Humans And Lobsters Use Serotonin For Dominance Hierarchies

Kyle M

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It could be true: the most power-hungrier people I have known are normally pretty estrogenic. The masculine guy tends to be just chill. I think that when you can't win physiologicaly you try to.do it materially.

Jordan Peterson is power-hungry? His audience is power-hungry? I've listened to some of his lectures, is that me? Is that an accurate description of his audience at large, and the man? How can the person who stated that possibly know this?

Either that or it's just ad hominem, a cheap tactic used to dispense with real argumentation. Which explains it better, that the person knows the characteristics of Peterson and his audience, or wants to dismiss them?

P.S. - he may or may not be wrong about serotonin in humans but that isn't really the point, the point is that hierarchical social orders are reinforced with physiological outcomes
 

haidut

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5-apdb To Deplete All Your Serotonin?

the op depleted his serotonin and sounded aggressive af . unless he forgot to turn the caps lock off

Nope, the OP does not know what he is talking about. The 5-apdb is a "serotonin releasing agent" - so quite the opposite to what OP claimed it would do, this is actually a powerful serotonergic agent developed as a much faster acting alternative to SSRI drugs. So, I would not touch it with a 10-foot pole.
5-APDB - Wikipedia
"...In animal studies, 5-APDB's effects generalize most closely to non-stimulant MDMA analogues such as MBDB and MMAI, while producing no substitution for LSD or amphetamine.[1] In vitro studies show that 5-APDB acts as a highly selective serotonin releasing agent (SSRA), with IC50 values of 130 nM, 7,089 nM, and 3,238 nM for inhibiting the reuptake of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, respectively.[1] In contrast, 6-APDB is more balanced on the three monoamine neurotransmitters and acts more similarly to MDA and MDMA."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_releasing_agent
 

haidut

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Frankdee20

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See my post above. This is a highly serotonergic agent, quite the opposite of what OP stated it would do.

Yeah I took a look at what the compound actually does. It's a phenylethylamine class, specifically a modified version of MDA. It is indeed a 5ht releasing agent. Primarily.
 

Frankdee20

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Interestingly enough, if you check out people's experiences with psychoactive drugs on Errowid, one user tried this substance, with nothing else. What he describes is worth noting, we think of 5ht in a certain way here.
 

AretnaP

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serotonin isn't that far off from estrogen in nature

Peterson knows more about psychology and philosophy than physiology
 
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But what Jordan peterson says is that serotonin helps one climb dominance hierarchies. He thinks serotonin is a good thing. I think he's kind of a hack tbh. He seems like the exact opposite of Peat. He just says "dominance hierarchies" and all these young men that are obsessed with him start drooling at the mouth. He talks in circles and seems to be in a kind of angry hypomanic state most of the time. Ranting and raving.


He IS a hack. Why do you think he's being promoted so hard? The guy is a pompous clown with a cult following of young, white, american men. Hes a dancing baboon. He's the intellectual McGregor.
 

Diokine

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If serotonin is such a malevolent demon, should we deplete it entirely in the brain? Nonsense. Clearly excessive serotonin production and excessive tryptophan transport into the brain can precipitate depression, aggression, and anxiety. However, the situation is not as black and white as many here are making it out to be - the entire nervous system and neuro-topology need to be taken into account.
 

AretnaP

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If serotonin is such a malevolent demon, should we deplete it entirely in the brain? Nonsense. Clearly excessive serotonin production and excessive tryptophan transport into the brain can precipitate depression, aggression, and anxiety. However, the situation is not as black and white as many here are making it out to be - the entire nervous system and neuro-topology need to be taken into account.
well, serotonin is an inflammatory, excitatory hromone

Peat acknowledges that the body has stress hormones for a reason, but thinks they do damage if they remain at high levels for a long time
 

Lucenzo01

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Jordan Peterson is power-hungry? His audience is power-hungry? I've listened to some of his lectures, is that me? Is that an accurate description of his audience at large, and the man? How can the person who stated that possibly know this?

Either that or it's just ad hominem, a cheap tactic used to dispense with real argumentation. Which explains it better, that the person knows the characteristics of Peterson and his audience, or wants to dismiss them?

P.S. - he may or may not be wrong about serotonin in humans but that isn't really the point, the point is that hierarchical social orders are reinforced with physiological outcomes

My point was that the estrogenic men tend to have power-fantasies and try to climb the wall at any cost. Masculine men are healthy and they usually doesn't give a **** about hierarchy and do do whatever they enjoy. That's my experience at least, I'm not saying that this is the truth.
 

kyle

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The hippies that take LSD/Shrooms don't seem interested in dominance or at least conventional expressions of it.

His die hard followers are usually sexually frustrated redditors who stopped reading the gaming Reddit and started reading the self improvement Reddit in an effort to "win" a mate. Usually people with grandiose power fatansies. Obsessed with climbing the "dominance hierarchy" so they can get money, women, status and power.

It is ironic to criticize other men for trying to gain status?

That said, most reddit users have never touched a woman. Hard to debate facts.
 

Travis

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However, the situation is not as black and white as many here are making it out to be - the entire nervous system and neuro-topology need to be taken into account.
Yeah. Some drugs tend to raise serotonin in one part of the brain and decrease them in another. Organization is key.

But I did see that chronic high-tryptophan diets in rats raise the steady-state serotonin level. You don't see this in short-term studies where only the Trp/ΣLNAA ratio makes a difference.

Tryptophan is a powerful releaser of growth hormone. Perhaps Peterson would like to see this:
tryp12.png
(One mL injection of 5-hydroxytryptophan [sic] at 10 ppm.)
Completely blocked by melatonin and cyproheptadine.

Serotonin works on the hypothalamus, which influences the pituitary into releasing growth hormone. Melatonin delays puberty: serotonin hastens it.

Low tryptophan diets prolong the life of rats by 23%. Interestingly, a feeding study with L-Dopa (antagonist) was also able to prolong life by 23%.* Dopamine is a powerful serotonin antagonist that does not seem to effect norepinephrine.
tryp10.png

In a way, some types of aggressiveness seem directly opposed to higher thinking. Many people think serotonin-inhibitors promote intelligence. I think the goal to shift brain energy away from the limbic brain more towards the periphery. There are studies which show more "branching" (arborization) with low serotonin. I haven't actually read these ones yet, but I am going to.

Has anyone tried gramme amounts of L-Dopa?

*This is modest compared to methionine. Slight reductions in methionine have been shown to prolong life about 35%. Excessive methionine can become polyamines, which are powerful growth agents.
 
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Constatine

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Now I've read things like this before, how high or low Serotonin corresponds in animal behavior. When we say aggression, isn't passivity an indication of learned helplessness? Isn't aggression healthy ? I'm the most non confrontational guy I ever met, it's crazy to think I have physical balls, and not a *****. Is this high or low Serotonin or nobody really knows in the end ? Lol
It's also confusing because wouldn't high Serotonin translate to social anxiety and thus deter one from being socially aggressive ?
With my experiences with serotonin (taking both strong agonists and antagonists) high serotonin seems to lead to frustration (and hence rage). It is not the same type of aggression as mediated by androgens and what not. That being said such frustrations can be productive and even healthy under appropriate circumstance, just not chronically.
 

Travis

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Peat called L-DOPA toxic in one of his newsletters.
Weird. Given in massive doses (400mg/kg) it prolongs the lifespan in rats.
 

Constatine

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My point was that the estrogenic men tend to have power-fantasies and try to climb the wall at any cost. Masculine men are healthy and they usually doesn't give a **** about hierarchy and do do whatever they enjoy. That's my experience at least, I'm not saying that this is the truth.
A factor is that masculine men are given higher social status naturally. Estrogenic men have to fight for it. People naturally respect more masculine looking men.
 

Dante

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Weird. Given in massive doses (400mg/kg) it prolongs the lifespan in rats.
I think he said because of increased iron/PUFA in the brain of older people, there is very high chance of excess dopamine being metabolized into "toxic" products.
 

pisser

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His die hard followers are usually sexually frustrated redditors who stopped reading the gaming Reddit and started reading the self improvement Reddit in an effort to "win" a mate. Usually people with grandiose power fatansies. Obsessed with climbing the "dominance hierarchy" so they can get money, women, status and power.

1) log into forum to intended for nutrition and well-being
2) make fun of kids trying to get their lives together
3) $$$$

You've come this far. He skimmed over seretonin and it left you upset, that's okay, he's not a biologist. It doesn't make him a hack. I think he's good at delineating the psychology behind our beliefs and struggles, which is something important especially in this political climate where people (like you) jump the gun.
 
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Energizer

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I've been listening to a lot of Jordan Peterson's podcasts lately which like Peat have completely blown my mind in that it has expanded my thinking. If you're not familiar he is a Canadian professor, clinical psychologist, philosopher etc recently making waves in the political discourse regarding made up gender pronouns (a topic for another forum).

But in listening, Dr Peterson mentioned that lobsters have the same serotonin systems that regulate the dominance hierarchies as humans. With the negative connotations of serotonin from the Peat perspective and well as a completely different perspective than the pharma feel good hormone, has any here looked at the dominance hierarchy angle? This would seem to indicate that serotonin is part of a deep, complex, and old biological system.

Here is an interview:


Humans definitely have some kind of social hierarchy, but I don't think it's quite that clear cut. Pop psychologists often reference wolf pack behavior borrowing from Rudolph Schenkel's observations on wolf packs. Unfortunately, Schenkel used captive wolves for his research. M.W. Fox, who studied wolves in the wild later criticized Schenkels notion of an alpha wolf as the top dog as "particularly misleading". Modern psychologists often speak in colloquialisms that parrot these stereotypes. When considered in physiological terms, there is nothing "dominant" about serotonin, considering it is associated with stress and learned helplessness.
 
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