Hydrolyzed Whey Or Casein Protein Powders?

[BigChad]

The hydrolyzed whey protein powders seem to digest so fast that gut bacteria don't have the opportunity to feed off of them. Would it be worth getting an unflavored, grass fed, gmo free, soy free hydrolyzed whey protein powder and using it a few times a day as a protein source? The calcium/phosphate ratio is good. I was thinking fruit or other carb source could be taken alongside it. I haven't found any hydrolyzed casein powders but heard those are even better than whey for some reason.

 

[Gone Peating]

Would be curious about this as well

I use Naked mass gainer chocolate one scoop a day at lunch and really like it

 

[Spud]

Hydrolyzed Casein is the worst tasting protein you can consume.

 

[brix]

I use an unflavored hydrolyzed whey protein powder in my smoothie everyday and like it. Doesn’t hurt digestion at all and can’t tell the difference in taste if I add it or not.

 

[BigChad]

Apparently the hydrolyzed wheys absorb via a different mechanism than typical solid proteins.

I use an unflavored hydrolyzed whey protein powder in my smoothie everyday and like it. Doesn’t hurt digestion at all and can’t tell the difference in taste if I add it or not.

Which brand of unflavored hydrolyzed whey are you using? Is it muscle feast. Seems difficult to find

 

[TheBeard]

The hydrolyzed whey protein powders seem to digest so fast that gut bacteria don't have the opportunity to feed off of them. Would it be worth getting an unflavored, grass fed, gmo free, soy free hydrolyzed whey protein powder and using it a few times a day as a protein source? The calcium/phosphate ratio is good. I was thinking fruit or other carb source could be taken alongside it. I haven't found any hydrolyzed casein powders but heard those are even better than whey for some reason.

To get to hydro whey, you’ve stripped the milk to only the amino acids, so grass fed, gmo, anything free you want doesn’t really matter.
You already have a naked product, the rest is just them having fun with the label.

Why not whole milk as a whole food protein source rather than spiking your insulin with amino acids?

 

[BigChad]

To get to hydro whey, you’ve stripped the milk to only the amino acids, so grass fed, gmo, anything free you want doesn’t really matter.
You already have a naked product, the rest is just them having fun with the label.

Why not whole milk as a whole food protein source rather than spiking your insulin with amino acids?

that depends on the percentage of DH right? Most products on the market seem to be 2% DH, while protein crunchs proto whey product is 12.5% DH, Muscle Feasts product is 15% DH. DH meaning degree of hydrolysis.
In order to get to just bare amino acids that would be 100% DH from my understanding?

I do have whole milk but due to calories, estrogens in it and too much milkfat, I don't know if I should go above 12 oz of whole milk a day. That may also be too much lactose on a daily basis?

Supposedly hydrolyzed whey has unique benefits due to the presence of di, tri, quatra and pentapeptides only present in hydrolyzed whey?

Found this post regarding hydrolyzed whey on reddit:

"Okay, I think we need an education in protein digestion, absorption, and cost effectiveness here.

TLDR: Whey concentrates, isolates, and low-DH hydrolysates are both less effective and cost-efficient than high-DH whey hydrolysates.

Can we all agree that what we're after here is NOT the cost per pound of protein in the jar, but rather, the cost per pound of protein absorbed to be utilized by the body? After all, if you get 10LBs of protein for around $50 but only absorb 1/3 of it, you've wasted 2/3 of your 10LB, and thereby tripled your cost. Additionally, due to the fact that whey isolates, concentrates, and most hydrolysates are absorbed in the ileum as free-form amino acids, your liver will naturally deaminate these aminos once your blood level becomes saturated with them, and you can test for this by seeing if there is nitrogen in your urine, but I digress. Let's talk about just absorption here.

Let's break it down in simple terms:

$50 for 10LB: $5 per pound. If you absorb around 1/3: $5 for 1/3 pound, or $50 for 3.33LB or $150 for 10LB.

Where am I getting these numbers? That requires a little bit of explanation. Since we are talking about whey, there are various "grades" of whey protein, just as there are various "grades" of gasoline. The primary three are whey concentrate, whey isolate, and whey hydrolysate. Most of us know this but I am going to go through them anyway. The absorption rate varies greatly from person to person depending of factors such as: digestive health, age, stress levels, digestive efficiency, type of protein, whether or not it was a liquid or solid supplement that was consumed, time of consumption, whether or not there was food in the stomach already, and even more factors. So it is difficult to calculate exactly, but generally a rate of 30% is actually pretty gratuitous. The rate is even lower for plant-based proteins which are not affected by our primary digestive acids. Soy, for example, has a notoriously low absorption rate.

Whey Concentrate

Whey Concentrate has gone through filtration to produce a 'concentrate' of whey protein that is about 90% whey. The formulation still contains fat and lactose as that has not been filtered out. The molecular weight is around 18,000+ daltons or higher. Breakdown of these large molecules takes a long time, and as a result they are primarily absorbed by free-form amino transporters in the ileum. This is the final section of the small intestine before the waste is passed into the colon where it is consumed by bacteria and fermented giving you the gas and bloating associated with many products.

Whey Isolate

Whey Isolate has been either cross-filtered or cold-filtered to remove the vast majority of fat and lactose from the concentrate stage. This gives it a higher protein percentage of around 97%. The molecular size, however, remains unchanged. 18,000+ daltons. Though purer, this still suffers from the same absorption rate of concentrates.

Whey Hydrolysate

Whey Hydrolysate is either isolate or concentrate that has been enzymatically reduced (pre-digested, for lack of a better phrase) in size. The degree of this hydrolization varies from product to product. The higher the DH (degree of hydrolization), the smaller the peptides become. Smaller peptides are more easily absorbed by the body and are absorbed in a higher percentage. However, the vast majority of hydrolyzed products available are relatively low-DH. In order to significantly impact the absorption rate, we need peptides with an average molecular weight of ~ 1,000 daltons. This means primarily di, tri, quadra, pentapeptides are advantageous to the composition of our powders, and increases the absorption rate significantly.

Now, you might be inclined to Google some of my claims, which I encourage. However, much of the research does not distinguish HIGH-DH from LOW-DH in terms of hydrolysis. If you hydrolyze an isolate only ever so slightly you can technically call it "hydrolyzed" though you will not see benefits of hydrolization from these kinds of studies. Make sure you see an AVERAGE MOLECULAR WEIGHT of around 1,000 daltons in your studies if you Google, otherwise the results are skewed.

Now, let's talk about the benefits of a high-DH supplement. Aside from a vastly improved absorption rate (and therefore best cost-efficiency). A high-DH supplement containing di and tripeptides, quadrapeptides and pentapeptides will cost more than an isolate or concentrate. Sometimes up to 40-50% more. Is it worth it? It depends. If it is significantly hydrolyzed you can bet it is worth it.

To look at the advantages of significantly high-DH supplements, let's take a look at something called a PEPT-1 transporter. This is a protein transporter (something that transports peptides from the intestine through the cell wall, into the bloodstream) that exists to transport exclusively di and tripeptides in the duodenum (first part of small intestine). Everyone has them, and everyone has them IN GREAT NUMBERS. These transporters have been found, unchanged, in bacteria from 2.5B years ago. http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/5/1067.full.pdf is one example. You can Google "Pept-1 Transporter Eukariotic Bacteria."

Anyway, these transporters exist in you and they are there to absorb hydrolyzed protein molecules from breast milk as an infant. Breast milk is 60% whey and 40% casein, and has a very low molecular weight, allowing these PEPT-1 transporters to pull a significant amount of di and tripeptides into the bloodstream and nourish the infant. Over time, these transporters don't see much use anymore because you adjust to a whole food diet, and are not ingesting low-molecular weight substances anymore, and thereby are not intaking di or tripeptides anymore. The consequence is that whole food supplements, including isolates and concentrates, are absorbed primarily as free-form aminos in the ileum.

However, when you use a High-DH low-AMU protein supplement these transporters become active, and can absorb significant levels of these small peptides. This is where the absorption difference comes from. Large protein molecules must be significantly broken down and absorbed inefficiently in the ileum. They also enter the blood as free-form aminos, and raise amino-plasma levels to your personal tolerance, at which point the liver will begin to deaminate (Deamination - Wikipedia) these aminos are output in the uric acid. This is why you can test for nitrogen in your urine and it will be elevated hours after taking a protein supplement. Contrarily, di and tripeptides do not raise amino-plasma levels and are not deaminated by the liver. They are able to circulate in the bloodstream to more effectively benefit your body as a whole.

So you are doubly wasting your money by purchasing a lower-absorbing protein product, and at least some of what is absorbed is deaminated, further lowering your cost-efficiency through buying whey isolates, concentrates, and low-DH hydrolyzed whey products, in comparison to purchasing a high-DH protein product."

 

[BigChad]

To get to hydro whey, you’ve stripped the milk to only the amino acids, so grass fed, gmo, anything free you want doesn’t really matter.
You already have a naked product, the rest is just them having fun with the label.

Why not whole milk as a whole food protein source rather than spiking your insulin with amino acids?

Based on what this guy said, breast milk actually has some benefits over regular milk and is apparently hydrolyzed protein

 

[Dutch Thomson]

that depends on the percentage of DH right? Most products on the market seem to be 2% DH, while protein crunchs proto whey product is 12.5% DH, Muscle Feasts product is 15% DH. DH meaning degree of hydrolysis.
In order to get to just bare amino acids that would be 100% DH from my understanding?

I do have whole milk but due to calories, estrogens in it and too much milkfat, I don't know if I should go above 12 oz of whole milk a day. That may also be too much lactose on a daily basis?

Supposedly hydrolyzed whey has unique benefits due to the presence of di, tri, quatra and pentapeptides only present in hydrolyzed whey?

Found this post regarding hydrolyzed whey on reddit:

"Okay, I think we need an education in protein digestion, absorption, and cost effectiveness here.

TLDR: Whey concentrates, isolates, and low-DH hydrolysates are both less effective and cost-efficient than high-DH whey hydrolysates.

Can we all agree that what we're after here is NOT the cost per pound of protein in the jar, but rather, the cost per pound of protein absorbed to be utilized by the body? After all, if you get 10LBs of protein for around $50 but only absorb 1/3 of it, you've wasted 2/3 of your 10LB, and thereby tripled your cost. Additionally, due to the fact that whey isolates, concentrates, and most hydrolysates are absorbed in the ileum as free-form amino acids, your liver will naturally deaminate these aminos once your blood level becomes saturated with them, and you can test for this by seeing if there is nitrogen in your urine, but I digress. Let's talk about just absorption here.

Let's break it down in simple terms:

$50 for 10LB: $5 per pound. If you absorb around 1/3: $5 for 1/3 pound, or $50 for 3.33LB or $150 for 10LB.

Where am I getting these numbers? That requires a little bit of explanation. Since we are talking about whey, there are various "grades" of whey protein, just as there are various "grades" of gasoline. The primary three are whey concentrate, whey isolate, and whey hydrolysate. Most of us know this but I am going to go through them anyway. The absorption rate varies greatly from person to person depending of factors such as: digestive health, age, stress levels, digestive efficiency, type of protein, whether or not it was a liquid or solid supplement that was consumed, time of consumption, whether or not there was food in the stomach already, and even more factors. So it is difficult to calculate exactly, but generally a rate of 30% is actually pretty gratuitous. The rate is even lower for plant-based proteins which are not affected by our primary digestive acids. Soy, for example, has a notoriously low absorption rate.

Whey Concentrate

Whey Concentrate has gone through filtration to produce a 'concentrate' of whey protein that is about 90% whey. The formulation still contains fat and lactose as that has not been filtered out. The molecular weight is around 18,000+ daltons or higher. Breakdown of these large molecules takes a long time, and as a result they are primarily absorbed by free-form amino transporters in the ileum. This is the final section of the small intestine before the waste is passed into the colon where it is consumed by bacteria and fermented giving you the gas and bloating associated with many products.

Whey Isolate

Whey Isolate has been either cross-filtered or cold-filtered to remove the vast majority of fat and lactose from the concentrate stage. This gives it a higher protein percentage of around 97%. The molecular size, however, remains unchanged. 18,000+ daltons. Though purer, this still suffers from the same absorption rate of concentrates.

Whey Hydrolysate

Whey Hydrolysate is either isolate or concentrate that has been enzymatically reduced (pre-digested, for lack of a better phrase) in size. The degree of this hydrolization varies from product to product. The higher the DH (degree of hydrolization), the smaller the peptides become. Smaller peptides are more easily absorbed by the body and are absorbed in a higher percentage. However, the vast majority of hydrolyzed products available are relatively low-DH. In order to significantly impact the absorption rate, we need peptides with an average molecular weight of ~ 1,000 daltons. This means primarily di, tri, quadra, pentapeptides are advantageous to the composition of our powders, and increases the absorption rate significantly.

Now, you might be inclined to Google some of my claims, which I encourage. However, much of the research does not distinguish HIGH-DH from LOW-DH in terms of hydrolysis. If you hydrolyze an isolate only ever so slightly you can technically call it "hydrolyzed" though you will not see benefits of hydrolization from these kinds of studies. Make sure you see an AVERAGE MOLECULAR WEIGHT of around 1,000 daltons in your studies if you Google, otherwise the results are skewed.

Now, let's talk about the benefits of a high-DH supplement. Aside from a vastly improved absorption rate (and therefore best cost-efficiency). A high-DH supplement containing di and tripeptides, quadrapeptides and pentapeptides will cost more than an isolate or concentrate. Sometimes up to 40-50% more. Is it worth it? It depends. If it is significantly hydrolyzed you can bet it is worth it.

To look at the advantages of significantly high-DH supplements, let's take a look at something called a PEPT-1 transporter. This is a protein transporter (something that transports peptides from the intestine through the cell wall, into the bloodstream) that exists to transport exclusively di and tripeptides in the duodenum (first part of small intestine). Everyone has them, and everyone has them IN GREAT NUMBERS. These transporters have been found, unchanged, in bacteria from 2.5B years ago. http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/5/1067.full.pdf is one example. You can Google "Pept-1 Transporter Eukariotic Bacteria."

Anyway, these transporters exist in you and they are there to absorb hydrolyzed protein molecules from breast milk as an infant. Breast milk is 60% whey and 40% casein, and has a very low molecular weight, allowing these PEPT-1 transporters to pull a significant amount of di and tripeptides into the bloodstream and nourish the infant. Over time, these transporters don't see much use anymore because you adjust to a whole food diet, and are not ingesting low-molecular weight substances anymore, and thereby are not intaking di or tripeptides anymore. The consequence is that whole food supplements, including isolates and concentrates, are absorbed primarily as free-form aminos in the ileum.

However, when you use a High-DH low-AMU protein supplement these transporters become active, and can absorb significant levels of these small peptides. This is where the absorption difference comes from. Large protein molecules must be significantly broken down and absorbed inefficiently in the ileum. They also enter the blood as free-form aminos, and raise amino-plasma levels to your personal tolerance, at which point the liver will begin to deaminate (Deamination - Wikipedia) these aminos are output in the uric acid. This is why you can test for nitrogen in your urine and it will be elevated hours after taking a protein supplement. Contrarily, di and tripeptides do not raise amino-plasma levels and are not deaminated by the liver. They are able to circulate in the bloodstream to more effectively benefit your body as a whole.

So you are doubly wasting your money by purchasing a lower-absorbing protein product, and at least some of what is absorbed is deaminated, further lowering your cost-efficiency through buying whey isolates, concentrates, and low-DH hydrolyzed whey products, in comparison to purchasing a high-DH protein product."

What protein powders do you recommend?