How To Know What Dose Of Progesterone To Use?

[Evic677]

Hey guys! So I want to start supplementing on progesterone but I am unsure how to manage my dose. Of course, conventional doctors don't recommend doing this. Besides sweet potatoes what else can I consume to increase progesterone?

 

[sele]

You may find answers here.

 

[Tim Lundeen]

Progest-E is the best supplement afaik, you can apply to skin or take orally. Try 1/2 to 3 drops/day, see how you do. It can take several days to see how a dose is affecting you, use libido, erection quality, morning wood, etc as metrics.

 

[Evic677]

Progest-E is the best supplement afaik, you can apply to skin or take orally. Try 1/2 to 3 drops/day, see how you do. It can take several days to see how a dose is affecting you, use libido, erection quality, morning wood, etc as metrics.

Haha, I can't base my improvement off those since, I don't have those parts.

 

[Lecarpetron]

There's an instructions sheet that comes with progest E when you order from Long Natural Health, they (and old Peatarianan thread) recommend very high doses to start, then backing off slowly after a month or two for maintenance dose. Something like 100 mg/day at first, down to 10 mg maintenance.

 

[Evic677]

Whats the risk? Im so scared to mess myself up.

 

[Tim Lundeen]

Progesterone increases GABA and dopamine and makes you feel calm, alert, focused. Everyone does well taking the supplemental progesterone they need, and most people are fine taking even more, but some people do not tolerate excess.

On a short-term basis, too much can make you sleepy, dizzy, or feeling drunk. If you stop, these symptoms will go away quickly, and you can then take a much smaller dose and titrate up.

Some people have paradoxical responses, some of which take longer to show up: anxiety, anger, insomnia, water retention, depression, hot flashes. These will stop when you stop the progesterone, but may take longer to clear.

My experience is that taking DHEA (1-10mg) along with Progest-E (1-3 drops) balances things out and works well. Suggest starting at the low end and titrating up slowly. Hot flashes mean that you need more DHEA.

The good thing is that if you recognize the symptoms, you can stop quickly, and your body will clear the progesterone very quickly. It is important not to let progesterone build up in your fat deposits, though, as that can take a long time to clear. So as long as you use oral Progest-E or apply it to thin skin (inside wrists/ankles), you'll be fine -- if you take too much for you, you can stop and it will clear quickly.

 

[lollipop]

Hot flashes mean that you need more DHEA.

Hi @Tim Lundeen - this is interesting. Can you explain more? I thought hot flashes were too high estrogen.

 

[Kray]

Progesterone increases GABA and dopamine and makes you feel calm, alert, focused. Everyone does well taking the supplemental progesterone they need, and most people are fine taking even more, but some people do not tolerate excess.

On a short-term basis, too much can make you sleepy, dizzy, or feeling drunk. If you stop, these symptoms will go away quickly, and you can then take a much smaller dose and titrate up.

Some people have paradoxical responses, some of which take longer to show up: anxiety, anger, insomnia, water retention, depression, hot flashes. These will stop when you stop the progesterone, but may take longer to clear.

My experience is that taking DHEA (1-10mg) along with Progest-E (1-3 drops) balances things out and works well. Suggest starting at the low end and titrating up slowly. Hot flashes mean that you need more DHEA.

The good thing is that if you recognize the symptoms, you can stop quickly, and your body will clear the progesterone very quickly. It is important not to let progesterone build up in your fat deposits, though, as that can take a long time to clear. So as long as you use oral Progest-E or apply it to thin skin (inside wrists/ankles), you'll be fine -- if you take too much for you, you can stop and it will clear quickly.

@Tim Lundeen: This is great information. Do you take both Progest-E and DHEA regularly? Would you mind giving a snapshot of your dosing schedule, times per day, etc? This would be really helpful as I have recently incorporated progesterone into my man's daily regimen. I have been reading up on progesterone. Quite a few sites recommend ongoing supplementation of progesterone for males (no need to take 'cyclic' breaks as for women).

What made you decide to add progesterone?

 

[Tim Lundeen]

@lisaferraro the claim that low estrogen causes hot flashes and/or night sweats comes from Dr Uzzi Reiss's book "Natural Hormone Balance for Women". He treats them with estrogen+progesterone and they stop. (I think it is better to supplement pregnenolone and/or low-dose DHEA rather than estrogen, so your body can convert as appropriate, but certainly possible some people need estrogen when their conversion pathways are messed up.)

My own (male) experience is that I can induce hot flashes seemingly by reducing estrogen too much. I wake up about 3:30am extremely hot when I take Vit E (TocoVit 100IU oral plus 100+IU transdermal), low-dose Progest-E (1 drop or 3mg), nettle root and just 1mg of DHEA. Increasing DHEA to 5mg and stopping nettle root solves it, I think because the extra DHEA can then be converted as needed to testosterone/estrogen.

So there are other explanations... In Reiss's case, it could be it is the progesterone that is really helpful rather than the estrogen. Some people claim that low progesterone relative to estrogen causes hot flashes; for me that wasn't true because I didn't have them until I added progesterone. For me, it could be that adding progesterone increases cortisol too early causing hot flashes, and DHEA opposes cortisol. Some people say that normal estrogen and low progesterone can cause hot flashes, e.g. that relatively high estrogen can also cause them. It's complicated for sure, and there could be multiple drivers. See Medscape: Medscape Access

@Kray I'm currently taking DHEA 5mg/day split into 3 doses (7am, 2pm, 9pm), 1 drop Progest-E/day half first thing in the morning, half at night, and TocoVit 10 drops split into 3 doses. Also on the skin VitE (tea seed oil 2.5ml which is 10% VitE plus 5 drops TocoVit, apply to face/ankles before a Joovv near-IR session). Plus VitA 15,000IU early, K2 800ug, VitD 4000IE early or sun. Still a work in progress, but seems promising. I'll update when it settles down.

I added progesterone to try to balance the DHEA (taking 10mg pregnenolone caused my estrogen to increase too much relative to testosterone+progesterone); the progesterone is definitely is more potent than just VitE/A/D/K2.

 

[Kray]

@lisaferraro the claim that low estrogen causes hot flashes and/or night sweats comes from Dr Uzzi Reiss's book "Natural Hormone Balance for Women". He treats them with estrogen+progesterone and they stop. (I think it is better to supplement pregnenolone and/or low-dose DHEA rather than estrogen, so your body can convert as appropriate, but certainly possible some people need estrogen when their conversion pathways are messed up.)

My own (male) experience is that I can induce hot flashes seemingly by reducing estrogen too much. I wake up about 3:30am extremely hot when I take Vit E (TocoVit 100IU oral plus 100+IU transdermal), low-dose Progest-E (1 drop or 3mg), nettle root and just 1mg of DHEA. Increasing DHEA to 5mg and stopping nettle root solves it, I think because the extra DHEA can then be converted as needed to testosterone/estrogen.

So there are other explanations... In Reiss's case, it could be it is the progesterone that is really helpful rather than the estrogen. Some people claim that low progesterone relative to estrogen causes hot flashes; for me that wasn't true because I didn't have them until I added progesterone. For me, it could be that adding progesterone increases cortisol too early causing hot flashes, and DHEA opposes cortisol. Some people say that normal estrogen and low progesterone can cause hot flashes, e.g. that relatively high estrogen can also cause them. It's complicated for sure, and there could be multiple drivers. See Medscape: Medscape Access

@Kray I'm currently taking DHEA 5mg/day split into 3 doses (7am, 2pm, 9pm), 1 drop Progest-E/day half first thing in the morning, half at night, and TocoVit 10 drops split into 3 doses. Also on the skin VitE (tea seed oil 2.5ml which is 10% VitE plus 5 drops TocoVit, apply to face/ankles before a Joovv near-IR session). Plus VitA 15,000IU early, K2 800ug, VitD 4000IE early or sun. Still a work in progress, but seems promising. I'll update when it settles down.

I added progesterone to try to balance the DHEA (taking 10mg pregnenolone caused my estrogen to increase too much relative to testosterone+progesterone); the progesterone is definitely is more potent than just VitE/A/D/K2.

@Tim Lundeen Thanks for the details on your routine. Also helpful tips to @lisaferraro. I take it that you are not currently taking pregnenolone, but just Progest-E and DHEA as far as steroids are concerned? No thyroid? I think your doses are very reasonable and prudent; as you say, progesterone is very powerful, which is why some probably do feel 'safer' with pregnenolone. My only problem with that is not really knowing how much (preg) to take for what your individual needs are, how it will convert, etc. At least with low doses of these others you have a pretty good baseline to start from. Keep us posted, I'll do the same.

btw- I have the Reiss book somewhere. I'll have to unpack it and re-read. Would be interesting to see how his positions mesh with where I am now, some 5+years into Peat!

 

[Tim Lundeen]

@Kray not taking pregnenalone, at 10mg/day it raised my estrogen too much relative to test+progest. But I wasn't taking VitE at the time, so perhaps could take preg now.

Also not taking thyroid, it seems to be fine, with good temps, warm extremities, good energy. I am taking 3-4mg/day of Nascent Iodine, 200ug selenium, have very low fluoride intake, and took higher-dose iodine for a while to clear other halides.

Anyway, my wife and I are still trying to figure all this out, these forums are very helpful, thanks!

We came to Ray Peat via Paul-Jaminet-Perfect-Health nutrition so low PUFA, plus low toxins, sunlight, low EMF, good circadian rhythm, movement/HIIT, herb support, mold elimination, heavy metal reduction, all helpful but not enough. We finally realized that hormone balance is the root driver for health. Once you get to that place, RP is extraordinary/invaluable. It seems like you can sometimes restore good hormone balance through diet/nutrition/etc, but it is much easier when you are aware of that foundation and work on hormone balance as the primary focus.

Look forward to your feedback on Reiss

 

[lollipop]

Hi @Tim Lundeen - thank you! Great information and a new direction to explore. Will have a look and study up a bit. Again thank you very much, helpful.

 

[Kray]

@Tim Lundeen Good points on diet and foundation with hormone balance. Have you read Peat's take on iodine? He's not a big fan. Just mentioning it in case you want to check it out.

Thanks again for your input, the forum is a great place to share and learn!

 

[Tim Lundeen]

@Kray thanks for the info, I've reduced my iodine to 1.6mg. Also implementing some of Peat's recommendations about using sugar and calcium to lower cortisol: coffee plus honey instead of black, more fructose with glucose/protein, and having calcium along with fructose. (Using honey/maple syrup instead of sugar.) So far really like it...

 

[Kray]

@Kray thanks for the info, I've reduced my iodine to 1.6mg. Also implementing some of Peat's recommendations about using sugar and calcium to lower cortisol: coffee plus honey instead of black, more fructose with glucose/protein, and having calcium along with fructose. (Using honey/maple syrup instead of sugar.) So far really like it...

@Tim Lundeen: Good to hear. Thanks for sharing-- hope your changes bring more and more positive results!

 

[LUH 3417]

Progesterone increases GABA and dopamine and makes you feel calm, alert, focused. Everyone does well taking the supplemental progesterone they need, and most people are fine taking even more, but some people do not tolerate excess.

On a short-term basis, too much can make you sleepy, dizzy, or feeling drunk. If you stop, these symptoms will go away quickly, and you can then take a much smaller dose and titrate up.

Some people have paradoxical responses, some of which take longer to show up: anxiety, anger, insomnia, water retention, depression, hot flashes. These will stop when you stop the progesterone, but may take longer to clear.

My experience is that taking DHEA (1-10mg) along with Progest-E (1-3 drops) balances things out and works well. Suggest starting at the low end and titrating up slowly. Hot flashes mean that you need more DHEA.

The good thing is that if you recognize the symptoms, you can stop quickly, and your body will clear the progesterone very quickly. It is important not to let progesterone build up in your fat deposits, though, as that can take a long time to clear. So as long as you use oral Progest-E or apply it to thin skin (inside wrists/ankles), you'll be fine -- if you take too much for you, you can stop and it will clear quickly.

I have a very negative response to progestE. i become severely emotional on it. Do you know why this is? Seems like every post is about it doing the exact opposite.

 

[Atalanta]

I have a very negative response to progestE. i become severely emotional on it. Do you know why this is? Seems like every post is about it doing the exact opposite.

According to Peat, progesterone stimulates estrogen receptors and forces estrogen out of the cells. In order to counter this, it is recommended that a person use very high doses of progesterone to start, in order to drive out the estrogen.

I did not get good results with progesterone in spite of following Peat's recommendations. I got terrible PMS symptoms that never went away, even after months of very high doses of Progest-E. Adding pregnenolone did not help and I got terrible acne from it. Additional Vitamin E and aspirin(supposed aromatase inhibitors) also did not help. Eventually I stopped the progesterone and all the other supplements. People here seem so certain that progesterone and pregnenolne are completely harmless but that has not been my experience.

There have been reports of women growing facial hair after taking DHEA and pregnenolone. These are precursors to testosterone so there is no guarantee that they won't be converted to testosterone.

I think some people should question whether excess estrogen is the cause of their health problems.

 

[schultz]

According to Peat, progesterone stimulates estrogen receptors and forces estrogen out of the cells. In order to counter this, it is recommended that a person use very high doses of progesterone to start, in order to drive out the estrogen.

I did not get good results with progesterone in spite of following Peat's recommendations. I got terrible PMS symptoms that never went away, even after months of very high doses of Progest-E. Adding pregnenolone did not help and I got terrible acne from it. Additional Vitamin E and aspirin(supposed aromatase inhibitors) also did not help. Eventually I stopped the progesterone and all the other supplements. People here seem so certain that progesterone and pregnenolne are completely harmless but that has not been my experience.

There have been reports of women growing facial hair after taking DHEA and pregnenolone. These are precursors to testosterone so there is no guarantee that they won't be converted to testosterone.

I think some people should question whether excess estrogen is the cause of their health problems.

Maybe your nutrition was inadequate? Did you track your nutrition when you were doing this experiment?

 

[Tim Lundeen]

I have a very negative response to progestE. i become severely emotional on it. Do you know why this is? Seems like every post is about it doing the exact opposite.

Apparently progesterone stimulates the GABAa1 receptor, and Dr Fredrick Von Stieff says that overstimulation can cause this receptor system to downregulate and become ineffective. When GABAa1 is not working, then the glutamate system is unopposed, and you get agitated/angry, perhaps psychotic. His treatment protocols don't use GABAa1 for that reason. (See his book Brain Balance Brain In Balance: Understanding the Genetics and Neurochemistry Behind Addiction and Sobriety: Fredrick Von Stieff M.D., Katie Schuh Juarez: 9781475045673: Amazon.com: Books -- A helpful book, even if his treatment program is based on pharmaceutical drugs.)

To help recover, you can take magnesium and up to 15mg/day of zinc, which both block the NMDA receptor activated by glutamate. Vitamin E mixed tocopherals also helps calm down the cells; gamma tocopheral blocks the inflammation caused by excessive glutamate, and alpha tocopheral opposeds estrogen so that will help calm things down too. Folinic acid (e.g. calcium folinate instead of activate folate) also helps. I've seen all of these help someone.

Ray Peat's protocols for increasing cellular energy should also help (e.g. caffeine, asprin, sugar with enough calcium to prevent parathyroid increase), because they increase cellular energy, which should help damp down the inflammation -- but I didn't know about these the last time it would have been relevant, so can't say for sure.