Humans And Lobsters Use Serotonin For Dominance Hierarchies

Lurker

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I've been listening to a lot of Jordan Peterson's podcasts lately which like Peat have completely blown my mind in that it has expanded my thinking. If you're not familiar he is a Canadian professor, clinical psychologist, philosopher etc recently making waves in the political discourse regarding made up gender pronouns (a topic for another forum).

But in listening, Dr Peterson mentioned that lobsters have the same serotonin systems that regulate the dominance hierarchies as humans. With the negative connotations of serotonin from the Peat perspective and well as a completely different perspective than the pharma feel good hormone, has any here looked at the dominance hierarchy angle? This would seem to indicate that serotonin is part of a deep, complex, and old biological system.

Here is an interview:
 

Tenacity

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I assume that 'dominance' in lobsters is determined [by humans] as which lobster is the most aggressive. Everywhere you look, from locusts to lobsters, serotonin is the hormone of aggression.
 

Frankdee20

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Now I've read things like this before, how high or low Serotonin corresponds in animal behavior. When we say aggression, isn't passivity an indication of learned helplessness? Isn't aggression healthy ? I'm the most non confrontational guy I ever met, it's crazy to think I have physical balls, and not a *****. Is this high or low Serotonin or nobody really knows in the end ? Lol
It's also confusing because wouldn't high Serotonin translate to social anxiety and thus deter one from being socially aggressive ?
 

DaveFoster

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I e-mailed Dr. Peterson about this specific topic a couple weeks ago. I referred him to Dr. Peat's article on serotonin, and I haven't heard back.
 

haidut

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I've been listening to a lot of Jordan Peterson's podcasts lately which like Peat have completely blown my mind in that it has expanded my thinking. If you're not familiar he is a Canadian professor, clinical psychologist, philosopher etc recently making waves in the political discourse regarding made up gender pronouns (a topic for another forum).

But in listening, Dr Peterson mentioned that lobsters have the same serotonin systems that regulate the dominance hierarchies as humans. With the negative connotations of serotonin from the Peat perspective and well as a completely different perspective than the pharma feel good hormone, has any here looked at the dominance hierarchy angle? This would seem to indicate that serotonin is part of a deep, complex, and old biological system.

Here is an interview:


Yes, serotonin is well-known to reverse dominance status in mammals and especially in primates. I think @Such_Saturation posted a few studies about that some time ago.
 

ilikecats

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Yes, serotonin is well-known to reverse dominance status in mammals and especially in primates. I think @Such_Saturation posted a few studies about that some time ago.
But what Jordan peterson says is that serotonin helps one climb dominance hierarchies. He thinks serotonin is a good thing. I think he's kind of a hack tbh. He seems like the exact opposite of Peat. He just says "dominance hierarchies" and all these young men that are obsessed with him start drooling at the mouth. He talks in circles and seems to be in a kind of angry hypomanic state most of the time. Ranting and raving.
 

ilikecats

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His die hard followers are usually sexually frustrated redditors who stopped reading the gaming Reddit and started reading the self improvement Reddit in an effort to "win" a mate. Usually people with grandiose power fatansies. Obsessed with climbing the "dominance hierarchy" so they can get money, women, status and power.
 
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Frankdee20

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His cult followers are usually sexually frustrated redditors who stopped reading the gaming Reddit and started reading the self improvement Reddit in an effort to "win" a mate. Usually people with grandiose power fatansies. Obsessed with climbing the "dominance hierarchy" so they can get money, women, status and power.


Lol. I wish I even wanted to be them.
 

Dhair

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Serotonin would only contribute to advancement in a dominance hierarchy insofar as it can make the organism aggressive enough to physically dominate or kill the other organisms. This is not useful for a happy of healthy life, and it's certainly not going to make you any friends.
I become more suspicious of Peterson as I see more of his stuff because this serotonin nonsense seems to be at the core of his social philosophy. He claims to have an IQ of 160 (which I'm beginning to feel is an arbitrary measure of intelligence with each passing day) so I would assume this isn't sheer ignorance on his part. If that's the case, he's just another psychologist who directly benefits for perpetuating this myth.
 
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Diokine

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I think that a large majority of the confusion comes from either the unwillingness or ignorance of mainstream medicine to relate the serotonergic system in proper context, as it relates to tryptophan metabolism and stress.

Serotonergic neurons are the principal mediators of cognition. If we consider the action of the different circuits of our nervous system, as they relate to cognition and perception, we can see how important it is that they be in proper balance for proper integration with the environment. Social integration is absolutely critical for survival in many species, humans especially so. Managing social and emotional intelligence is so important that many structures of our brain and nervous system are quite literally fashioned specifically to that end.

These structures are founded in the serotonergic system. Serotonin modulates the timing and strength of nervous potential, and through it the body is able to maintain extraordinarily complicated rhythms and cadences. You can think of serotonin as helping to create "extra dank" nervous pathways. Your pace of thought and how you perceive reality is built upon this timing. Take the example of learned helplessness - organisms quite literally cannot synthesize new ways to perceive their reality. Why not? Severe disruptions in serotonin metabolism and transport are among the major causes, as most of us on this forum are aware. I encourage deep consideration of the neurochemical implications of failure of the brain to synthesize new ways to think.

So let's look at the example of an organism that tops it's dominance hierarchy. This organism will be able to rapidly adjust to changing conditions in their physical reality, as well as their social environment. Like I previously stated, this required immense orchestration between different areas of the brain. So we can, roughly speaking, equate a rapid metabolism of serotonin and rapid changing of brain topology to this sort of well-adapted organism. You will find increased concentrations of serotonin transporters, receptors, and the amine itself in critical areas of the brain. The evidence is clear, that increased serotonin metabolism in these areas correlates with positive affect and perceived status.

The evidence is also clear, however, that increased intake of tryptophan into the brain and indiscriminately higher levels of serotonin are associated with anxiety and much other dis-ease. The metabolism of serotonin is so important that the brain has active measures to regulate it, which can fail during times of stress. Higher levels of serotonin will involve the pituitary, lower dopamine, and will generally indicate to the conscious apparatus of the organism that it is failing to integrate properly.

So researchers are seeing that the brain cycles through serotonin quicker in depressed people. The major disconnect is that the brain is cycling through it quicker because overall levels are much higher than they would be in a properly adjusted system. Ignorance of the media has greatly helped to perpetuate this misunderstanding. It's quite a paradox to see all the evidence showing that higher brain levels of tryptophan and serotonin clearly lead to disease, but also that increased serotonin is related to higher status. This is the reason for the use of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors.

Stress- and endotoxin-induced increases in brain tryptophan and serotonin metabolism depend on sympathetic nervous system activity.

Elevated Brain Serotonin Turnover in Patients With Depression
 

Kyle M

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But what Jordan peterson says is that serotonin helps one climb dominance hierarchies. He thinks serotonin is a good thing. I think he's kind of a hack tbh. He seems like the exact opposite of Peat. He just says "dominance hierarchies" and all these young men that are obsessed with him start drooling at the mouth. He talks in circles and seems to be in a kind of angry hypomanic state most of the time. Ranting and raving.

His die hard followers are usually sexually frustrated redditors who stopped reading the gaming Reddit and started reading the self improvement Reddit in an effort to "win" a mate. Usually people with grandiose power fatansies. Obsessed with climbing the "dominance hierarchy" so they can get money, women, status and power.

It's been a while since I've seen such a complete display of ad hominem, going after both the maker of the argument and his audience as the primary counter. Impressive.
 

Lucenzo01

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It's been a while since I've seen such a complete display of ad hominem, going after both the maker of the argument and his audience as the primary counter. Impressive.

It could be true: the most power-hungrier people I have known are normally pretty estrogenic. The masculine guy tends to be just chill. I think that when you can't win physiologicaly you try to.do it materially.
 

Herbie

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I think Peterson is only repeating what that one lobster study found and correlating to human dominance hierarchy and out of his league on this one. I listen to his lectures and he repeats that lobster study quite often and doesn't offer any other studies to back up the theory. I think he does say people at top of the dominance hierarchy have higher serotonin but its wrong to think that its the serotonin that got them there, rather the high serotonin is a result of a particular lifestyle.

Some people climb hierarchies some get the escalator.
 

DaveFoster

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It's been a while since I've seen such a complete display of ad hominem, going after both the maker of the argument and his audience as the primary counter. Impressive.
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schultz

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"Interestingly, 5-HT had the opposite effect in lobsters and crayfish [20]. In these invertebrates, 5-HT injected into hemolymph increased the affinity of the subordinate for fighting and temporarily increased the chance for dominance in that individual. Therefore, instead of diminishing dominant status, 5-HT enhances dominant status in crustaceans. The same applies to certain primates. When serotonergic activity was enhanced in vervet monkeys via fluoxetine, treated animals acquired a high dominance status, although they gained status via affiliative or associative interactions rather than increased fighting"
 

Frankdee20

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Interestingly the reference highlights environmental influences on 5ht, not endogenous or innate 5ht.
 
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