How To Convince People They're Wrong

Terma

Member
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
1,063
You can make them believe they found or reasoned the information themselves with breadcrumbs. Still a lot of work. Fire-and-forget memes replaced newspaper cartoonists and comedy can insult anonymously while defusing shame, for one or two topics it's the only thing that works and sometimes they have useful information people found, but they have to be really really good with the web oversaturated, seriously top-shelf comedy. It has to be as mentally effortless as possible for them to spread the info, insert-able into Yt videos, and people repost memes in part because they think it gives them clout or makes them edgy, so you exploit internet addiction, social weakness, anxiety at their all-time high. Never imagined I'd be talking about this seriously again but when ***t hits the fan and @Amazoniac just proved they work. Don't behave like a preacher, my mistake. Don't use labels like "maskers" in outside discussions or even memes, those are divisive, call things what they are, ignore their terms unless you can use them ironically or sarcastically successfully and not too much, you'll look immature and influencible. Teres is close to my experiences. May read that book. Art and stories yes. You get some millennials/young (rarely seen old guys do this) who literally believe in silencing speech using any means necessary. Reputation everything. If you walk in somewhere you have to be Jack Sparrow and make it look like you're on some edge looking out for your own interests so you don't put the pamphlet in their hands, leave it on the floor of a bathroom stall half under something, not sure the form. I'll probably never talk about Gates, I find it risky, see him more as a market facilitator, so at least I would leave that to a separate venue from science or people like Masterjohn and Rogan can still discredit you to others, pedo aside. Yt is worst comment format I've ever seen, people only go there to get lost in gladiator arenas because that's what they want people to do, why would they fix it? Allows them to control external links. Non-exhaustive non-authoritative random observations, guess it's in my interest to write, there's plenty you can do if you have the time, everyone loves an artist, try to make it fun for yourself first, it rubs off with long-haul advantage.
 

pepsi

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
175
Location
Texas
I used to be on the Paleo diet and read paleo forums. There was this one member who kept posting how
great sugar was and mentioning this guy Dr Peat. Everybody told him to leave and stop spewing those
lies on their paleo forum, but the member kept posting. After noticing problems arise from paleo eating, I
started researching this members recommendations on sugar. This is how I discovered Dr Peats work.
I want to tell that person thank you for persevering alone when everyone else was against him.

One of the reasons I was drawn to research this persons recommendations was because he never
argued back, unlike the other members who acted as immature children. He was very neutral, just
presenting the information, he didn't seem like he had an agenda or that he was right
and was superior. I think this is key because if you seem like you have an agenda to persuade
someone that your beliefs are right and theirs are wrong, red flags will go up.

This is just like how Dr Peat presents his information, he wants people make up their own mind.

All you see is the negative comments, but there are probably people who you have affected and ignited a new spark in.
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2015
Messages
92
Yes Pepsi, progress can be made but it’s likely to be based upon long term consistency rather than getting involved in a shouting match.

And those that might be persuaded by your points are unlikely to declare it publicly.
 

Lollipop2

Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2019
Messages
5,267
To add to my first post in this thread, I also learned how arrogant people can be when they believe that their cause is somehow saving the planet/humanity. It's a lofty position that few are willing to concede any ground on and puts you in the role of the 'immoral' even before any of your points have even been considered.
+1 Have seen this often.
 

Lollipop2

Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2019
Messages
5,267
I used to be on the Paleo diet and read paleo forums. There was this one member who kept posting how
great sugar was and mentioning this guy Dr Peat. Everybody told him to leave and stop spewing those
lies on their paleo forum, but the member kept posting. After noticing problems arise from paleo eating, I
started researching this members recommendations on sugar. This is how I discovered Dr Peats work.
I want to tell that person thank you for persevering alone when everyone else was against him.
Fascinating. Good for you for being open to question the truth! Glad you found Ray. I also came from Paleo and now feel better than ever.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
@tankasnowgod has done an AMAZING (and largely thankless THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!) job of bringing facts to the Covid-19 posts here...but how many people will have their minds changed from it?

I have long admired @tankasnowgod's tireless dedication but the fact is that most people don't care about facts and facts don't change their mind.

edited to add: @tankasnowgod has helped me immeasurably to support my opinions or help reshape them, so thank you again for your tireless dedication!

Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad something I said helped you out!

The one thing that bothered me from the beginning was how many people were willing to believe predictions, without any proof or even asking any questions.
 

lvysaur

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
Messages
2,286
Fool's errand. Why even convince others that they're wrong? When somebody is obviously and incontrovertibly wrong about something (this is important because most topics, especially in health, are debatable) I correct them, and upon continued argument I simply ignore them.
After noticing problems arise from paleo eating, I
started researching this members recommendations on sugar. This is how I discovered Dr Peats work.

For me, it was his article on fish oil/lipofuscin. Had those symptoms to a T while taking krill oil. The fact that literally no other source on the internet connected those two things convinced me that he had knowledge that others did not.
Yt is worst comment format I've ever seen, people only go there to get lost in gladiator arenas because that's what they want people to do, why would they fix it?
Reddit is even worse. Downvote button = the same circlejerk but 2x stronger.
Classic forum-style is the best format.
 
Last edited:

lvysaur

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
Messages
2,286
Here's an interesting case study on how people process their incorrectness.
Americans 'remember' opposing the Iraq War | YouGov

In a 2015 poll, most Americans claimed to have opposed the Iraq war in 2003: 47/38% oppose/support
But in the actual data from 2003, the ratio was 34/63% oppose/support

Some polls from 2003 find a support% higher than 70%: Seventy-Two Percent of Americans Support War Against Iraq

Of course elderly would have died over the 12 year gap the polls were taken, but this is shown unimportant by the 2003 US population pyramid

Even if seniors were vehement supporters of the war, young people were the primary reason for the 2003 polls.
In 2003, ages 18-52 were 25% of the population. In 2015, 40% of them admitted that they supported the war.
Ages 53+ were 9% of the population in 2003. In 2015, 45% admitted supporting the war. Of course that 53+ demographic doesn't account for people who were dead in 2015 and couldn't be polled.

So it's mathematically impossible for the data to be skewed by old people dying, just in case someone brings that possibility up. Even if elderly were 100% for the Iraq invasion, it would bring the overall support to roughly 49%, not the astronomical 60-80% that was observed in 2003.


Thus the conclusion is that ~1/4 of the population are lying on an anonymous poll, and more importantly lying to themselves about blatantly obvious and recollectible political opinions from their own personal lives. Interestingly, democrats and blue states were slightly more likely to fudge their memory (30% as opposed to 20% for republicans)

The way to convince people that they're wrong (in general) is not via argumentation, no matter how polite and reasoned and "kid-gloved" that argumentation is. The way to do it is by changing the emotional foundation of why that opinion was formed in the first place. This is usually by having key leadership figures endorse/condemn certain actions, or by having the "herd" (where the herd is defined on political/ethnic/racial/religious lines) change its opinion en masse.

Both of these things take insurmountable amounts of resources, and in the second case time, to do. Better to embrace individualism and seek out the rare few who are open to reality.
 
Last edited:

inurendotoxin

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2018
Messages
113
Location
UK
With one or two justifiable exceptions, these are a few of my 'red flags' of an authoritarian mindset, (and/or a 'reduced' metabolic state);

1. The compulsion or urge to re-align the views and beliefs of others in accordance with your own.
2. Tribe mentality (or ''group identity" if you prefer); ie, "them" and "us".
3. The assumption/self-assurance that one's own views are in some way superior or correct.

Just my opinion, ofc. :innocent:

Aside: Would recommend any of Jay Dyer's content re presuppositional arguments. Naturally you are invited (and encouraged) to disagree. :wink:
 

pauljacob

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
435
Ask them what it would take to change their mind.
I like this. Intelligent people will give a cogent answer. Mobs and Shills will retort that nothing will change their minds, and I'd retort "Then you must be brain dead!"
 

pauljacob

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
435
It's a waste of time trying to change minds because thanks to Google every one is an instant Einstein merely by searching online, even though 90% of what they get is thinly camouflaged marketing/propaganda/vested interest copy. I think it was Mark Twain who said critically "I've made up my mind, so don't confuse me with the facts."
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom