in a deficiency of the amino acids involved in the urea cycle) i dont know where is but im going to have a few potatoes now, hopefully balancing overall amino acid profile, which u suspect was desturbed from supplementation.
 

magnesiumania

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Also I think you might be on the right track @magnesiumania.

But with any issue, there's no substitute for a simple balanced diet.

Yes, my expereince with lysine was the last drop that lead me to the final realization. Now i feel im much better of with very important insights....
 

magnesiumania

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And about supporting the enzymes in the UC. I know ATP is involved for many (or all) steps to work. Do you think nutritional yeast for B2 and 3 is a good idea? Im a little cautious with histamine just because neurotoxicity is a part of this and histamine really is a stress chemical. I actually think histamine keep people awake at night, more so than cortisol.
 

kyle

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Muscle wasting from lack of protein can raise ammonia (acidosis) - where ammonia is actually trying to protect and keep you alive.

But yes, it is dangerous when the body can't restore normal function!

The body will liberate amino acids from muscle tissue so even if you don't eat proteins and not in an ideal way either:

The fatigue produced by “over-training” is probably produced by a tryptophan and serotonin overload, resulting from catabolism of muscle proteins and stress-induced increases in serotonin. Muscle catabolism also releases a large amount of cysteine, and cysteine, methionine, and tryptophan suppress thyroid function (Carvalho, et al., 2000).

As for ornithine, it's been shown in both human and animal models to lower ammonia.

I know people on the forums have promoted different amino acid supps - in my experience with them, they've all been negative.

Peat doesn't have anything positive WRT amino acid supps, correct me I'm wrong if he said something good about ornithine or something. I don't have much knowledge about it specifically.

Also in my case glycine can also be toxic (as it can form a ind with ammonia, or a compound/complex, not sure)

As for the edema issue, balanced protein from broth for example would be beneficial alongside sodium. Glycine/proline are safe for this. I know some people have supp'd isolated forms but I think powdered gelatin is better for the balanced quantities and Peat has also said isn't that harmful if you can't make broth.

I'd pick out the quotes but the entire article is pertinent here:

Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging
 

kyle

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And about supporting the enzymes in the UC. I know ATP is involved for many (or all) steps to work. Do you think nutritional yeast for B2 and 3 is a good idea? Im a little cautious with histamine just because neurotoxicity is a part of this and histamine really is a stress chemical. I actually think histamine keep people awake at night, more so than cortisol.

I've personally used the method where bring water to a boil then let the yeast steep for a 10 minutes or so - the theory being that water soluble vits will be mostly extracted leaving behind most of the proteins/estrogen and I do think it works. But I've also eaten the yeast (it's tasty) and didn't feel any negative effects but Peat has said to use that route sparingly but I do think it is a good way to get B vits.

Brewer's yeast has been used successfully to treat diabetes. In the l930s, my father had severe diabetes, but after a few weeks of living on brewer's yeast, he recovered and never had any further evidence of diabetes. Besides its high B-vitamin and protein content, yeast is an unusual food that should be sparingly used, because of its high phosphorous/calcium ratio, high potassium to sodium ratio, and high estrogen content. The insulin-producing beta cells of the pancreas have estrogen receptors, but I don't know of any new research investigating this aspect of yeast therapy. In rabbit studies, diabetes produced by alloxan poisoning, which kills the beta cells, was cured by DHEA treatment, and beta cells were found to have regenerated in the pancreatic islets.
Diabetes, scleroderma, oils and hormones
 
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