Humans And Lobsters Use Serotonin For Dominance Hierarchies

[pimpnamedraypeat]

Serotonin works on the hypothalamus, which influences the pituitary into releasing growth hormone. Melatonin delays puberty: serotonin hastens it.

What happens if you take melatonin during puberty?

A factor is that masculine men are given higher social status naturally. Estrogenic men have to fight for it. People naturally respect more masculine looking men.

masculine men have better genes and higher androgens. they are better able to withstand social stress and are more likely to win male v make competitions. They're given respect because they earned it by having good genes and good development.

It could be true: the most power-hungrier people I have known are normally pretty estrogenic. The masculine guy tends to be just chill. I think that when you can't win physiologicaly you try to.do it materially.

There was a study on the popular kids in highschool rhat showed that the higher in rank you looked the meaner and more undercutting the people were. but when you got to the top echelon, the highest ranked people, they were especially nice and friendly to everyone.

I think what the study failed to mention but is plainly obvious is that they were probably the best looking and thus Inherently socially successful. They did not have to fight for their position.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Lobsters are just a big cockroach of the sea.

 

[What-a-Riot]

survivors?

 

[Constatine]

What happens if you take melatonin during puberty?



masculine men have better genes and higher androgens. they are better able to withstand social stress and are more likely to win male v make competitions. They're given respect because they earned it by having good genes and good development.



There was a study on the popular kids in highschool rhat showed that the higher in rank you looked the meaner and more undercutting the people were. but when you got to the top echelon, the highest ranked people, they were especially nice and friendly to everyone.

I think what the study failed to mention but is plainly obvious is that they were probably the best looking and thus Inherently socially successful. They did not have to fight for their position.

They do have good behaviors that would earn respect but their physical traits alone also influence people. One would have a much different attitude towards a big man with a huge jaw vs an average Joe naturally. The body is the window to the soul, people are pretty good at reading the significance of physical traits.

 

[Travis]

What happens if you take melatonin during puberty?

It just slows the release of growth hormone. It antaogonizes serotonin in this respect.

But if growth hormone sets the biological clock, then other things would be expected to be influential. Serotonin and melatonin are certainly not the only factors that work on the pituitary.

 

[Lurker]

Wow some aggressive people (on the internet) on this thread plus some insightful commentary from others. Dr Peterson has some well thought out ideas that if you just skim the headlines, you're missing some real gold. I'm probably 40 hrs into his podcasts and really enjoying his take on the whole evolution of mythology, order/chaos, Jungian archetypes etc.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I was thinking that in animals there seems to be a natural dominance hierarchy order whether is the alpha chimp or the wolf pack leader. Same is true for tribal humans. It would be anarchy and chaos without a leader. It seems possible for humans to rise above the animal state if we can keep from destroying each other.

 

[Travis]

Dr. Peterson may have some good points, but serotonin seems to have many functions. It seems to inhibit memory, a process largely determined by cholinergic processes. I can't say it better than than Pérez-Vega:

Presynaptic inhibition of cholinergic release by serotoninergic innervation of both the CTX and the hippocampus has been postulated (31,40) to control the adequate accomplishment of learning and memory as well as spatial orientation paradigms (22,25,31,40). Pharmacological blockade of serotoninergic activity has been shown by some authors to enhance learning and memory skills (21,31), whereas others have reported that serotonin (5-HT) agonists deteriorate such skills (22).

Smokers have been shown multiple times to have lower Alzheimer's rates and higher acetylcholine "receptors" in their brains. One of the acetylcholine receptors is subclassed the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor, highlighting its affinity for this natural drug. It would be interesting to see if smoking upregulated the acetylcholine-producing neurons as well, and how exactly serotonin influences the firing of these...

González-Burgos, I., et al. "Effect of tryptophan restriction on short-term memory." Physiology & behavior 63.2 (1998): 165-169.
Nicotinic acetylcholine receptor - Wikipedia

 

[Lucenzo01]

Dr. Peterson may have some good points, but serotonin seems to have many functions. It seems to inhibit memory, a process largely determined by cholinergic processes. I can't say it better than than Pérez-Vega:

Smokers have been shown multiple times to have lower Alzheimer's rates and higher acetylcholine "receptors" in their brains. One of the acetylcholine receptors is subclassed the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor, highlighting its affinity for this natural drug. It would be interesting to see if smoking upregulated the acetylcholine-producing neurons as well, and how exactly serotonin influences the firing of these...

González-Burgos, I., et al. "Effect of tryptophan restriction on short-term memory." Physiology & behavior 63.2 (1998): 165-169.
Nicotinic acetylcholine receptor - Wikipedia

I have read several times that the cholinegic system must be keep down. Sorry for the language, this is beyond my knowledge. OTOH, I used to smoke as a chimney and tobacco was the only thing that kept me sane at my worst, I couldn't stop smoking to save my life. Since Peating I smoke way less and I think I could stop if I wanted, but for what I have read I am convinced it's healthy. If the government wants we stop smoking it's not for our well-being, quite the contrary.

 

[Travis]

I'm not advocating smoking either way. I smoke myself personally, about 14 per day. Some of the best people smoked tobacco, such as Bertrand Russell and Marshall McLuhan. But of course there have also been many famous non-smokers as well.

That Pérez-Vega quote is kinda dense, I need to track-down those citations. She (he?) seems to think that serotonin inhibits acetylcholine transmission. She has written many articles on serotonin and learning that I am starting to read just now.

I have read several times that the cholinegic system must be keep down.

Yeah. A few drugs can cause acetylcholine overload, like organophosphates. Maybe it's the small changes from smoking that create neuro-plasticity? and keep the acetylcholine nerves metabolically active (yet with acetylcholine levels still within range)?

 

[Footscray]

Dr Peterson shouldn't be dismissed because we don't agree with all of his ideas. His current biblical series is so anticipated by me that I just can't wait to hear the next one. I've looked at the biblical stories for decades from different angles but he is shining more light on them than I could have imagined. They are well worth listening to.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

It's been a while since I've seen such a complete display of ad hominem, going after both the maker of the argument and his audience as the primary counter. Impressive.

Yeah, it reeks of desperation.

Anyways, aggression, dominance and serotonin do go together. One of the things ignored in the discussion is the timescale. Some people feel, look and perform incredible on cortisol. For a time. If you are at the top of the dominance hierarchy, you don't need aggression except to defend, but if you are at the bottom, you need to fight to get up. OTOH that is draining and if you keep failing the organism gives up to rest, but adding artificial stress hormones could squeeze the last bits energy from the organism.

Stress hormones have a lot of purposes depending on the context. Serotonin causes aggression and learned helplessness, but which one depends on the context and the individual.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

"Interestingly, 5-HT had the opposite effect in lobsters and crayfish [20]. In these invertebrates, 5-HT injected into hemolymph increased the affinity of the subordinate for fighting and temporarily increased the chance for dominance in that individual. Therefore, instead of diminishing dominant status, 5-HT enhances dominant status in crustaceans. The same applies to certain primates. When serotonergic activity was enhanced in vervet monkeys via fluoxetine, treated animals acquired a high dominance status, although they gained status via affiliative or associative interactions rather than increased fighting"

SSRIs do a whole lot of things, not just increase serotonin. No one what flouxetine really does to a brain or an organism.

 

[Constatine]

Yeah, it reeks of desperation.

Anyways, aggression, dominance and serotonin do go together. One of the things ignored in the discussion is the timescale. Some people feel, look and perform incredible on cortisol. For a time. If you are at the top of the dominance hierarchy, you don't need aggression except to defend, but if you are at the bottom, you need to fight to get up. OTOH that is draining and if you keep failing the organism gives up to rest, but adding artificial stress hormones could squeeze the last bits energy from the organism.

Stress hormones have a lot of purposes depending on the context. Serotonin causes aggression and learned helplessness, but which one depends on the context and the individual.

Well put.

 

[Travis]

Also depends on the brain region.

In the prefrontal cortex, serotonin inhibits acetylcholine receptors. It both deadens the cholinergic response* and decreases the receptor mRNA over time.† These are essential for memory and are found greatly reduced in Alzheimer's disease.‡ This seems to be the most consistent finding right besides high aluminum.

Drugs that antagonize these receptors (mecamylamine) have been shown clinically to inhibit memory in tests, and drugs that agonize them (nicotine) do the reverse.¶ This is a common finding.

It seems that the α4 receptor subtype is the one most involved in memory. Nicotine is the classic agonist for this receptor. Maybe the best way to explain it is that acetylcholine provides the brain energy to make new connections?

Here are some quotes that I stumbled across while going down this rabbit hole:

Acute administration of nicotine to Alzheimer’s disease (AD) patients improves perceptual and visual attention deficits (Jones et al., 1992) and semantic memory performance (Parks et al., 1996). –Martin-Ruiz

In animals, nicotine facilitates task acquisition and memory consolidation (Nelson and Goldstein 1972; Nordberg and Bergh 1985), has been shown to improve delayed match-to-sample performance in monkeys. –Newhouse

In humans, nicotine is reported to increase arousal and attention as well as to decrease reaction time, prevent decline in efficiency over time, and improve the ability to withhold inappropriate responses. –Newhouse

(Probably why I don't have Tourette's.)

In pilot studies (Newhouse et al. 1988b, 1990), we have shown that intravenous nicotine produces small but measurable improvements in several cognitive tasks in AD patients. –Newhouse

Recently, Jones and colleagues (1992) have shown that acutely administered nicotine can improve attention and speed of information processing in AD patients.–Newhouse

Subsequent re-administration of the “best dose” of nicotine (5 pg/kg) to the monkey again yielded significant enhancement of performance. Similar dose response effects were observed in the other four monkeys. –Elrod

Also, nicotine has been shown to stimulate the release of cerebrocortical acetylcholine (47). –Elrod

¶Elrod, Karey, Jerry J. Buccafusco [sic], and William J. Jackson. "Nicotine enhances delayed matching-to-sample performance by primates." Life Sciences 43.3 (1988): 277-287.
¶Newhouse, Paul A., et al. "Age-related effects of the nicotinic antagonist mecamylamine on cognition and behavior." Neuropsychopharmacology 10.2 (1994): 93-107.
‡Martin‐Ruiz, C. M., et al. "α4 but not α3 and α7 nicotinic acetylcholine receptor subunits are lost from the temporal cortex in Alzheimer's disease." Journal of neurochemistry 73.4 (1999): 1635-1640.
†Soria-Fregozo, C., et al. "5-HT denervation of the adult rat prefrontal cortex induces changes in the expression of α4 and α7 nicotinic acetylcholine receptor subtypes." Neurología (English Edition) 28.4 (2013): 212-218.
Coyle, Joseph T., Donald L. Price, and Mahlon R. Delong. "Alzheimer's disease: a disorder of cortical cholinergic innervation." Science 219.4589 (1983): 1184-1190.
*Dougherty, John J., and Robert A. Nichols. "Cross-regulation between colocalized nicotinic acetylcholine and 5-HT3 serotonin receptors on presynaptic nerve terminals." Acta Pharmacologica Sinica 30.6 (2009): 788.
*Hong, Y., and K. Krnjević. "Serotonin blocks the facilitatory action of muscarinic and nicotinic agents in the hippocampus in vivo." Canadian journal of physiology and pharmacology 67.1 (1989): 47-53.

 

[Kyle M]

Stress hormones have a lot of purposes depending on the context. Serotonin causes aggression and learned helplessness, but which one depends on the context and the individual.

Unfortunately the way people talk about "bad" chemicals in the body is one-sided, just saying "this was produced" or "this molecule does this." There isn't much talk about "compared to what." For example, if mice have their TLR4 receptors knocked out, they are resistant to obesity from normally obesogenic research diets, but they also die from several times lower bacterial infection or LPS administration. I think a lot of people that try to get into this stuff have the vague and unexamined idea floating around that the body mistakenly just creates these negative molecules and your goal is to minimize them at all times.

 

[lollipop]

Unfortunately the way people talk about "bad" chemicals in the body is one-sided, just saying "this was produced" or "this molecule does this." There isn't much talk about "compared to what." For example, if mice have their TLR4 receptors knocked out, they are resistant to obesity from normally obesogenic research diets, but they also die from several times lower bacterial infection or LPS administration. I think a lot of people that try to get into this stuff have the vague and unexamined idea floating around that the body mistakenly just creates these negative molecules and your goal is to minimize them at all times.

+1 totally agree on this. The mechanisms and interactions are far too complex to reduce it to a bad--->get rid of position.

 

[Constatine]

Unfortunately the way people talk about "bad" chemicals in the body is one-sided, just saying "this was produced" or "this molecule does this." There isn't much talk about "compared to what." For example, if mice have their TLR4 receptors knocked out, they are resistant to obesity from normally obesogenic research diets, but they also die from several times lower bacterial infection or LPS administration. I think a lot of people that try to get into this stuff have the vague and unexamined idea floating around that the body mistakenly just creates these negative molecules and your goal is to minimize them at all times.

Exactly. Many studies do this as well to some degree. Its an idea that plagues physiology in general. Ray Peat is one of the few who truly understands context. Unfortunately much of what he says is taken out of context.
There is also the matter of whether a substance directly antagonizes a "negative molecule" or whether it benefits the body in some way to where less of such a molecule is needed or consequently produced. When stress substances are elevated chronically then antagonizing such substances may be therapeutic in restoring proper mitochondria respiration. Sometimes stress is a vicious cycle that leads to more stress (especially via reduced sleep quality) and antagonizing stress hormones can break the cycle. But when stress substances are elevated because they need to be one needs to change the environmental factors influencing the system. Such a situation calls for "raw resources" such as foods, light (that directly supplies energy), antioxidants, etc. Antagonizing a stress hormone directly in such a situation might lead to a failure in energy production.

 

[Travis]

+1 totally agree on this. The mechanisms and interactions are far too complex to reduce it to a bad--->get rid of position.

Yeah. I just came across these quotes highlighting the paradoxical nature of serotonin:

The in vitro activation of 5HT₂ receptors located in GABAergic interneurons induces both depolarization as well as hyperpolarization (Zhou and Hablitz, 1999).

And.

In the pyramidal cells, the 5-HT₁ receptors are preferentially located in the soma and in the basal dendrites (Riad et al., 2000), whereas 5HT₂ receptors establish synaptic contacts with apical dendrites (Xu and Pandey, 2000). Although these neurons are simultaneously excitatory and inhibitory...

So not only do they have paradoxical effects in certain contexts or at certain times, they have two opposing effects simultaneously! LOL.

...the inhibitory response predominates...

This article was written by a person who does experiments; he appears to be one of the few serious researchers (25 articles) who tends to be critical of serotonin. Many serotonin articles seem overly-optimistic, perhaps to ensure more research money from the pharmaceutical companies?

But he does almost boil it down into a catchphrase. Something that we can file-away into memory and seems harmonious with Ray Peat's views:

From in vitro and in vivo studies in rats, the predominant effect of 5HT in the prefrontal cortex is known to be inhibitory (Jacobs and Azmitia, 1992), despite the high density 5HT₂ of receptors (Lakoski and Aghajanian, 1985).

But he, of course, says nothing about other brain regions. I don't even think this guy studies other brain regions. He seems to write mostly about one brain region and one "neurotransmitter."

González-Burgos, Ignacio, and Alfredo Feria-Velasco. "Serotonin/dopamine interaction in memory formation." Progress in brain research 172 (2008): 603-623.

 

[passivity]

 

[Spokey]

Better to rule in lobster hell than serve in lobster heaven. Hand me the tryptophan.