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How To Reverse Soft Tissue Calcification

Discussion in 'Diet' started by topdog82, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. topdog82

    topdog82 Member

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    I over supplemented with vitamin d3, vitamin a and calcium citrate (did not know any better. in hindsight, not a smart idea)

    I stopped because I was feeling incredibly shitty. After I stopped, I had strange muscle spasms and twitches etc. on and off for a period of months. I tried magnesium oil spray and noticed a huge difference immediately. this indicated that I was magnesium deficient. not only that, but my muscles went from stiff to more fluid. I concluded that calcium had locked into my soft tissues

    I looked up some stuff online and have added vitamin k2 (natto daily, tons of grass fed meats), magnesium oil (twice a day 20 sprays), and apple cider vinegar (16 tablespoons, thats a lot) to my daily routine. I also take a small 1k iu d3 and 100mcg k2 mk7 tablet in the morning

    Does anyone have any suggestion on how to speed up recovery from arterial calcification? So far what I have been doing has been working. I have been adding in mk4 daily as well but it makes me really tired and dizzy for some reason. Any other ideas?
     
  2. Bobber Anderson

    Bobber Anderson Member

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    What amounts were you doing for calcium, d3 and A?
     
  3. theLaw

    theLaw Member

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  4. OP
    topdog82

    topdog82 Member

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    Super interesting^. I didn't know that. My main concern is that I got into this position by taking supplements that were not needed. I will consider cyproheptadine...

    Stupidly I took 10k retinol I believe, 1 gram of calcium, and 10k iu d3. I think that it is just best to get these from whole food. I detoxed with taurine. I believe it was over the course of 3-6 months
     
  5. Luckytype

    Luckytype Member

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    Out of curiosity @topdog82 how long were you doing those vitamin protocols before switching them when you started feeling crappy?
     
  6. x-ray peat

    x-ray peat Member

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    also curious what amounts you were taking of each.

    as far as decalcification, Ive heard distilled water can pull out excess minerals but come to think about it, that doesnt make too much sense as water doesnt have a high mineral solubility to begin with. K2 and Magnesium sounds good. Serrapeptase has been used to reverse arterial plaque.
     
  7. Glassy

    Glassy Member

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    Muscle spasms indicate magnesium deficiency (which you picked up).

    I’m a little confused how you concluded that you had calcified sof tissues though.

    I think supplementing mk4 and d3 is a pretty good move for most people but I’m interested to know why you went with mk7 as well as the natto (also high in mk7 from memory). Pretty sure mk7 has a much longer half life than mk4 too.

    My guess is that you probably haven’t done much damage and that it will fix itself in time. If you’re under 40 I’d probably just relax on the supplements for a while. What’s your salt intake like? How’s your blood sugar when you take the mk4?
     
  8. Lee Simeon

    Lee Simeon Member

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    I thought Vitamin A would prevent the calcification effects from Vitamin D
     
  9. LucH

    LucH Member

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    Ca is going to deposit on artery walls and muscles without adequate levels of vitamin K2.
    Source: Kate Rhéaume. Vitamin K2 and the calcium paradox.
    See also this link if you want to go deeper (in French, with excerpts in English)
    Vitamine K2 et le Paradoxe du Calcium

    Calcium expels magnesium. Ok, but prevention is the magic square: Ca / Mg and Na / K. Let's not forget the potassium. This is the key element. Mg acts and calms in case of stress / cramp; in a hurry, to fill a gap. Watch for the intake of K via fruits and especially vegetables. and take a bone broth, too (gaba-like effect).

    Note on potassium:
    Potassium is the key nutrient to regulate cell respiration, membrane fluidity (edema and heavy legs) and maintenance of muscle integrity (tonicity and engorgement of the place by lactic acid), as well as good conductivity. It's not just chemistry!
    Demonstration: Potassium should be used for prevention, magnesium in case of crisis (to reduce spasm / cramp). And if you stress, there is no need to anticipate, with a magnesium supplement, if you're not already in deficit. Do it at posteriori: take Mg after the crisis. Ca chases Mg off, in case of stress, among others.
    The ideal ratio inside the cell is 38/1 for K + / Na +. Most of the potassium is inside the cell. Sodium is rather outside the cell.
    But every time you go ingesting excess salt, by withdrawing from your potassium reserves, you will disrupt this relationship. For 2 molecules getting sodium into the cell, 3 molecules of potassium will come out. The metabolism will then rectify the potential differential (electrical charge) with an H + ion. And it is thus that the buffer system intervenes: a K + ion is driven by an H + ion, in case of potassium deficiency combined with excess sodium.

    Retinol will soothe the excess, but you need a key to open the door.
    Vitamin D3, assisted by vitamin A (retinol), stimulates the production of osteocalcin, and K2 activates it.
    Recall : Osteocalcin is essentially synthesized by osteoblasts, cells responsible for bone formation. But in order to fully fix calcium, osteocalcin needs to be activated by vitamin K to play its full role. This activation is called "carboxylation" because a carboxyl group is added to the molecule. Without sufficient vitamin K2, much of osteocalcin remains unused and therefore, it is less calcium that will be fixed on to the bones. It will walk around where it is not needed (arteries and soft tissues).
    LucH
     
  10. fradon

    fradon Member

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    sunlight will do it...i suppose some vitamin d without calcium can do it too. magnesium can also dissolve calcium, and perhaps even vitamin C. soda pop and coffee also cause the body to dump calcium. I was just on a website yesterday reading about arterial calcification and scurvy (vitamin c deficiency) by adding more vitamin C they were able to remove bad calcium deposits.

    Osteoporosis Is Scurvy of the Bone, Not Calcium Deficiency
     
  11. OP
    topdog82

    topdog82 Member

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    so theres a lot of solid replies on this. thanks. This is why I love this forum. I think people read my original post but missed my reply where I gave details:
    "Stupidly I took 10k retinol I believe, 1 gram of calcium, and 10k iu d3. I think that it is just best to get these from whole food. I detoxed with taurine. I believe it was over the course of 3-6 months"

    In case anyone missed it, that was the timeline and dosing protocol. I began feeling really shitty but never connected the two. once I stopped I felt shitty. I took taurine as I suspected vitamin A toxicity. presto! just like that I began to feel better immediately. About 2mg of taurine I believe? I still feel depressed and my muscles felt stiff. brain fog and muscles spasms. tons of anxiety

    And you guys are fair to question that it is calcification specifically that was causing problems. But what happened was I supplemented mag oil and immediately, over 1-2 days, my muscles began to become much more elastic and less twitchy. Afterwards, I began eating more k2 in my diet. And my muscles became more elastic. less twitching. the effect was near dramatic over the course of 1-2 days. And it continued to improve over the course of 1-2 weeks. everyday that I ate natto, there was a huge boost in energy, mood etc. Not only that, but I got a huge increase in elasticity of my muscles etc. In addition, when I started apple cider vinegar, I could "feel" my muscles reducing in stiffness. Its hard to just put weight on my anecdotes like that, but having such a dramatic effect from each of these leads me to conclude that soft tissue calcification is the answer
    These three things are what was suggested by dr berg for soft tissue calcification. Dr Berg also suggests fish oil and increasing omega 3 intake. I am not 100% sure where this forum/peat stands on that, but (please correct me if I am wrong) that is something to be avoided

    As for what glassy said, most of the users on this forum seem to value mk4 over mk7. mk4 gave me side effects in supplement form. tired, foggy, and dizzy. It "feels" artificial. I will toy with it later (maybe this is all just placebo?). But the natto has a high concentration of mk7. Something like 500-600 mcg or something of this nature? It had a very noticeable effect immediately and I believe thats because I believe that it is because it builds up in the bloodstream much easier. I stuck with mk7 and d3 supplement at first because I was under the idea that mk7 was better. After finding on this forum and elsewhere online that mk4 was more "natural" I tried it and sadly had side effects. Hence I stuck with 1k iu's of d3 and 100mcg mk7 supplement and daily natto consumption. I eat grass fed butter/ghee as well as grass fed beef. I may add in goat brie and cow brie as these are high in mk4 and taste great. natural mk4 does not give me these nasty side effects

    As glassy said, I should just relax on the supplements. I agree. 100%. I lacked proper understanding and info about supplementation hence I made poor choices. I have to live with that. my body is getting better everyday. But this soft tissue calcification makes my mood very low etc. I was recovering from a horrible severe depression and attachment to a negative life event. I was working with mental health professionals and making steady progress. I was set to come to a point of complete resolve. thats when all this nonsense happened. And as such, this calcification keeps me in a low mood and unable to move forward and fully recover from my mental health. There is one last stretch and my arterial calcification is the last hump. the faster I get this solved, the sooner I can fully recover. Once I do I will write a little report on this forum somewhere (that mental health pit goes deep). I am much better, but there is a slight 10% left that I can't push past till the arterial calcification comes to a halt

    Lastly, I did not know that vitamin c helps arterial calcification. I drink black coffee in the morning usually. What are some good fruits for vitamin C? I was going to add orange juice into my diet soon. Any other ones? I may do more kiwis etc. I am going to just google it and go to the local market and get the highest vitamin c fruits later. Eat them at work etc.
     
  12. Glassy

    Glassy Member

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    I take ideal labs kuinone mk4 applied topically. There are a lot of really crappy mk4 supplements out there, but ideal labs, health natura and Thorne all seem to have a decent one. About 5 years ago I ate natto regularly and although I got used to and enjoyed the taste/texture, it seemed to be an expensive way to supplement vit k and I didn’t like all the little frozen packets. I looked into making it but it seemed a bit too difficult and I wasn’t a fan of eating soy. I don’t think it’s bad, I was more interested in why you chose it (which you’ve explained). I think most humans have calcium stored in inappropriate places and that it can take a while for it to be relocated. I’ve not supplemented calcium yet although I’ve looked at getting some ground egg shell powder now that I’m supplementing d3 & k2.

    I think fruits would be the best way to get vitamin c or at least an extract of fruits (eg acerola, camu camu). Fruits also have other nutrients (including potassium which can help with dizziness along with table salt) and sugars which are also pretty awesome. I would also just try to see what fresh fruits are available in your area - I tend to eat fruit seasonally but I’m a bit spoilt living in the subtropics.

    Luch’s post illustrates how balance is critical. Your body does well at this under normal circumstances but supplementing isolated nutrients can put a big load on these balancing activities (particularly with some vitamins).

    I’d be interested to hear @LucH‘s take on using something like KCl (eg lite salt) to supplement potassium (K). I’ve had a high salt intake for the last 5 years liberally applying it to most savoury/meat dishes. I eat bone broth a few times per week which is also heavily salted (home made). I know K is important and that I’m probably not getting as much as I should. I’ve not heard Peat talk about limiting salt intake though, if anything he’s recommended adding it (but I suspect this is more for people who have been restricting salt).
     
  13. mmb82

    mmb82 Member

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    If you really think you messed yourself up, it may be worth it to pay the extra money to work with someone who can give you specific doses of specific supplements based on blood and/or other tests. That said...

    Some things that can help dump extra calcium include: exercise/general movement, reducing/avoiding dairy (and calcium supplements), reducing/avoiding nightshades, avoiding vitamin D supplements and fortified foods, getting some sunlight (not excessive amounts), and sweating, but only if you can replenish the sodium, potassium, and magnesium you lose from sweat.

    The vitamin K2 will be helpful to move extra calcium out of the soft tissues and into places where it should be. However, as you dump extra calcium that you don't need, you might notice weird things like blood sugar episodes, low thyroid-like symptoms, weird digestion, and cramps. As others have suggested, Mg, potassium, and vitamin C will help to ditch the extra calcium or alleviate some of the symptoms you may experience as you get rid of the calcium. Another two nutrients that can help are vitamin E and Boron. If you take a Boron supplement, I would not do more than 3 mg a day and once you finish the bottle, don't buy more; just stop taking it.

    Mg (topical), potassium (from food), vitamin C (ascorbic acid, 3-10 g if you can tolerate that high), and vitamin E can likely be taken long-term, but I would not overdo the vitamin E since it is also a fat soluble. I think around 400 IU daily should be safe. Potassium should be easy to get on a Peat-inspired diet...bananas, mangoes, dates, orange juice, coconut water, and other fruits are fairly high in potassium. Getting around 5000 mg daily should be an achievable goal. Topical Mg should be applied generously, especially if you notice positive effects from it.
     
  14. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    a,d,k2, like estroban

    magnesium oil

    celery juice soup, just juice celery and boil it. add gelatin powder

    gelatin powder also dissolves calcium because of glycine , amino-acetic acid. Glycine and apple cider vinegar have the same structure and even the same scientific name
     
  15. OP
    topdog82

    topdog82 Member

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    I was busy this week and just got around to replying/reading these

    And yes, I learnt the hard way. it is much better to supplement spot nutrients that you are deficient in that just machine gun/spray and pray supplement vitamins. Spot vitamins and minerals may need small dose supplementation. One should take the minimal dose and only do so if blood tests reveal issues. I learnt all this the long and roundabout anecdotal way

    A quick update; since upping my ACV intake I have been steadily improving. There have been entire days I don't have muscle spasms. and my workouts are better as my muscles are more pliable. I have been doing magnesium oil, eating natto daily, taking d3/k2-mk7, and drinking 1 whole cup of ACV. for those of you who haven't tried that, thats 16 tablespoons of the stuff. It tastes horrible but it changes your blood ph and helps release this calcium

    I think each one of these tools on their own don't do the trick. it is all of them in conjunction that really worked a synergy. I will stick to this routine till my mood completely lifts and my muscle spasms come to a complete resolve. both natto and ACV are gross. But I feel good and my mental health issues are seriously improving. I may just stick to this for 2-3 months to be safe and get every little sliver of calcium out of my body to be safe. but the massive increase in ACV intake really was the kicker

    I was frustrated with mk4 giving me side effects because it supposedly hits the smaller tissues of the body. I hoped it would pull calcium out of my brain and tissues etc. better than mk7. But ACV quite literally changes your blood pH. as such, I think it is able to hit the smaller tissues. every cell in your body utilizes blood so it gets hit quickly and effectively

    Keep in mind this is just my theory. but its working. so this is my best guess

    I also have been cleaning up my diet and making it more peaty. that has been working nicely

    Thanks for the support!
     
  16. mmb82

    mmb82 Member

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    Out of curiosity, how are you taking the ACV? Aside from diluting it in water, are you doing multiple doses of 2-3 Tbsp or are you just doing one huge dose?
    Also, I would suggest dropping the D3/K2-mk7 supplement you are taking and getting pure K2. Vitamin D increases calcium absorption, so if you are trying to get rid of calcium, it could potentially be detrimental to your efforts.
     
  17. OP
    topdog82

    topdog82 Member

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    My d3 levels could be lower as I work a desk job and am indoors/fairly inactive. I took/take the d3 due to the fact that getting your d3 levels up actually decrease/reverse calcification. On the flipside here, too much d3 has the opposite effect. So maybe let me dig into that. the information here would be mixed. in addition, its a low dose. the most d3 I think you can absorb naturally would be 4k iu's? so 1k is "safe" to me. but you brought up a good point. I will actually consider cutting it. I need to actualyl get my d3 levels tested

    And lastly the other poster reccomended cutting dairy out. I will do that temporarily. And have been. I have the odd bit of cheese on the weekends. But for now, no alcohol, no dairy. pretty boring diet

    and lastly, I am doing 1/2 cup of ACV in 24 fl oz of water. I drink that in the morning before work/shower. Within an hour of waking usually

    And in the mid morning (around 10-11:30am) I do a second 24 fl oz sipping session at my desk. without proper dilution you can **** up your teeth with ACV

    1 cup is about 16 tablespoons total as a point of reference

    I had a mild tricep spasm this morning but relatively speaking I think I am fine. I really ****88 myself up and I really think I will stick to this regimen for a while. Dramatic improvements which is good news
     
  18. Ulysses

    Ulysses Member

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    On the other hand, if water doesn't have a high mineral solubility to begin with, then drinking mineralized water will make it even more difficult for the body to eliminate excess minerals through the sweat and urine.
     
  19. x-ray peat

    x-ray peat Member

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    no doubt that's true in a relative sense but I was more wondering if it really makes a difference since the mineral content of water is so small relative to the amount of minerals in the foods we eat. For example a typical North East water mineral content is about 10 mg/l (mostly calcium and magnesium) and the total RDA for calcium and magnesium is around 1400 mg. To me it doesn't seem that this 10-20 mg from 1-2 l of water would be that decisive in terms of the mineral makeup of the body relative to what we get from food. It may be different with high mineral content water but still not as important as the minerals from food.

    This of course brings up the whole distilled water debate, where because of its lack of minerals, some think its deadly. I think that's BS and drink distilled exclusively.
     
  20. Ulysses

    Ulysses Member

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    I never thought much of the water pH/mineralization debate until I found the work of L.C. Vincent cited in one of Ray Peat's articles. Are you familiar with it? Here's the relevant paper:

    http://www.vieetaction.org/images/fougerousse/Presentation-BEV-anglais.pdf

    It's quite elegant. Anyways, you will see from his reference table, where he compares the chemical properties of blood, urine, and saliva, that the electrical resistance of bodily fluids, and hence water, can vary dramatically. It's a function not just of dissolved minerals, but of total dissolved solids. He is saying that even municipal water supplies have dissolved solids in sufficient concentrations to cause disease. Not sure how it was in early 20ce Europe, but here in the United States, whenever I test a glass of tap water with my TDS meter, it usually contains somewhere between 50 and 300 parts per million of solids. By comparison, San Pellegrino is usually about 850. My well water growing up was somewhere in the middle, 500-600.
     
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