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Hydrogen Peroxide (h2o2) Therapy?

pone

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Has Ray Peat said anything about the use of hydrogen peroxide as a therapy to increase oxygen inside the cell? The assumption is that this might trigger NADH recycling to NAD+ in individual suffering from mitochondrial dysfunction in making NAD+.

This article from Ray Peat make me think he might not like this therapy:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... tion.shtml

It contains the passage "Increasing the delivery of oxygen at higher pressure doesn't increase the cellular use of oxygen or decrease lactic acid production in the exercising muscle [Kohzuki, et al., 2000], but it will increase lipid peroxidation."
 

Suikerbuik

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Not sure what RP thinks of hydrogen peroxide.

I read something about it some time ago. In theory sounds something worth to try out, certainly when you don't know much about how things work or may work. I wouldn't use it, as you can't control it and there's many other uncertainties in my opinion.
 
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Is this something people already do? Do you have any more details?

Wouldn't the hydrogen peroxide produce damaging free oxygen radicals, rather than the O2 that our cells use for respiration?
 
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Suikerbuik

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There's some more info on the web. It depends on the environment what happens with the H2O2. If it gets in contact with a metal like iron it will form highly damaging radicals. If it gets in contact with catalase you will get O2. And there's more possibities depending of the pH and solutes.
 
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haidut

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The drug DNP lowers NADH and that is one of the proposed reasons for it increasing metabolism and helping people lose weight.

Dinitrophenol pretreatment of rat ventricular myocytes protects against damage by metabolic inhibition and reperfusion. - PubMed - NCBI

"...Fluorescence measurements showed that dinitrophenol caused mitochondrial depolarisation, and decreased NADH. The presence of the substrates glucose and pyruvate reduced these effects, and abolished the protection against damage by metabolic inhibition and reperfusion. However protection was unaffected by block of ATP-sensitive potassium channels. Thus the protective effects of pretreatment with dinitrophenol may result from a reduction in NADH in response to mitochondrial depolarisation.

If the reduction in NADH results from mitochondrial uncoupling than caffeine, aspirin, thyroid, sodium (salt), etc would all be good for reducing NADH and increasing metabolism.
Nothing new, right? :)
 
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Peata

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Saw this mention of hydrogen peroxide today in RPs Sugar Issues article

Besides protecting against the reductive stresses, fructose can also protect against the oxidative stress of increased hydrogen peroxide (Spasojevic, et al., 2009). Its metabolite, fructose 1,6-bisphosphate, is even more effective as an antioxidant
 
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pone

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CellularIconoclast said:
Is this something people already do? Do you have any more details?

Wouldn't the hydrogen peroxide produce damaging free oxygen radicals, rather than the O2 that our cells use for respiration?

There are osteopathic doctors who are big on using Ozone to improve oxygen metabolism efficiency. One of those is Dr Frank Shallenberger and his site is here: Anti Aging Treatment | Alternative Medicine | Dr. Frank Shallenberger M.D. | Carson City NV | Reno NV

I have not read his book "Bursting With Energy" so I don't know the details. What I don't understand is how can something like ozone improve mitochondrial *use* of oxygen? Wouldn't oxygen saturation simply increase? And this would be at the expense of CO2 saturation, which if you believe Peat means there is less oxygen utilization, since CO2 is supposed to enhance use of oxygen?
 
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Blossom

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There is normally plenty of oxygen for most of us in the air we breathe already. The anti-aging industry is generally operating under the same flawed assumptions as mainstream medicine. Supplemental oxygen, ozone and hydrogen peroxide will all potentially lead to increased ROS. Peat's work points us in the direction of minimizing the damage of excessive 02 by optimizing CO2. This is a basic premise of his work. Many people end up with hypoxia simply from not being able to adequately utilize the oxygen they breath due to impaired cellular metabolism. It's fruitless in the long run to try to correct this issue with a band aid like oxygen, hydrogen peroxide or ozone and really does more harm than good. Most people can improve oxygen utilisation simply by correcting cellular respiration and doing some simple bag breathing. No expensive unnecessary treatments required. Just my own perspective of course.
 
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SQu

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I know of someone who healed himself of cancer with an ozone machine. Perhaps he healed because he gave it time and kept away from hospitals; and maybe his feeling of empowerment and hope made all the difference, as per those swimming rats. I find the atmosphere in hospitals toxic, in so many ways, most of all the feelings of helplessness, fear, panic, and threat.
 
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Blossom

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sueq said:
I know of someone who healed himself of cancer with an ozone machine. Perhaps he healed because he gave it time and kept away from hospitals; and maybe his feeling of empowerment and hope made all the difference, as per those swimming rats. I find the atmosphere in hospitals toxic, in so many ways, most of all the feelings of helplessness, fear, panic, and threat.
What a great story! I agree wholeheartedly with staying away from toxic hospitals whenever possible as being healing. Sometimes things that may not be optimal are still healing because they are empowering, and better than the multitude of poisons and foul treatment on would get at a hospital. :thumbup:
 
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pone

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Blossom said:
There is normally plenty of oxygen for most of us in the air we breathe already. The anti-aging industry is generally operating under the same flawed assumptions as mainstream medicine. Supplemental oxygen, ozone and hydrogen peroxide will all potentially lead to increased ROS. Peat's work points us in the direction of minimizing the damage of excessive 02 by optimizing CO2. This is a basic premise of his work. Many people end up with hypoxia simply from not being able to adequately utilize the oxygen they breath due to impaired cellular metabolism. It's fruitless in the long run to try to correct this issue with a band aid like oxygen, hydrogen peroxide or ozone and really does more harm than good. Most people can improve oxygen utilisation simply by correcting cellular respiration and doing some simple bag breathing. No expensive unnecessary treatments required. Just my own perspective of course.

I share your concern about reactive oxygen species, but I don't think you are making a fair criticism of ozone.

The ozone proponents are claiming that:

1) Ozone increases oxygen *uptake* by the cell, which improves the amount of oxygen utilized for cellular respiration.

2) Ozone improves mitochondrial function.

I'm not saying either of those claims is true. I'm asking about whether they are. But it's an incorrect attack on the ozone proponents to say that they are just trying to increase oxygen levels.

In Peat's view how do we improve "cellular respiration"?

Regarding increasing CO2 by bag breathing, that doesn't strike me as a long term sustainable therapy. The body would quickly compensate by breathing. I have tried using sodium bicarbonate and I guess that might tend to increase CO2 concentrations as well. Strangely, after taking sodium bicarb I start to breathe more *slowly*. Increasing CO2 levels should be associated with more rapid breathing. That makes me think that the rising CO2 must be doing something non trivial at the cellular level that slows down my use of oxygen? This stuff gets tricky.
 
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tara

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pone said:
Regarding increasing CO2 by bag breathing, that doesn't strike me as a long term sustainable therapy. The body would quickly compensate by breathing. I have tried using sodium bicarbonate and I guess that might tend to increase CO2 concentrations as well. Strangely, after taking sodium bicarb I start to breathe more *slowly*. Increasing CO2 levels should be associated with more rapid breathing. That makes me think that the rising CO2 must be doing something non trivial at the cellular level that slows down my use of oxygen? This stuff gets tricky.

By forcing the CO2 level up for a period of time on a regular basis, I think you can raise the CO2 set point, so that it reduces chronic hyperventilation on an ongoing basis. I'm not sure if a minute or two is long enough, but maybe it is - I've read references saying this has been demonstrated for time periods on the order of 10-20 mins.

I think once the CO2 set point is up, or if you can hold it up for a period, the higher blood CO2 allows you to release more O2 to the cells while breathing less.

This is based on my memory from normalbreathing.com.
 
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pone

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tara said:
pone said:
Regarding increasing CO2 by bag breathing, that doesn't strike me as a long term sustainable therapy. The body would quickly compensate by breathing. I have tried using sodium bicarbonate and I guess that might tend to increase CO2 concentrations as well. Strangely, after taking sodium bicarb I start to breathe more *slowly*. Increasing CO2 levels should be associated with more rapid breathing. That makes me think that the rising CO2 must be doing something non trivial at the cellular level that slows down my use of oxygen? This stuff gets tricky.

By forcing the CO2 level up for a period of time on a regular basis, I think you can raise the CO2 set point, so that it reduces chronic hyperventilation on an ongoing basis. I'm not sure if a minute or two is long enough, but maybe it is - I've read references saying this has been demonstrated for time periods on the order of 10-20 mins.

I think once the CO2 set point is up, or if you can hold it up for a period, the higher blood CO2 allows you to release more O2 to the cells while breathing less.

This is based on my memory from normalbreathing.com.

I want to try out taking carbonated water and see if that has the same effect on my breathing frequency that sodium bicarbonate does. Sodium bicarb could be raising CO2, but it also might just be affecting alkaline stores in the body and shifting pH more alkaline. A test with carbonated water should help me clarify if the effect I am seeing is CO2 alone.

Can anyone recommend a carbonated water brand that is sufficiently dosed with CO2 to help do a test like this with a quart of water?
 
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EndAllDisease

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Since Endotoxic-producing bacteria are anaerobic, wouldn't it be a wise strategy to include a drop of H2O2 (food grade) in every glass of water we drink?
h2o2-oxidizer.jpg


Not only will this potent antioxidant destroy bacteria in the gut, but any leftover will be used to help detoxify the body. H202 in water would be similar to taking Vitamin C, yet probably even better. Do you see any flaws in my logic and/or reasons not to do this?
 

Suikerbuik

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Not sure why you think it is an antioxidant? To my knowlegde it is an oxidant.

I doubt a drop is enough to destroy bacteria, it is a fairly small molecule and possibly much of it will be absorbed or reacted before it reaches the majority of the gut flora.The oxygen that forms (catalyzed by catalase) is most likely neglectable compared to how much you breath in.
If you still like to consume it, don't do it in the presence of iron or other metals. Or focus on gut flora, as some bacteria can produce H2O2 for you in the right place.
 

Giraffe

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide

Both the effectiveness and safety of hydrogen peroxide therapy is disputed by mainstream scientists. Hydrogen peroxide is produced by the immune system but in a carefully controlled manner. Cells called by phagocytes engulf pathogens and then use hydrogen peroxide to destroy them. The peroxide is toxic to both the cell and the pathogen and so is kept within a special compartment, called a phagosome. Free hydrogen peroxide will damage any tissue it encounters via oxidative stress; a process which also has been proposed as a cause of cancer.
 

EndAllDisease

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Thanks for the replies so far!

My thoughts:
It's my understanding that the term 'antioxidant' in general is kind of a misnomer.
Vitamin C is popularly given the handle of antioxidant because it oxidizes or neutralizes free radicals. Although it would make more sense to call something that oxidizes a pro-oxidant, mainstream nutrition prefers to call them antioxidants. H202 is water + an extra molecule of oxygen, which can be used to oxidize waste products, toxins and microorganisms.

If bacteria that produce endotoxin cannot survive in an oxygen-rich environment, then it seems to me adding oxygen to water via a drop or two of inexpensive 15% H202 would be the most efficient and economical way to manage and eliminate gut-bacterial overgrowths... unless Giraffe is correct...

Giraffe said:
post 117075 Free hydrogen peroxide will damage any tissue it encounters via oxidative stress; a process which also has been proposed as a cause of cancer.

This I did not know. I have read a book called Hydrogen Peroxide: Medical Miracle which boasts intravenous H202 as a miracle treatment for many different problems for its ability to clean the bloodstream of toxins, micr-organisms and other waste products.
51wX7G5E5bL._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


If hydrogen peroxide does "damage any tissue it encounters via oxidative stress", evidence of it shouldn't be hard to find. Does anybody have any to add weight to this claim?
 
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