How to increase dopamine and lower serotonin with this simple, yet effective stack and food recipe

[Hans]

So you don't think ashwagandha usage can cause increased serotonin/pssd? Research on this isn't clear to me.

Which research? Lokzo's research/anecdote? He was unfortunate to get symptoms from it and now a lot of people are getting placebo-ed into getting sexual dysfunction from Ashwagandha. Ashwagandha can increase both serotonin and dopamine. Lokzo has used/is using many other pro-serotonin compounds (e.g. oleamide) without it causing him PSSD or worsening his PSSD.
If you look at the research, Ashwagandha has always been used as an aphrodisiac and studies show that it can improve sexual function. I haven't noticed any side effects myself. Also, not everyone responds well to Ashwagandha (and this is the case with every supplement out there) as there are also different kinds of Ashwagandha extracts. I've used a few different extracts in the past and am I'm currently using the KSM-66 extract at 600mg daily. After this one, I want to try the full spectrum extract. It's already in my pre-workout, but I want to experiment with it in isolation.

 

[Hedgehog]

Which research? Lokzo's research/anecdote? He was unfortunate to get symptoms from it and now a lot of people are getting placebo-ed into getting sexual dysfunction from Ashwagandha.

This statement is just ignorant and wrong. In my case I noticed very strange effects from KSM-66 without having read about people having negative effects from it at all and then while doing research on it having potentially severe sexual side effects I found out about Lokzo having very similar issues which he also attributed to it. Not the other way around.

I have used "normal" Ashwagandha before KSM-66 and while it was maybe very slightly numbing it was nothing compared to KSM-66. KSM-66 must have a unique composition which is clearly very debilitating to at very least some people. If you don't get negative effects from it, that's cool, but don't pretend like people are imagining things.

Furthermore, the manufacturer of KSM-66 also has conducted a lot of those studies on the effectiveness of Ash. Make of that what you will. In my opinion KSM-66 is a very fishy extract and I would advise everyone against using it. If you want to use Ashwagandha, a normal extract is definitely the smarter choice.

 

[Hans]

This statement is just ignorant and wrong. In my case I noticed very strange effects from KSM-66 without having read about people having negative effects from it at all and then while doing research on it having potentially severe sexual side effects I found out about Lokzo having very similar issues which he also attributed to it. Not the other way around.

I have used "normal" Ashwagandha before KSM-66 and while it was maybe very slightly numbing it was nothing compared to KSM-66. KSM-66 must have a unique composition which is clearly very debilitating to at very least some people. If you don't get negative effects from it, that's cool, but don't pretend like people are imagining things.

Furthermore, the manufacturer of KSM-66 also has conducted a lot of those studies on the effectiveness of Ash. Make of that what you will. In my opinion KSM-66 is a very fishy extract and I would advise everyone against using it. If you want to use Ashwagandha, a normal extract is definitely the smarter choice.

I quote myself again: "not everyone responds well to Ashwagandha (and this is the case with every supplement out there)". I didn't say no one gets a negative response from Ashwagandha, neither did I recommend people use the KSM-66 extract or say that it's the one specifically used as an aphrodisiac. I also said, "a lot of people" get placebo-ed, not everyone.
If anyone gets any side effects from any supplement, it's best to stop using it. But as you mentioned, normal ashwagandha didn't give you the same effects; people should keep that in mind as many kinds of supplements have different extracts and different effects on different people.

My point is that demonizing ashwagandha as a whole (regarding sexual function) is not the smart thing to do. For example, many people get "side effects" from something like B1, caffeine, thyroid, etc., etc. but that doesn't mean those compounds should not be used... it just means that that person should be using it differently (for example - a different form/extract, along with other compounds, in smaller doses, etc.).

 

[Hedgehog]

Where is the evidence for "a lot of people are getting placebo-d" though? It sounds like Lokzo talking about it is what's causing the issues in people or make them wrongly attribute it to Ash, but what's more realistically happening is that people are noticing they're suddenly having sexual side symptoms and anhedonia and reflecting on what could have caused it, researching about it online. Then they find him talking about it, look back and see "Oh, actually when I started ash it went downhill" as an example. I really don't think it's realistic to think that people are being "placebo-d" into it at all, especially when it's about mechanical things and not only things like libido or mood.

You make it sound like Ashwagandha is just like any other supplement, but the reality is that it's a supplement where a lot of people are noticing bad results from it. A lot more than in other herbs. With normal ash extracts it's negative effects are rather sluggish in comparison and take longer to manifest, but I think it's also responsible for a lot of anhedonia and sexual side effects. It's a bit similar to oversupplementing zinc from what I've gathered from multiple people talking about it. I couldn't care less about a study sponsored and paid for by the literal same company who has created the KSM-66 "formula" showing a decrease in cortisol. No ***t, thanks, I needed more research on that, because that wasn't already known for ages.

 

[Hans]

Where is the evidence for "a lot of people are getting placebo-d" though? It sounds like Lokzo talking about it is what's causing the issues in people or make them wrongly attribute it to Ash, but what's more realistically happening is that people are noticing they're suddenly having sexual side symptoms and anhedonia and reflecting on what could have caused it, researching about it online. Then they find him talking about it, look back and see "Oh, actually when I started ash it went downhill" as an example. I really don't think it's realistic to think that people are being "placebo-d" into it at all, especially when it's about mechanical things and not only things like libido or mood.

I've been working with men with countless health issues (including sexual problems) for the past 6 years now and I've also been recommending many supplements and herbs (with ashwagandha being one of them). I've never had a client report side effects (regarding sexual function) from using ashwagandha, and I've also had many clients who had already been using ashwagandha for quite a few years, without experiencing any sexual problems at all. Quite to the contrary, as I mentioned before, ashwagandha has been used as an aphrodisiac since many centuries ago.

But I digress, no one has ever contacted me before to help them with sexual issues related to using ashwagandha...that is until more recently when a few members (from this forum) contacted me to help them with this problem after being made aware of the "risks". However, after looking at their diets, supplementations (as well as other drug uses for sexual performance) and lifestyle, it was quite clear that their problem originated from multiple other places and not because of the use of ashwagandha.

also, how would someone know they were getting a placebo effect or not? That's the whole point of the placebo effect.

You make it sound like Ashwagandha is just like any other supplement, but the reality is that it's a supplement where a lot of people are noticing bad results from it. A lot more than in other herbs. With normal ash extracts it's negative effects are rather sluggish in comparison and take longer to manifest, but I think it's also responsible for a lot of anhedonia and sexual side effects. It's a bit similar to oversupplementing zinc from what I've gathered from multiple people talking about it. I couldn't care less about a study sponsored and paid for by the literal same company who has created the KSM-66 "formula" showing a decrease in cortisol. No ***t, thanks, I needed more research on that, because that wasn't already known for ages.

Ashwagandha is just like any other herbal supplement and is not a drug such as finasteride. The sides of herbal supplements go away almost immediately after stopping, unlike with drugs that can take years to recover from.

It's more like a perception of reality to some people (mainly on this forum) that ashwagandha causes sexual dysfunction and anhedonia but in reality, ashwagandha has been used for many centuries (as an aphrodisiac) without any such known or reported side effects.
Also, the full spectrum extract also lowers cortisol (R). There's a reason why it's an adaptogen.

Another important thing to keep in mind is that, most men who use ashwagandha, use it for it's aphrodisiac benefitis, which means, they have most likely experimented with, or are still experimenting with, other aphrodisiacs or drugs to enhance sexual performance. That's why it's very inaccurate to blame the sides on ashwagandha. No man has ever Just used ashwagandha as an aphrodisiac, and very few men Only use ashwagandha while trying to enhance sexual performance, so how would they know ashwagandha is to blame?

Question for you; do you still have sexual problems even after stopping Ash for a long time, or do you have persistent sides from it?

 

[Hedgehog]

Ashwagandha is just like any other herbal supplement and is not a drug such as finasteride. The sides of herbal supplements go away almost immediately after stopping, unlike with drugs that can take years to recover from.

That's just wrong. Saw Palmetto is a prime example of a herbal supplement where many people have PFS-similar issues with very long-lasting (if not permanent) side effects. Only because something is herbal doesn't mean that you can't get long-lasting side effects from it. It blows my mind I have to explain that to you. The risk is obviously higher for that to happen, but it's not black and white. Furthermore, the KSM-66 extract is created by Ixoreal Biomed and their process of creation is not 100% transparent and is shady IMO. It's not normal ashwagandha.

It's more like a perception of reality to some people (mainly on this forum) that ashwagandha causes sexual dysfunction and anhedonia but in reality, ashwagandha has been used for many centuries (as an aphrodisiac) without any such known or reported side effects.

This argument is just useless. Only because it has been used in Ayurvedic medicine for a very long time doesn't mean that it's bulletproof and can not cause any issues whatsoever. There's many people reporting side effects from it, anhedonia especially, even before Lokzo made a video about it and wrote an article on it.

Another important thing to keep in mind is that, most men who use ashwagandha, use it for it's aphrodisiac benefitis, which means, they have most likely experimented with, or are still experimenting with, other aphrodisiacs or drugs to enhance sexual performance. That's why it's very inaccurate to blame the sides on ashwagandha. No man has ever Just used ashwagandha as an aphrodisiac, and very few men Only use ashwagandha while trying to enhance sexual performance, so how would they know ashwagandha is to blame?

That's actually a fair and accurate point. Many people interested in androgenic and anti-stress supplements (I took it for that reason) take not only one but multiple things. I can't speak for others, but from my experience that it is the one or at least partly to blame though, as right as I introduced it I noticed very strange side effects later on that very same day. And the other things I took I've used for longer already. So it's either KSM-66 exclusively to blame or the combination of it with other things.

Question for you; do you still have sexual problems even after stopping Ash for a long time, or do you have persistent sides from it?

Nope, I've resolved them a long time ago, but I still need to avoid certain foods. Foods which didn't cause me any issues prior. However, it took me multiple months to fix it.

 

[Hans]

That's just wrong. That's just wrong. Saw Palmetto is a prime example of a herbal supplement where many people have PFS-similar issues with very long-lasting (if not permanent) side effects.

Thinking that Ashwagandha is worse than other supplements is only your perspective/opinion. It's not fact. There is no proof whatsoever that it has a higher risk than other herbal supplements.

Yes, Saw Palmetto is a prime example of a herbal supplement that men use to aid in multiple things such as, hair regrowth, prostate health, increasing T, etc. However, most men are very misinformed about Saw Palmetto and think that lowering DHT is a good idea.
Most men who use Saw Palmetto already have lots of underlying health problems and they don't Only use Saw Palmetto to try and fix these problems.
If your health is already busy declining by about 2% per year and you use saw palmetto for 5 years, after 5 years you'll be 10% worse off than when you started.
This can make anyone think that Saw Palmetto made them worse.

Ashwagandha, on the other hand, doesn't lower DHT or dopamine. Anhedonia is caused by low dopamine, glutamate and opioids and a skewed ratio between dopamine and serotonin. Most SSRI drugs increase only serotonin (and not dopamine) and that's how they can cause anhedonia. Ashwagandha increases both dopamine and serotonin. But many other things also increase serotonin, such as vitamin D, etc. Again, vitamin D increases both serotonin and dopamine, similar to Ashwagandha.

Only because something is herbal doesn't mean that you can't get long-lasting side effects from it. It blows my mind I have to explain that to you.

Based on countless studies and anecdotal evidence (including that from my own clients and my own experience), it's quite evident that the sides of herbal supplements go away much faster than that of drugs. However, some people can be the exception (just like with anything). This all depends on their state of health (before and while using the supplement), how long they used the supplement, what other supplements and drugs they've been using that could either worsen and/or make them sensitive to a certain herbal extract.

Furthermore, the KSM-66 extract is created by Ixoreal Biomed and their process of creation is not 100% transparent and is shady IMO. It's not normal ashwagandha.

Don't quite get why you're stuck at the KSM-66 extract. I wasn't defending it or recommending it.
If anyone is planning on experimenting with ashwagandha, I would rather recommend trying the full-spectrum extract (as I would with most other herbs), as it's more "natural/whole".

Only because it has been used in Ayurvedic medicine for a very long time doesn't mean that it's bulletproof and can not cause any issues whatsoever.

I never said it was "bulletproof". Just like all other supplements aren't. I can understand that you have a negative emotional connection to Ashwagandha because of your bad experience with it, but it's better not to allow something like that to cloud one's judgement and turn a discussion like this into an emotional and irrational argument.

I've had my own "negative" experiences with certain supplements here and there, and I can openly mention it, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to tell other people to stay away from it or try to give it a bad name. Those very same supplements work great for most other people, and if I can see that a client of mine will do great on it (based on tests, where his hormones and neurotransmitters are at, his diet, previous uses and responses to other supplements/herbs/drugs, etc.) then I can, by all means, recommend those supplements to him because chances are quite big that he's going to respond well to those supplements. And in "worse case scenario" if he doesn't, I just recommend stopping the suppelemnt/s and trying something else.

There's many people reporting side effects from it, anhedonia especially, even before Lokzo made a video about it and wrote an article on it.

People get side effects with thyroid, coffee, niacin, niacinamide, progesterone, vitamin D, calcium, etc, etc, etc. ashwagandha is no different. And I say that because I know it's a very beneficial supplement (unlike Saw Palmetto). But people need to be more sensitive and cautious when experimenting with supplements/herbs and most of all, drugs because sooner or later they're not going to know what is causing what side effects until they read about other people's experiences and then they're going to blame it on the wrong thing because their symptoms "match up".

If someone claims that ashwagandha gave them sexual and anhedonic problems but they've actually experimented with countless other herbs, supplements and drugs, to try and fix a problem that was already there, then they can't blame it on one herb. Even if you experiment with a herbal supplement, such as ashwagandha, on its own, every extract works through different mechanisms and if you don't know where your hormones and neurotransmitters are (at that time before experimenting), and you still have other supplements and drugs in your system, chances are, you're not going to get a "clean" ashwagandha effect, and sides will occur if you're using an extract that could lower what is already low and increase what is already high.

But this is true for most herbal supplements... the more people experiment with unnatural things (especially aphrodisiacs/sexual enhancing substances), the more likely they are to get sides, not only eventually from the unnatural substances but also from the herbal supplements because their hormones and neurotransmitters are already unstable.

 

[Hedgehog]

Thinking that Ashwagandha is worse than other supplements is only your perspective/opinion. It's not fact. There is no proof whatsoever that it has a higher risk than other herbal supplements.

Yes, Saw Palmetto is a prime example of a herbal supplement that men use to aid in multiple things such as, hair regrowth, prostate health, increasing T, etc. However, most men are very misinformed about Saw Palmetto and think that lowering DHT is a good idea.
Most men who use Saw Palmetto already have lots of underlying health problems and they don't Only use Saw Palmetto to try and fix these problems.
If your health is already busy declining by about 2% per year and you use saw palmetto for 5 years, after 5 years you'll be 10% worse off than when you started.
This can make anyone think that Saw Palmetto made them worse.

Ashwagandha, on the other hand, doesn't lower DHT or dopamine. Anhedonia is caused by low dopamine, glutamate and opioids and a skewed ratio between dopamine and serotonin. Most SSRI drugs increase only serotonin (and not dopamine) and that's how they can cause anhedonia. Ashwagandha increases both dopamine and serotonin. But many other things also increase serotonin, such as vitamin D, etc. Again, vitamin D increases both serotonin and dopamine, similar to Ashwagandha.


Based on countless studies and anecdotal evidence (including that from my own clients and my own experience), it's quite evident that the sides of herbal supplements go away much faster than that of drugs. However, some people can be the exception (just like with anything). This all depends on their state of health (before and while using the supplement), how long they used the supplement, what other supplements and drugs they've been using that could either worsen and/or make them sensitive to a certain herbal extract.

Don't quite get why you're stuck at the KSM-66 extract. I wasn't defending it or recommending it.
If anyone is planning on experimenting with ashwagandha, I would rather recommend trying the full-spectrum extract (as I would with most other herbs), as it's more "natural/whole".


I never said it was "bulletproof". Just like all other supplements aren't. I can understand that you have a negative emotional connection to Ashwagandha because of your bad experience with it, but it's better not to allow something like that to cloud one's judgement and turn a discussion like this into an emotional and irrational argument.

I've had my own "negative" experiences with certain supplements here and there, and I can openly mention it, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to tell other people to stay away from it or try to give it a bad name. Those very same supplements work great for most other people, and if I can see that a client of mine will do great on it (based on tests, where his hormones and neurotransmitters are at, his diet, previous uses and responses to other supplements/herbs/drugs, etc.) then I can, by all means, recommend those supplements to him because chances are quite big that he's going to respond well to those supplements. And in "worse case scenario" if he doesn't, I just recommend stopping the suppelemnt/s and trying something else.

People get side effects with thyroid, coffee, niacin, niacinamide, progesterone, vitamin D, calcium, etc, etc, etc. ashwagandha is no different. And I say that because I know it's a very beneficial supplement (unlike Saw Palmetto). But people need to be more sensitive and cautious when experimenting with supplements/herbs and most of all, drugs because sooner or later they're not going to know what is causing what side effects until they read about other people's experiences and then they're going to blame it on the wrong thing because their symptoms "match up".

I couldn't care less if people are taking Ash or not. However, they should know of the risks and what it does. The only reason I replied to you is because you were stating that anhedonia or sexual side effects shouldn't be a cause for concern and are mostly placebo and a trend initiated by @Lokzo when that's clearly not the case and MULTIPLE people have long-lasting and persistent effects long after stopping it. A quick search online reveals that. It's a lot more common than in the supplements you've mentioned. It's clearly more serotonergic than dopaminergic, a comparison to Vitamin D is not warranted. It's a lot fairer to say SSRIs are to ashwagandha what Finasteride is to Saw Palmetto, that's why both of these herbs can result in issues similar to PSSD and PFS respectively. Since people on here are against SSRIs generally, they should probably be cautious of ashwagandha and if they had bad experiences with slightly serotonergic things in the past, they should probably stay away from it completely. I highly doubt it's an "emotional and irrational" take which I only have because of bad experiences with Ash.

 

[Lokzo]

Chiming in here @Hans

If it wasn't for @Hedgehog (who we have exchanged over 67 pages of messages over the past 3 years), I don't think I ever would've figured out how to reverse the damage from KSM-66.
Ashwagandha destroyed my ability to feel an orgasm. Hands down (no pun intended lol).

This was an obvious effect.

Having said that, I am sure there were other compounds that I experimented with that may have made things worse as well.. eg. Theanine or Berberine.

So, having said all that, I expect that you honour that ashwgandha has the potential to cause long lasting damage in susceptible individuals (5-HT1A polymorphisms?).

Thanks for your ability to figure out that Cyproheptadine was a powerful intervention for us @Hedgehog

 

[kaybb]

Thinking that Ashwagandha is worse than other supplements is only your perspective/opinion. It's not fact. There is no proof whatsoever that it has a higher risk than other herbal supplements.

Yes, Saw Palmetto is a prime example of a herbal supplement that men use to aid in multiple things such as, hair regrowth, prostate health, increasing T, etc. However, most men are very misinformed about Saw Palmetto and think that lowering DHT is a good idea.
Most men who use Saw Palmetto already have lots of underlying health problems and they don't Only use Saw Palmetto to try and fix these problems.
If your health is already busy declining by about 2% per year and you use saw palmetto for 5 years, after 5 years you'll be 10% worse off than when you started.
This can make anyone think that Saw Palmetto made them worse.

Ashwagandha, on the other hand, doesn't lower DHT or dopamine. Anhedonia is caused by low dopamine, glutamate and opioids and a skewed ratio between dopamine and serotonin. Most SSRI drugs increase only serotonin (and not dopamine) and that's how they can cause anhedonia. Ashwagandha increases both dopamine and serotonin. But many other things also increase serotonin, such as vitamin D, etc. Again, vitamin D increases both serotonin and dopamine, similar to Ashwagandha.


Based on countless studies and anecdotal evidence (including that from my own clients and my own experience), it's quite evident that the sides of herbal supplements go away much faster than that of drugs. However, some people can be the exception (just like with anything). This all depends on their state of health (before and while using the supplement), how long they used the supplement, what other supplements and drugs they've been using that could either worsen and/or make them sensitive to a certain herbal extract.

Don't quite get why you're stuck at the KSM-66 extract. I wasn't defending it or recommending it.
If anyone is planning on experimenting with ashwagandha, I would rather recommend trying the full-spectrum extract (as I would with most other herbs), as it's more "natural/whole".


I never said it was "bulletproof". Just like all other supplements aren't. I can understand that you have a negative emotional connection to Ashwagandha because of your bad experience with it, but it's better not to allow something like that to cloud one's judgement and turn a discussion like this into an emotional and irrational argument.

I've had my own "negative" experiences with certain supplements here and there, and I can openly mention it, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to tell other people to stay away from it or try to give it a bad name. Those very same supplements work great for most other people, and if I can see that a client of mine will do great on it (based on tests, where his hormones and neurotransmitters are at, his diet, previous uses and responses to other supplements/herbs/drugs, etc.) then I can, by all means, recommend those supplements to him because chances are quite big that he's going to respond well to those supplements. And in "worse case scenario" if he doesn't, I just recommend stopping the suppelemnt/s and trying something else.

People get side effects with thyroid, coffee, niacin, niacinamide, progesterone, vitamin D, calcium, etc, etc, etc. ashwagandha is no different. And I say that because I know it's a very beneficial supplement (unlike Saw Palmetto). But people need to be more sensitive and cautious when experimenting with supplements/herbs and most of all, drugs because sooner or later they're not going to know what is causing what side effects until they read about other people's experiences and then they're going to blame it on the wrong thing because their symptoms "match up".

If someone claims that ashwagandha gave them sexual and anhedonic problems but they've actually experimented with countless other herbs, supplements and drugs, to try and fix a problem that was already there, then they can't blame it on one herb. Even if you experiment with a herbal supplement, such as ashwagandha, on its own, every extract works through different mechanisms and if you don't know where your hormones and neurotransmitters are (at that time before experimenting), and you still have other supplements and drugs in your system, chances are, you're not going to get a "clean" ashwagandha effect, and sides will occur if you're using an extract that could lower what is already low and increase what is already high.

But this is true for most herbal supplements... the more people experiment with unnatural things (especially aphrodisiacs/sexual enhancing substances), the more likely they are to get sides, not only eventually from the unnatural substances but also from the herbal supplements because their hormones and neurotransmitters are already unstable.

How do you test your clients neurotransmitters? Blood tests?

 

[Hans]

How do you test your clients neurotransmitters? Blood tests?

Organic acid urine test mostly.

 

[kaybb]

Organic acid urine test mostly.

Can you measure serotonin accurately?

 

[Hans]

Can you measure serotonin accurately?

Yes, it's definitely accurate. But urine is mostly a marker for body serotonin, not so much brain. It's still impossible to directly test brain neurotransmitters as far as I know.

 

[kaybb]

Yes, it's definitely accurate. But urine is mostly a marker for body serotonin, not so much brain. It's still impossible to directly test brain neurotransmitters as far as I know.

Ok .. thank you.