HRT W/ Estrogen Dominance - Please Advise

[oldfriend]

So I've been lurking on the forum for a while. Tried several supplements recommended here, as well as products from Idealabs to lower cortisol and estrogen. In retrospect, there were times when I was clearly overdoing it and never really getting the kind of result I wanted, i.e. allowing testosterone to rule unopposed. I've been scared but I'm really starting to come around to the idea of HRT. I have a few questions that are probably basic, but I tend to learn best with a bit of interaction.

Being somewhat estrogen dominant (varicocele), will I stand to benefit from introducing T or AAS? Can a guy who's never had a visible muscle outside of the time he was underweight suddenly get yoked? haha

Where do people acquire such things? Are they unregulated products purchased from the internet or are they obtained through the proper avenues like a naturopath or endocrinologist practice?

Which products are safest? And what is a good / definitive resource for learning more about them? (maybe it's here but these threads can be hard to navigate)

Has anybody noticed a decrease in depressive symptoms? IIRC there was a recent study linking cortisol:testosterone to depression.

Libido and performance improvements? Or not necessarily?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Personally I have huge benefit from (legal in the USA) supplements and I hate doctors who I won’t be going to one barring an emergency.

I find DHEA and progesterone and vitamin K2 and D3 and pregnenolone simply amazing.

I use these topically other than D3 that has excipients.

Progesterone is what I would be using if I were you. And DHEA. Why do you think you are low in testosterone, by the way?

I think T supplementation is okay if you are really low T, and have tried everything else, or you are maybe 80 or older, and then only a small physiological amount. I would try everything before I tried that.

Estrogen can be made worse with testosterone supplementation.

 

[oldfriend]

Progesterone is what I would be using if I were you. And DHEA. Why do you think you are low in testosterone, by the way?

Progesterone gives me high cortisol symptoms every time I've tried it so I use Pansterone instead.
The first two times I was tested my free T was in the mid to lower range and estradiol was over the reference range.
It's kind of obvious that my T tends to aromatize. I've used a combination of fat solubles, magnesium, tudca, zinc, and pantsterone with androsterone.
Never really got the kind of results I wanted with a regimen that targets estrogen and aromatization, so I'm wondering if T is a good route for me, maybe in combination with an AI.

 

[oldfriend]

For controlling estradiol, some of the most effective and dependable things I've taken are vitamin C, tudca, metergoline, possibly magnoil and possibly iodine w/selenium. This seems to suggest that prolactin is an issue for me as well. I took a break from supplements, got a little lax with my diet, started using THC semi-regularly (possibly the worst offender) and my estrogenic symptoms are back. I would like to phase out metergoline and rely less on chemicals. IME It's very easy to go overboard with things like fat solubles, metergoline, androsterone, progesterone/dhea/pregnenolone, etc. It's not clear to me why exactly. Depending on the dose I think metabolism requirements are increased and the net effect is more stressful than helpful; Less is definitely more, and it's about finding that perfect balance.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Progesterone gives me high cortisol symptoms every time I've tried it so I use Pansterone instead.
The first two times I was tested my free T was in the mid to lower range and estradiol was over the reference range.
It's kind of obvious that my T tends to aromatize. I've used a combination of fat solubles, magnesium, tudca, zinc, and pantsterone with androsterone.
Never really got the kind of results I wanted with a regimen that targets estrogen and aromatization, so I'm wondering if T is a good route for me, maybe in combination with an AI.

Progesterone caused me symptoms too. But I persevered when I found out it flushes estradiol out of cells. Once you get over that, it’s fantastic.

 

[oldfriend]

Progesterone caused me symptoms too. But I persevered when I found out it flushes estradiol out of cells. Once you get over that, it’s fantastic.

Yes I've read that, but I've also read that progesterone is a precursor to cortisol. Cortisol seems to be another dominating factor in my health. I've had gut, dental, mental, and surgical issues (varicocelectomy and varicocele embolization) so I have a tendency towards higher cortisol and that leaves me questioning whether a precursor to cortisol is the right course of action.

 

[oldfriend]

Stole this from another thread:

Here is RP's explanation on this issue: PREGNENOLONE 'STEAL' THEORY
Regarding the pregnenolone steal theory, It would be interesting to know who started that, it's a mechanical way of
thinking about physiology that ignores the things that really matter. Thyroid hormone, vitamin A, and cholesterol
support the formation of pregnenolone, and the well nourished body is able to make large adjustments in these, to
minimize the need for cortisol. In health, enough pregnenolone and progesterone are produced to inhibit the stress
systems, for example by inhibiting the release of ACTH. When something prevents the formation of pregnenolone
and progesterone, rising ACTH will increase its production as conditions permit, but if something, such as thyroid
hormone, is lacking, the ACTH will increase cortisol, often with DHEA and the androgens increasing too, if
resources permit; sometimes the stressed system is able to sustain only cortisol and aldosterone production, and that
leads to degenerative problems.

I guess my question is if low doses of T or AAS are helpful in restoring a balance when in this kind of stressed state, and/or when supplementing with things that target estrogen isn't getting you anywhere.

 

[haidut]

Yes I've read that, but I've also read that progesterone is a precursor to cortisol. Cortisol seems to be another dominating factor in my health. I've had gut, dental, mental, and surgical issues (varicocelectomy and varicocele embolization) so I have a tendency towards higher cortisol and that leaves me questioning whether a precursor to cortisol is the right course of action.

When progesterone is combined with DHEA that largely prevents its conversion into cortisol. And btw, the proegsterone conversion into cortisol is minor to start with. On top of that progesterone is a cortisol receptor (GR) blocker. So, its immediate effects are anti-cortisol and it only feed the cortisol pathway if the body perceives there is a deficiency of cortisol or (very rare) there is cortisol producing tumor somewhere that can use progesterone as a precursor. However, animal studies with Cushing syndrome do not show that progesterone exacerbates the issue. If anything, it improves it, and adding say even 5mg DHEA per dose of progesterone should amplify the anti-cortisol effects of progesterone even more. DHEA is itself anti-glucocorticoid, and also blocks 11b-HSD1 while increasing activity of 11b-HSD2. The former enzyme activates while the latter deactivates cortisol.

 

[oldfriend]

Ok I guess I will give progesterone another try and see if I can push through any initial uncomfortableness.
ecstatichamster do you have any advice for initial dosing?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Ok I guess I will give progesterone another try and see if I can push through any initial uncomfortableness.
ecstatichamster do you have any advice for initial dosing?

What I do is this. I try small amounts of something. 5mg say.

Then I might increase it. I might try 25mg or 50 mg for a few days. Then back to 5mg or 10mg. Take it with 5mg or so of DHEA topically.s

I put the DHEA and also K2 MK4 in my palm and then add some Progest-E and Mitolipin from Idealabs and maybe some Tocovit and mix it in the palm and then apply it topically.

 

[oldfriend]

K, well I have Pansterone and Progestene. So maybe I will try 4 drops of each for a couple weeks.

 

[oldfriend]

Jesus, I was in agony all day yesterday. Progesterone readily converts to adrenaline at a dose of ~5mg (progestene paired w/ 5mg pansterone). I felt OK for the first few days, but starting yesterday it seemed like I couldn't do anything to curb the adrenaline reaction. I can still feel the effects today. The only time I've felt like that was when I was talking a herbal adrenal support supplement. What gives?

 

[Ihor]

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[Ihor]

Progesterone caused me symptoms too. But I persevered when I found out it flushes estradiol out of cells. Once you get over that, it’s fantastic.

Are you sure it was caused by the displacement of estrogen by progesterone? What symptoms did you have and how long did they last? Also in this particular situation, what dose of progesterone did you use and for how long?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Are you sure it was caused by the displacement of estrogen by progesterone? What symptoms did you have and how long did they last? Also in this particular situation, what dose of progesterone did you use and for how long?

I am pretty sure. Since I got over that I haven’t had any similar issue since then it’s been several years. I think I needed to initially flush the estrogen for my cells. Now that that’s done, no problems.