How To Cook/Prepare Bone Broth?

narouz

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On the subject of dubious Peat information,
do you have any thoughts on how Peat says to cook
Bone Broth?

There is like one reference out there
saying that Peat says to cook bone broth for no longer than 3 hours
because after that it degrades the protein.

Trouble with that is:
have you ever tried to do that?
I've done it 2 or 3 times,
and it just simply does not seem to work:
that is not long enough to break down the collagen into gelatin.

And also, if you think about it,
Peat recommends, alternatively, prepared gelatin powder:
Isn't that cooked and heated out the wazoo--
I mean, cooked for a long time?

I've always suspected Peat might've meant to not cook the meaty portions
(of oxtails, for example)
for over 3 hours.
That would make sense.
 

charlie

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Made a new thread for this, narouz.

I have been doing mine 5 hours, and they come out really "gelatiny". I know Peat suggests 3 hours though like you said.
 

narouz

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Charlie said:
Made a new thread for this, narouz.

I have been doing mine 5 hours, and they come out really "gelatiny". I know Peat suggests 3 hours though like you said.

That's my experience--4 hours seems to be the minimum
to see the collagen breakdown.
If I stop after 3 hours
the very stuff the cooking is supposed to breakdown,
all that connective tissue, ligaments, cartilage, etc,
it simply is not broken down.

This may turn out to be unsubstantiated info from Peat,
like the "cooking rice in lye" thing....
 

ARK

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I make bone broth every week and I have tested lots of methods. I have made it for years. I have heard that people say Ray says to cook it for 3 hours. I have tried the 3 hours and it doesn't make the rich gelatinous broth that we are looking for. To get the minerals and the collagen out of the bones you need to cook this much longer. Three hours of cooking just doesn't produce the type of broth that we want. On my website I basically recommend Sally Fallon's recipe. In terms of bone broth- Sally knows what she is talking about. I cook mine for a minimum of 24 hours and normally up to 3 days. I make huge pots of it at one time. I do believe that Ray tends to eat more of the gelatin right now.. because he is busy. The Broth has one thing that the gelatin does not have and that is calcium. We are trying to get more calcium and in terms of healing the bone broth is the # 1 thing that you can eat. For people w/ serotonin issues.. the broth is key. Besides the broth recipe on my website here are some more ideas to get a broth that tastes good.. and drink this as much as you can.
PLEASE MAKE.. here is an idea.. add some greens like parsnip greens to in at the end.. and then discard it with the bones. Salt it well!


I use a mix of bones, mostly beef and a
little lamb and I put the bones in my pot to fill it by a third. I
then filled the pot to the top with water and let the water cook down
into the bones with the top ajar. The I add about a quart of water
and cooked the broth down again to the bones. That is it. Reducing
the broth twice seems to make the broth taste much richer and more
like gravy instead of dish water. I think that this way the broth tastes the best. I do cook this for 24-72 hours. My broth is like a solid jelly. I freeze small batches and use this daily. It works!
 

narouz

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ARK said:
I make bone broth every week and I have tested lots of methods. I have made it for years. I have heard that people say Ray says to cook it for 3 hours. I have tried the 3 hours and it doesn't make the rich gelatinous broth that we are looking for. To get the minerals and the collagen out of the bones you need to cook this much longer. Three hours of cooking just doesn't produce the type of broth that we want. On my website I basically recommend Sally Fallon's recipe. In terms of bone broth- Sally knows what she is talking about. I cook mine for a minimum of 24 hours and normally up to 3 days. I make huge pots of it at one time. I do believe that Ray tends to eat more of the gelatin right now.. because he is busy. The Broth has one thing that the gelatin does not have and that is calcium. We are trying to get more calcium and in terms of healing the bone broth is the # 1 thing that you can eat. For people w/ serotonin issues.. the broth is key. Besides the broth recipe on my website here are some more ideas to get a broth that tastes good.. and drink this as much as you can.
PLEASE MAKE.. here is an idea.. add some greens like parsnip greens to in at the end.. and then discard it with the bones. Salt it well!


I use a mix of bones, mostly beef and a
little lamb and I put the bones in my pot to fill it by a third. I
then filled the pot to the top with water and let the water cook down
into the bones with the top ajar. The I add about a quart of water
and cooked the broth down again to the bones. That is it. Reducing
the broth twice seems to make the broth taste much richer and more
like gravy instead of dish water. I think that this way the broth tastes the best. I do cook this for 24-72 hours. My broth is like a solid jelly. I freeze small batches and use this daily. It works!

Thank God for this input, ARK.
The supposed "3 hour Peat broth" has been driving me a little crazy! :)

I'll visit your website,
but my stumbling block now with bone broth
(aside from the cooking time thing)
is that the broth itself is...well...a little underwhelming in terms of taste.
It seems like it would make a great BASE for all kinds of soups or whatever,
but...I don't really know what I'm doing on that score--recipes.

In addition to a lot of salt added,
I've been experimenting with adding some vinegar and sugar, and butter,
shooting for a sweet and sour thang...not too bad.
I like your idea of adding the parsnips and greens and then removing.
But do you have any soup recipes using the broth as a foundation...?
 

ARK

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I heard an interview the other day with Dr Peat and he was talking about drinking the liquid from the greens. So adding some kale or turnip greens at the end and boiling them into the broth is a great idea to get some of the minerals from the greens( w/out the toxins and the PUFA). I add a good amount of salt to mine. Sometimes I will throw in some herbs just for the flavor. If you cook the bones the way I mentioned here (boil down the liquid first) plus I think that the broth tastes better with the lamb bones( sometimes chicken feet add some nice flavor too). I do think you will find it to be a better tasting broth. Back in the 1960's every cookbook had recipes that used broth- they put it in everything. It is just something that we forget to do. I use the broth in everything and I tell people to eat it all day long.. starting first thing in the morning and right before bed. If you are having trouble with sleep - salted bone broth is def worth a try. Truly healing food. There is no fat in this and it has protein that is easily digested. The glycine in the broth will heal your gut. Basically, you just have to make it and eat it as much as possible. Many people are intimidated to make it at first. You can't mess it up.. really easy. No matter what you do to it - It is still potent medicine. I think that we don't talk enough about the broth when it comes to Peaty food. It may not be as much fun as the oj- but, super important. :D
 

nwo2012

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Throw in some chicken necks or fish heads for some natural thryoid goodness too. Thats what Ive been doing.
 

ARK

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narouz- I have listened to what Ray has said about the broth and I do believe that he prefers cooking the broth for a couple of hours. I have recommended cooking the broth for 24 plus hours. So I have gone back into the kitchen to figure this out. Here is what I have found:
If I get very good knuckle bones and tail bones and I fill the pot with them - I can cook the broth for 6 hours and get a very good broth. I think that you really have to get very good bone( quality here counts) I used to leave the lid ajar on the pot as it was cooking. I have changed my mind about that ( sorry Julia!) I now cover the pot completely and I cook the broth for 6 hours. It is coming out very good and I do believe this is what Ray is recommending. So I will keep on experimenting and see if I can get the cooking time down to 3 hours ( not sure?) But, I now recommend cooking for 6 hours. Get good bones!! It is working!
 

judi

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I also used to cook my broth for 24 hours or at least overnight. But after an email exchange with RP (quoted below), I now cook it for no longer than 4 hours. Just like ARK says, it depends on the quality of the bones I get my hands on at the time but beef or veal joint bones make a very gelatinous broth. I fill about 3/4 of my pot with the bones, pour some white spirit vinegar over it and fill it to the top with water. Bring it to the boil with the lid off, skim the top when it starts boiling, put the lid on, turn it to the minimum, so it's just simmering, and then switch it off after 3.5-4 hours. Hardly any water evaporates in that time.

On how long a broth should be cooked:
It's mostly for the attached cartilage, ligaments, and tendons, and most of the gelatin is released in 3 or 4 hours. Excess cooking oxidizes nutrients, especially if there's marrow in the bone.

Which also means the bones should not be re-used. (I clarified that with RP too.)

On whether it would be ok to use chicken carcasses for broth:
In the US, chickens are fed arsenic to make them grow faster, and it concentrates in the bones; you should find out what the chicken feeding practice is in your area.
 

judi

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I haven't tested this yet but next time I get bones that don't look like they'll yield much gelatin, I'll have a go. Perhaps somebody who has tried it can chime in?

from http://www.thenutritioncoach.com.au/anti-ageing/get-in-some-gelatin/ (not all info on that site is good)

When making bone broths (a good source of some of these non-inflammatory amino acids including glycine), it’s important to simmer for no longer than 3 hours or you’ll degrade delicate amino acids, while increasing toxic free-radicals. A shorter simmer will however yield a less jelly-like consistency, so to increase the gelatinous nature of your broth but without damaging the nutrients, leave your broth (with bones in) to cool completely, lid on, on the bench over-night, before straining and refrigerating / freezing for storage.
 

charlie

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Judi, many thanks for posting that. Will give it a shot next time I make broth.
 

Isadora

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I never cooked my broth longer than three hours and I don't even understand what you guys are after...:)

Of course, I come from a different tradition.

For us, broth is a daily affair and it is cooked for one hour (chicken), two hours (pork) or maximum three hours (beef).

Vegetables are added as the broth cooks, in a certain order.

The result is delicious. Or maybe I grew up with that taste and I think it is...:)
 

kiran

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Isadora, how high heat do you use when cooking the beef broth?
 

Isadora

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First high heat, to help that foam rise to the surface.

You skim that, then you lower the heat to where there is just a gentle simmer.

Some people prefer to throw away that first water, with the foam and all, and start again, claiming that there are toxins in it. The Koreans do the same for their Pho. I'm not sure. Sometimes I throw it away, sometimes I just skim the foam.

Also, we use meat on the bones, and that is eaten -- the gelatin on it, the chewy parts next to the bone -- those are delicious, with salt, separately, and a boiled potato with lots of butter :)

Depending on what you add to it, sometimes it will gel in the fridge, other times it won't. Anyway, we eat it in the next one or two days, it is not something you just keep in the fridge forever. At most, three days, and we bring it to a boil the third day, we don't just reheat it.
 

Dutchie

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judi said:
I haven't tested this yet but next time I get bones that don't look like they'll yield much gelatin, I'll have a go. Perhaps somebody who has tried it can chime in?

from http://www.thenutritioncoach.com.au/anti-ageing/get-in-some-gelatin/ (not all info on that site is good)

When making bone broths (a good source of some of these non-inflammatory amino acids including glycine), it’s important to simmer for no longer than 3 hours or you’ll degrade delicate amino acids, while increasing toxic free-radicals. A shorter simmer will however yield a less jelly-like consistency, so to increase the gelatinous nature of your broth but without damaging the nutrients, leave your broth (with bones in) to cool completely, lid on, on the bench over-night, before straining and refrigerating / freezing for storage.

I also saw in a YT-vid once,that said that if you cook longer than 3hours there's some MSG substance like formed?
 

kiran

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Isadora, thanks so much for that info!

One more question, do you add vegetables to the broth at all?
 

Isadora

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Yes, always.

After you clean up the foam, you can start adding them -- for chicken and pork, especially. For beef, you can wait an hour or so.

A few carrots, one onion, a piece of celery root, other root veggies if you want.

There are two main styles you may go for:

1. The French style, in which you mostly make a soup with the vegetables kept whole. It's the fast, easy way. Once the soup is done, you may throw them away or eat them with the meat, separately. In this case you need to pay attention to their degree of doneness -- either take them out before they become totally mushy and useless, or put them in late enough so that doesn't happen. The remaining soup is less fun, but closer to what you guys call "beef broth".

2. The Romanian/Balkan style, in which vegetables go in already cut up, and then are eaten with the soup and pieces of meat. More like a Pho thing, minus the noodles. In this case, tomatoes and peppers are added towards the end, for flavor and color. You could add vinegar if you like it a bit sour. The traditional way is to add sauerkraut juice, but that one is off limits in a Peat diet, I guess, because of the lactic acid. As final touches, you can add parsley and one or two eggs, Chinese style. Some like to add cream as well when serving.

I'll post a few recipes with ingredients and stuff, if you guys are interested, but these are the principles. Here is a photo recipe, maybe you can use Google to translate?
 

Asimov

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The issue that I struggle with is that degraded protein structures are actually easier to absorb and more bioavailable, not worse. Human stomachs are terrible at breaking down the tertiary and quaternary structure of proteins. Secondary structures can be handled by stomach acid, primary structures are good to go. Breaking it down even to the most basic protein structure will make it better for you.

EVEN IF you manged to cook the hell out of some protein and completely degraded it until the amino acid broke apart, you'd have some carboxolic acid and some random amines. Well....who cares...your kidneys would filter this stuff out without a problem.

There is an issue with an increase in free-radicals and carcinogens anytime you cook something, but the jist is that it's just a simple trade off. ANY cooking makes free-radicals and carcinogens, BUT the advantage that you get from cooking far outweighs the negatives of the toxins. Slow/low cooking specifically produces an absolute minimum amount of toxic byproducts compared to hotter, faster methods of cooking.

Overall I'd say it's just a matter of trade offs. Are you really drinking bone broth for protein? No...you're drinking it for nutrients locked deep inside of bones, connective tissue, and glandular tissue with the least amount of negative byproducts. The BEST way to get that out is to cook the ever-loving hell out of it for hours and hours on low, nearly imperceptible heat.
 

Isadora

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What do you guys think about pressure cooking?

Chicken broth takes 20 minutes and beef is good from 35' -- one hour, max, if you like it "fondant" and all the gelatin leached into the soup. I prefer gelatinous pieces like oxtail, etc. "al dente", personally, and don't really care about how gelatinous the broth is. But even so, from my experience, the liquid is more gelatinous too when I use a pressure cooker -- perhaps because I tend to use less water.

I used to do that a lot and I am tempted to start again. It's a huge gain of time and it saves me from putting up with the humming of the hood for hours in the background...

This article almost convinced me.
 
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